Tuning Software or Aftermarket ECU

[softballnrd27]

Ok so I have been doing a lot of research and I have tried all the simulated software but I'm still not set on one in particular. I'm not trying to start a bashing thread nor am I going to bash any brand. So far the Holley software seems to be the most user friendly, with MS3 pro(TunerStudio) next and then HPTuners.
My combo is a 04 5.3, 243 heads, Lunati 60510 Cam, 4l80e in a 1973 C10. I will have a turbo later on down the road but I need a tune now bc I am going from a th350 to the 4l80e and I want to learn to tune my own stuff.
Price wise the HPTuners wins but the Dominator/MS3 pro has more features compared to HPTuners.
HpTuner $649
Dominator $2,000+
MS3 Pro with harness $1,600
I'm looking for input good or bad for each from first hand experience.

[BR3W CITY]

The Holley has the most "auto" features, with its abilities to solve its own learning curve, but its expensive and has a few things it doesn't support. Also, people mention a few things like dual-wideband useage for fuel trims, but those things are actually doable in HPT and 'Squirt with the right user behind the wheel. I've heard people say that the Atomic setups are actually similar to the Holley from an installation perspective.

I think HPT is a bit easier to use than MS3, but I've spent less time in MS-ecospace so I'm biased there. A downside to HP being the credits system, but I don't think thats crazy when compared more directly to the Diablo/SCT/CRM tunes, not compared to the more standalone tuning systems.

I think on LS motors especially, its hard to argue with what HPt can do. Your only limits are that of the ECM you put it on, and the GENIII ECM's are IMO one of the most solid (Basic) ECM's that existed. If you REALLY wanted to get crazy on "Special" features, there are ways to retrograde the GenIV ECM's to gain the more advanced CanBUS control and things like VvE.

If I was building something on a GenI or aftermarket legacy-blocks (or anything Mopar) and making BIG power, I'd be going for the Holley.

I'd go MS3 on oddball and smaller projects on which the cheaper piecemeal ECM/harness setups, or grafting an OE injection system into an application in which it wouldn't ever exit. Those setups can run as little as $300 for old-tech stuff.

You left out Haltech Fueltech, but those both are far right field for the context of discussion.

[Heavymetl]

If you can swing it, aftermarket all day every day.

I tuned a 4.8 Jeep TJ LS swap last week, and while it turned out great, I really hate dealing with HPTuners. Way too many tables and complexity for what should be a basic function.

I've got the Holley EFI on 2 of my vehicles, and the background intelligence in the software makes tuning a breeze. I highly recommend the Holley, although I do want to buy MS3 Gold box for an upcoming project to get familiar with it's features.

[Willie Makeit]

another vote for HP Tuners

[Hart_Rod]

I like HPTuners, although I think EFI live is similar. The tuning process is the same, regardless of what software you get. Pick which ever user interface you like and dig in!

[Matt Cramer]

I did the design work on the MS3-Pro drop on harness, so I'm a bit biased there. The harness was actually designed on a '72 pickup with an LS swap. There are several advantages it has over a stock ECU if you're thinking about running boost.

1. Individual cylinder tuning. The stock ECU does have individual cylinder trim tables, but I do not believe there's a way for HP Tuners to access them. And the trim settings are right for a naturally aspirated motor, but lean out some of the cylinders under boost. (You can run it richer than ideal to at least avoid killing a cylinder, but that's not ideal).

2. Built in boost control. I think there may be some settings that provide limited boost control in HP Tuners, but with MS3-Pro you get closed loop boost control, boost by gear, the ability to pull boost if it detects wheel speed, and more.

[Wasted Income]

I have run all 3 at one point or another.

I started out tuning stock ECUs with EFILive (which for this discussion is equal to HPT). It sucks. Takes forever to flash, no realtime wideband closed loop, the data logging sucks IMO.

Moved then to Megasquirt, from our friend Matt Cramer via a MS3-X and trans controller. I had issues that we could never nail down...even after a year of troubleshooting and work from my brother who is a MS whiz kid. I liked the interface, and from what I hear they've come a long way in some areas such as auto trans control improvements, rolling anti-lag, and just heard today, drive by wire capability.
That said, I would certainly consider another MS in the future.

