47-55.1 235 Replacement required

[bootman49]

So about a year ago I convinced my brother to purchase a 235 from a 1960ish Chevrolet Impala as opposed to rebuilding a 1952 235 that his 49 1 ton came with. Nobody inspected it and a cover was thrown over until just recently. How's this for a surprise?

Weld the crack or should I be looking for another motor or short block?

[mick53]

Did it freeze?

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by mick53

Did it freeze?

We don't know. We don't recall spilling any water when we unloaded it. Sure looks like it froze.

[Quindel3100]

There could be more internal damaged, i would look for another,they arent that rare to go thru all the trouble of repairing that mess.

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by Quindel3100

There could be more internal damaged, i would look for another,they arent that rare to go thru all the trouble of repairing that mess.

I'm thinking to find a rebuildable motor or block and transfer all the internal parts.

[mikebte]

Originally Posted by bootman49

I'm thinking to find a rebuildable motor or block and transfer all the internal parts.

2nd on the block. Should be able to find a new block without many issues or maybe even a complete.

[dsraven]

that is what a frozen block looks like. it is a boat anchor now. to have a crack that long repaired would be expensive and then you are taking a chance on a leak afterwards. one way to repair is to arc weld with the correct rod alloys etc. the block is cast iron, not steel, so a different process is required in order to reduce the possibility of the cast cracking next to the weld due to expansion/contraction rates of the dissimilar metals (block and rod material plus whatever alloy is formed with the molten weld bead). the block is thoroughly cleaned to get rid of any oils etc that may have leached into the metal, then prepped by v grooving the crack and ensuring the "ends" are found. then it is placed in an oven and brought up to a high temp, then welded and placed back in the oven to be brought back down to room temp slowly. the reason for the oven is to heat the entire casting up to 1200 deg so the weld will coll slowly and reduce the possibility of residual weld stresses which can cause the crack to extend out past the weld as the part cools down or cause another crack right next to the weld. some will peen the weld right after the bead is laid down and this can help the stress level. cast iron has a high carbon content compared to steel so it is brittle. the critical temp for cast is about 1400 deg. welding is considerably higher than that so it is critical to be aware of the proper process when welding. short weld beads are recommended with time between beads spent in the oven to keep overall temps uniform to allow the bead to cool slowly. the weld area is usually harder material than the cast iron block and so different expansion rates will always be the issue as well as the stresses caused by welding. obviously a low current bead would be recommended so the heat of welding would be less. if you can imagine the labour hours to weld a crack like your engine has you can see that it would be cost prohibitive. welding cast is usually left for those high dollar or hard to find cast iron parts. here is a link that would possibly better explain the processes and help you understand why it is expanesive to weld cast. theother problem is that the engine really should be checked for warpage after something like this happens. first there is the misalignment that could happen simply from the ice expansion inside the block that caused the crack in the first place, then, if welded, the distortion possibly caused from the high heat and welding. a check to ensure that long crankshaft is sitting an a parallel bore would definately be high on my list of to do's before assembling.

https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-c...on-detail.aspx

the other way to repair cast iron is called cold metal stitching. it is basically started by tieing the crack area together with a strips of metal drilled into the casting at 90 deg to the crack. then starting at one end of the crack and drilling a hole into the crack so the hole would extend through the casting or at least past the bottom of the crack. a tapered threaded plug is installed and then another hole is drilled, partially overlapping the plug, and another plug is installed into that hole. the process continues until the crack is completely stitched back together. this process would be quite expensive to use on a crack as long as what you have there and is not really that reliable on something like an engine block that is prone to high temperature differentials. like cold winter day to hot engine after a big pull on, say, a long hill where the engine temp goes up to almost boiling water temp. here is a couple of links that better describe the system with a couple of pics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_stitching

https://www.metalockengineering.com/...tal-stitching/

end of the day? cheaper and better to replace the engine or at least the block.

[dsraven]

compounding the issue, of course, would be if there is an oil gallery in or near the crack site or if the crack reaches through to affect, say, a cam bearing bore or a main bearing cap seat or bolt area. sorry man. cheaper to take the loss and grab a good runner (seen running with the appropriate checks done, cooling system pressure check, compression dry and wet, oil pressure cold and hot etc) or rebuilt with warranty.
some will say to fix with jb weld. I would say sure, try it for the short term but you know it is a leak waiting to happen and personally I wouldn't feel secure doing a highway trip with it especially if the crack is over a pressure area, like the cooling system. a crack has 2 sides, inside and out. you can skim/plug the outside with some sort of goop but there is still the back side to worry about.
use it for parts if required.
if you still have the original engine from the truck I would suggest to dissassemble that, have it properly dunked/cleaned and checked and a quote to rebuild. or use it for a core. 235 heads also have issues with cracking so if you are planning on a short block you really should dissassemble, clean and check the head as well. if planning on a rebuild don't get rid of any of the parts until the rebuild is complete. you may need a head or some other part you can scrounge from one of the other engines.
whatever you do, thoroughly clean and check all the parts. there are spray crack check products available as well as any good engine shop would usually have a better system for checking cracks, magnaflux, die penetrant, ultrasonic, pressure or vacuum testing are a few.

here is a good article that talks about engine cracks and checks/repair methods probably better than I can explain it.

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...nd-correction/

[whitedog76]

I totally agree with DSRAVEN. A little too close to the main oil galley for comfort.

235's pop up every once in a while. Usually it's somebody getting rid of a complete chassis. I would advise finding a running one to start out with. They are way too expensive to rebuild otherwise. I've had 3 235's over the years that came through my garage. All of them had issues, so I'm now doing a late model swap.

Anyhow, I would keep your Impala head. The car heads had slighlty better compression than the trucks. Also, keep all your brackets, etc... Keep all your rocker arm parts straight, there was a few variations.

[dsraven]

here is a nice little article with some history and a bit of the same circumstance with regards to finding a good runner and things to look for. the other thing you could check into is a later model engine but the engine mounts would likely be on the side versus the front and they may also be a tad longer so fan clearance could become an issue. something to watch out for would be the 6volt to 12 volt engine flywheel ring gear tooth count and a matching starter. there are differences and if it isn't right it will grind badly

https://www.rodauthority.com/tech-st...-do-we-do-now/

[dsraven]

a little inline 6 info if you haven't seen it yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevro...aight-6_engine

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by whitedog76

I totally agree with DSRAVEN. A little too close to the main oil galley for comfort.

235's pop up every once in a while. Usually it's somebody getting rid of a complete chassis. I would advise finding a running one to start out with. They are way too expensive to rebuild otherwise. I've had 3 235's over the years that came through my garage. All of them had issues, so I'm now doing a late model swap.

Anyhow, I would keep your Impala head. The car heads had slighlty better compression than the trucks. Also, keep all your brackets, etc... Keep all your rocker arm parts straight, there was a few variations.

Good information, thanks. Any recommendations of a good manual for rebuilding the 3rd gen 235? Might as well get one on order now.

[whitedog76]

I don't know about a manual you can buy, but here's a link to a 1960 service manual. Get your printer loaded with paper.

https://www.canadianmilitarypattern....e%20Manual.htm

Over at the Stovebolt, here's a rebuild guide for the 261, most information should cross over.

https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/e...ild/index.html

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by whitedog76

I don't know about a manual you can buy, but here's a link to a 1960 service manual. Get your printer loaded with paper.

https://www.canadianmilitarypattern....e%20Manual.htm

Over at the Stovebolt, here's a rebuild guide for the 261, most information should cross over.

https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/e...ild/index.html

Thank you,

[dsraven]