Currently I'm running a Holley Dominator. Works pretty well, and is intuitive for a gearhead like me to setup all the I/Os and stuff. However, aside from the closed loop learn, I'm not sure what all these "auto" features are that they Holley supposedly has? lol

What most people don't understand, is that NONE of the "self tuning" ecus are truly self learning. That's lesson #1

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by Wasted Income

no realtime wideband closed loop

I don't think this is 100% true. Afaik there is no "setting" for running dual-wb as closed loop feedback for trims. I do believe that it is possible with a custom transfer function. We've been running the HP Pro which has always been adequate enough for logging (Sans laptop), and since HP makes that little Nguage now it has its internal logging capability as well.

If you don't use HP pro, logging off something smaller like an LM2 box can be imported pretty easily.

[softballnrd27]

After talking with Matt via email/pm and what Wasted Income has to say I think I am going to give the MS3-Pro a shot. It has just about everything that the dominator offers for about $1,000 less.

[softballnrd27]

I know there is a learning curve when it comes to EFI tuning regardless of the system/software used but I have just heard that it's a steeper curve with HP and that is one of the main reasons I am choosing MS3-Pro w/microsquirt to control the 4l80e as well. I've been playing around in all of their software the past few days and HP is a little more confusing than the tunerstudio(to me) Holley's software is really nice but once again the price comes into play. I can get the whole MS3-pro system to include harness and microsquirt trans control for less than the dominator ECU alone with the same features.

[Heavymetl]

Originally Posted by softballnrd27

I know there is a learning curve when it comes to EFI tuning regardless of the system/software used but I have just heard that it's a steeper curve with HP and that is one of the main reasons I am choosing MS3-Pro w/microsquirt to control the 4l80e as well. I've been playing around in all of their software the past few days and HP is a little more confusing than the tunerstudio(to me) Holley's software is really nice but once again the price comes into play. I can get the whole MS3-pro system to include harness and microsquirt trans control for less than the dominator ECU alone with the same features.

I really want to give MS3-Pro a shot soon. I enjoy the Holley but it sure isn't cheap.

As for EFI tuning learning curve, aftermarket systems are way easier. Things like setting the IAC, easy 0-100 numbers and a nice simple table and graph to manipulate in real time. HPTuners and factory PCM uses a difficult lb/min airflow table and you must make changes, flash, key off/on, restart, data log, and look for an IAC count in the appropriate range. It takes at least 2 minutes (at best!) to do what you can do in 5 seconds with the Holley or Tunerstudio software.

[racecougar]

Have any of you used the SCT Pro Racer Package (Advantage and Livelink) with a LS setup? I've been using the PRP since '06 on two of my other cars (a blown 4V Modular and a NA 2V Modular), so that would win points for familiarity and cost savings in my case. Just looking for any "watch outs" if anyone here has used PRP on a LS setup before. I plan to start out with a stock 5.3L/4L60E swap from a '02 Suburban, to be replaced later with something a little healthier (thinking either a NA bigger-cube LS build or throw FI at the 5.3L).

[racecougar]

Just thought I'd check in one more time regarding SCT PRP. We're getting very close to that point now.

[BR3W CITY]

I don't know anyone using SCT for Chevy's honestly, aside from a few guys who ran them on Duramax's a while. The vast majority are on HPt or Efi, or using something more standalone like the MS or eControl packages.

[aknovaman]

The ms3 and pro version are more than capable of running your combo. This is a setup my buddy ran on his 68 mustang fastback. Issue was not the ms3 but the chassis wiring which I fixed. The traction control is awesome. Lift the front tires or spin the rears on launch and it retards timing and lowers boost till traction is regained. Fully adjustable. Super simple software and adaptable to a ton of applications. 780hp at 8 psi. Mid 8's at about 160 in the quarter mile and idles very smooth at 850 rpm in spite of it being a solid lifter 427 with 220lb injectors.


https://youtu.be/C4D4lY90_tc