it's best to get it ALL apart, cleaned and then take it to the engine shop to be measured. most of these guys spend a good amount of coin in their precision measuring tools and appreciate it when the engine comes to them fairly grease free.
if you haven't had an engine apart in a while, or never, you should start with a car wash trip to get rid of most of the larger deposits. I say this because if you don't know the engine then you maybe don't know where all the bolts are and they can be hidden under a layer of goo. next, find a spot where you can work and spread stuff out. have a few boxes ready for parts and a felt pen to mark the boxes. some gallon paint cans with small holes punched in the bottom work well for parts catchers and when you get it to the engine shop they will love you because they simply get put in the "hot tank" as is so no problems with getting the parts mixed up while in the tank with other peoples parts, plus, when they come out of the tank the parts are easily hosed off while inside the paint can so nothing gets lost. this is assuming you have already drained the engine oil. next block the engine up so it can't fall over on you (these things are heavy) and start by removing the bell housing, clutch etc from the rear (clutch has to come off first, then flywheel so you can access the bell housing to engine bolts). if you have an engine stand then now would be the time to get it mounted up. remember that this is a tall engine and a heavy one too so make sure to use the rotation stop pin so it doesn't spin on you while you're working on it.
next, remove the pulley assembly from the front (you may need a puller AND the crankshaft protector part that keeps the puller bolt from damaging the crankshaft) and any accessories like generator and bracket, water pump, distributor, coil, carb, fuel pump, oil filter can (if used), intake and exhaust manifolds, any sensors left in the engine, oil dipstick tube, engine draft tube, thermostat and housing, spark plugs etc. now you should be down to the bare bones. it's time to remove the tin work starting with the valve cover and lifter cover. you can also remove the timing cover as well. next it's time to take the rocker shaft assembly off. it is a good idea to keep mated parts together here so keep track of what pushrod went where and also which end is facing up. what I have done in the past is use a box large enough to keep all the pushrods in and deep enough so you can close the box, push a rod through the cardboard top and the rod will be kept resonably safe from damage or getting mixed up. all the rods go in as oriented from the engine, so the bottom of the rod is pushed through the lid and the top of the rod is sticking out. make a mark on the box, physically, so if the box gets grease or oil impregnated you still know which end of the box is front. the same goes for the lifter because they need to go back on the same cam lobe they wore in on. again, a box with some cut outs or a 2x4 with some holes drilled (not all the way through) works good to keep things in order. for the rocker shaft, you will also need to keep the rockers oriented in the same position on the shaft. when you dissassemble the shaft you can use a piece of wire to keep all the parts on. keep them in order and mark the front by placing something, like a washer or nut, on the wire next to the very front rocker on the wire. once you have all the valve train dissassembled and stowed it is time to remove the head. start by loosening the head bolts in the center of the head and working in a circular pattern towards the outside. these heads are quite long so it is best to do it this way to eliminate as much possible distortion as you can. have a couple of pieces of wood ready to lay the head down on when you take it off, this will reduce the possibility of scratching the head gasket surface. sometimes the head gasket can be stuck pretty good and you may need to use a prybar in a head bolt hole to get the head loose, just be carefull not to get over ambitious and end up with the head sitting on your toes. once the head is off you can also remove the gasket and check each piston to see if there is still a mark on it to denote forward facing. now is a great time to ridge ream the wear mark from the top of each cylinder. you will need a special tool for this but some parts stores will rent or loan them out and if not the tool is fairly cheap anyway. the ridge at the top of each cylinder needs to be removed so that when the pistons are pushed out past the ridge the piston rings won't get caught up on the ridge and break a piston in the "ring land" area (the small spaces of piston that is between the ring grooves). once that is all done, then roll the engine over for access to the oil pan etc. if working on the floor a piece of plywood works well as a base for the engine to sit on to protect the head gasket surface from getting scratched up. next is to remove the oil pan, then the oil pump pick up tubing and the oil pump. the pump may end up being a leaker once it is unbolted because it is still full of oil so a 5 gallon bucket is nice to place it and the pick up tube into, cleaner shop floor that way. next you will need to look at the bearing caps on all the main and rod bearings to see if they are marked. each rod cap should have a number stamped into it to designate which cylinder it came from and each rod should also have a number punched into it right next to that. it is so the rod and cap stay oriented the same way. the main bearing caps also need to be marked from front to rear and also some sort of designation to say which way faces forward. now you will need a couple of short pieces of rubber hose that will fit fairly tightly over the rod bolts and be a little bit longer than the bolts. this is so that when the nuts are undone and the bearing cap is removed the rubber hose can be placed over each rod bolt and that will eliminate the chance of the rod bolt bumping the crankshaft and leaving a mark on the journal as it goes past when the piston is pushed out of the cylinder. once everything is marked correctly you can start by undoing a rod. I usually start at the front and work back just for simplicity sake but it doesn't really matter. rotate the engine so the rod for your cylinder is as far out of the engine as possible. this makes it easy to work an and also leaves less chance of marking the crankshaft while pushing out the piston later. undo the rod cap nuts, remove the cap and bearing shell, then place the rubber hoses over each rod bolt that is sticking out of the rod. use a length of wooden broom stick handle, or similar, to push the piston out the top of the engine or, if the engine is sitting on the head surface, push the piston as far down as possible. leave the rubber hoses on the bolts until the piston is out of the hole and the bearing cap can be placed back on the rod again. this will lessen the possibility of marking a cylinder bore with the rod bolt as it bounces around in there. next the crankshaft can be rotated to the next cylinder and the procedure copied until all the rods are undone and the pistons pushed down towards the head end the cylinders. when done this and all the pistons have been removed and rod caps placed back on, the next step is to remove the camshaft. it needs to be rotated to show 2 screws, through the 2 holes in the cam gear, that hold the cam thrust plate to the engine. remove the screws, place them somewhere so you won't lose them, then the cam should pull straight out the front of the engine but will require support as it comes out. you may want to check the timing marks before doing this so you understand how they line up for when the assembly part comes. behind the camshaft gear is a flat plate that is held on with a couple of flat head (usually) bolts. you may need an impact driver to get the bolts out but once the plate is removed it will leave access to the crankshaft for easy removal. once the plate is removed you can remove the main bearing caps using the same method as the cylinder head bolts, start in the middle and work your way out to avoid any stressing/warpage of the block. when the main caps are all removed the crankshaft can be lifted straight out of the block. after this is complete you can go around the block and remove the frost plugs, oil gallery plugs etc so when it is cleaned the wash tech will be able to get any crud out of all the passageways. just be aware that.
this is all "off the cuff" since I haven't had a 235 apart for many years. here is a couple of links to sites that have some good info.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235


http://chev235guy.blogspot.com/2015/...evolution.html


this is one from lowrider magazine, it is the assembly section so there is probably a dissassembly section as well. maybe worth some digging around if it interests you.

https://www.lowrider.com/how-to-tech...ild-235_engine

[bootman49]

Update on the motor saga. Found a guy doing a v-8 swap with a good 235. His price, $125 complete with 3 speed. Well I gave it some thought-not. Its at the engine builders and in the machines. I am using the head off the engine that froze because it is fresh and has seats installed for no lead gas.


To add to the fun I made a promise to another guy that if he delivered a motor he had for sale I would pay his asking price for his 235 short block. He called me while he was on the road down from Milwaukee to Joliet,IL and I just picked up the $125 deal. I didn't want to tell him to turn around So, I now own (2) 235" motors. After the machine shop is done with the first build I will then try to sell off the leftover parts including the rotating assembly from the cracked block, 2 bell housings with clutch's, 3 speed trans, intakes, exhaust's, head, oil pans, and so on. I went from nothing to a garage full of stuff. And a complete HO52 5:14 axle assembly.

[weim55]

The Stovebolt website just put up a complete start to finish how to rebuild a 235-261.

Steve weim55 Colorado

[dsraven]

a few ID tips in case you find a "core" somewhere and not sure exactly what it is

https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/e...tification.htm

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by dsraven

a few ID tips in case you find a "core" somewhere and not sure exactly what it is

https://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/e...tification.htm

Thanks for the information, I will be watching all the usual listing places to buy a replacement.

[mr48chev]

Good 235 blocks aren't that hard to find or that expensive. I'd pull that engine down and sort out everything I can save and swap to a new block.

Around here the heads bring more money than the rest of the engine because they used up most of the 235 heads in the 70's and 80's when they used AD trucks as hop trucks in the hop fields around here. One hop yard had a fleet of about 50 AD trucks to haul hops from the fields to the kiln where the The boles/pods were separated from the vines and leaves. Now some hop companies have picking machines that separate the boles in the fields as they hops are picked and other yards use fleets of newer trucks.

[bootman49]

Thanks MR48, I have a lead on a 1963 6 cyl and I am waiting to hear what the block cast # is. Don't think it is a 235 and don't think it will swap but will try to do research to confirm.

[dsraven]

if it is a 63 it may be the later style block. you can tell because the bellhousing flange is part of the engine block and not a bolt on part. check the link to wiki for a description of the lineage.
for me, a newer style engine would be the no brainer. more stuff to choose from at the parts store.

[bootman49]

Originally Posted by dsraven

if it is a 63 it may be the later style block. you can tell because the bellhousing flange is part of the engine block and not a bolt on part. check the link to wiki for a description of the lineage.
for me, a newer style engine would be the no brainer. more stuff to choose from at the parts store.

I got a picture of it sent to me, it has a screw on oil filter. 194 or 230? I am going to pass on it and find a 235 but would be happy to pass it on to another member. It is in a 63 Biscayne.

[whitedog76]

I don't k know if you're a member at Stovebolt.com, but here's a for sale ad that's not too far from Chicagoland.

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads...ml#Post1289805

[mick53]

I have one in Indiana about 150 miles from you. I'm stuck in Iowa until mid January. It's in my 54 3/4 ton. I don't know what year it is but probably not original. It was the PO work truck when I bought it a few years ago. I can't get home to get casting number. Was told it used to run. It's still in the truck. It's in the back yard. It's a complete engine. I don't need it and if you can wait and are willing to take it out you can have it no charge. I have a bobcat there. I might get home at Christmas and could get numbers. I also have a 4 bbl Clifford intake and Holley carb for a few bucks that came off my 53 that FROZE.