notch welding questions

[shifty]

i have had my notch bolted in and tack-welded for a couple of weeks now and will probably get time to finish out all of my welds today. i had a couple of questions for you guys, though - actually, several questions -

i have a Lincoln 175HD that i'm using with 75/25 gas and .025 L-56 wire. i got a lot of my practice in by welding up trellises using 3/4" steel tube and 3/8" square rod. i've noticed that when i'm welding, for the first 1-3 seconds, i usually don't get a good 'crackle', but pops and sputters. after that 1-3 seconds, i get my good crackle and can run a decent bead, but by then, i've piled up so much of a puddle it's silly.

so, here are some questions i have:

-> is .025 wire w/gas suited for welding in my frame notch?

-> should i use a pattern when welding this up, like weld an inch, skip and inch, weld an inch, skip, then fill in the empty spaces after?

-> how will i know if my wire feed speed is sufficient? like, how do i know if my wire speed is too fast or too slow?

-> i assume i should run at power level "E" (A-E are options) for this thick of metal, right?

-> how do you really know whether to use A, B, C, D and E without looking at the cheat sheet on your welder?

finally - why is it that i can't seem to just strike off with a good crackle from the get-go?

i gotta make a run to the nursery to get some trees, was hoping to be all welded up by end of day today. any answers are appreciated, and any other advice you think might be helpful for my noobishness at welding is appreciated. i guess we all learn somehow

[danielwetpaint]

.025 is too small. I would always weld an inch skip to where there is no heat and weld another inch,then go back after it cools some. The largest wire that your unit is rated to use is .030 dia with gas 75%25%. Actually the Lincoln 175HD is only rated to weld frame thickness metal if you use the .045 with gasless or FluxCore wire.If you do use the .045 then set the welder on D-2 to E-2.5. If all else fails Shifty lift the access side door and there is a factory decal chart that shows wire diameter and power settings along with wire speed recomendations for various thickness metal. I have the exact same welder and noticed that the wire is too small because the wire vaporizes as it comes out of the tip and is impossible to "read" the puddle and color,(you asked how do I know right thickness?).It's OK to tack with but not to final weld. I wouldn't trust it. I have no choice but to get a spool of the .045 because I'm building C notches and bag plates too.Together we learn and grow.Oh,,you have cool house pictures,,I am finishing a 2 story as we type.Did you build it? Mine has taken 2.5 years and I've done 75 percent of it by myself.

[Slmd92DIME]

Just make sure your gaps are decent and you V the joining pieces a little bit and it will be fine. I welded up a few frames with a Lincoln 145 with 75 25 gas... you wont have a problem. Good luck and post up some pictures when your done with it.

[Frizzle Fry]

I use .035 on frames/suspension. It carries more current and is therefore hotter/better penetration.

As far as a pattern is concerned, just be sure everything is secured with strong tacks. 3/16 is not gonna warp with what you're using/doing. I'd wouldn't hesitate make full length beads.

Too fast wire speed and you're gonna be piling up and you may even feel the gun being pushed back from the piece. Too slow and you'll see the wire burn away, loose contact, then touch again -> zap-pause-zap-pause... Those are the extreme ends of the spectrum. Fine tuning should be done based on what the welds look like. If it looks like a bird-turd it's too fast wire/cold. If you burn through (probably not gonna happen with that welder) you could be moving the gun too slow or too hot.

I'd run it as hot as possible without making holes. That's my rule of thumb. Same is true on sheet metal, but you have to use a pattern.

The strike quality has a lot to do with how clean your pieces AND wire are. Get your metal as clean as possible right before you start. I use a wire wheel wherever I can. Start with a clean clipped wire every time you strike. The hotter the better. It takes a couple seconds for the pieces to heat up. Gun angle makes a big difference here too. I like to drag (angle the gun forward from the puddle). But you'll have to experiment to see what works well for you.

Good luck and post pics!

[68 short step]

the king has spoken.(frizzle fry)...
but here is my thoughs...
shifty, it sounds like the peice your welding isnt clean enough or temp too low..thats the popping noise your hearing the first 1-3 sec..

Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry

I use .035 on frames/suspension. It carries more current and is therefore hotter/better penetration.

As far as a pattern is concerned, just be sure everything is secured with strong tacks. 3/16 is not gonna warp with what you're using/doing. I'd wouldn't hesitate make full length beads.

Too fast wire speed and you're gonna be piling up and you may even feel the gun being pushed back from the piece. Too slow and you'll see the wire burn away, loose contact, then touch again -> zap-pause-zap-pause... Those are the extreme ends of the spectrum. Fine tuning should be done based on what the welds look like. If it looks like a bird-turd it's too fast wire/cold. If you burn through (probably not gonna happen with that welder) you could be moving the gun too slow or too hot.

I'd run it as hot as possible without making holes. That's my rule of thumb. Same is true on sheet metal, but you have to use a pattern.

The strike quality has a lot to do with how clean your pieces AND wire are. Get your metal as clean as possible right before you start. I use a wire wheel wherever I can. Start with a clean clipped wire every time you strike. The hotter the better. It takes a couple seconds for the pieces to heat up. Gun angle makes a big difference here too. I like to drag (angle the gun forward from the puddle). But you'll have to experiment to see what works well for you.

Good luck and post pics!

[Frizzle Fry]

Originally Posted by 68 short step

the king has spoken.(frizzle fry)...

No way am I even close. I'm fully shade-tree. Nate is the artist of a welder.

[shifty]

Ok, so my welder only handles .030 wire (MIG), do you guys normally weld frame stuff with flux core? The main reason I didn't want to work with flux core is because I got the impression flux core was sloppy to work with, left a lot of slag everywhere, kinda like welding with rods.

So, all of you guys doing frame welding are using .045 flux core wire? Local chain stores don't carry it, will hafta order it online if I'm going to use it. 3-4 days setback for me, another day wasted...

[Slmd92DIME]

DO not use flux core unless you dont have a tank and stuff.

[jlaird]

Don't use the flux core. You are correct in saying it is not as pleasing to the eye as the gas mix you have. You will be ok with the .030. I did my whole backhalf with it. But are you positive it won't handle .035? I have a similar 220v unit (miller/hobart) and it does .035. Anyway you dont need to do just an inch at a time. The steel your working with is thick enough that it wont warp, escpecially since you are just welding in a bolt-in c notch. Use a "c" back and forth pattern and you should be good to go. On verticle surfaces, start on the top and work your way down. On flat surfaces, try dragging as frizzle suggested. Good luck and post some pics when you are done!

[Frizzle Fry]

A lot of guys that have not done a lot of flux core welding get kinda snooty about it, but the truth is the welds are just as strong and the slag (little balls of metal) and "dusting" from the gas created by burning flux all clean up (98%) with a wire-wheel. I used it for a long time and made some nice looking welds. It's one of those things people find it easy to put down and not many people will stand up to defend it because MIG is preferable in an ideal world. But, there's nothing "wrong" with using flux-core as long as you clean up after it.

For show quality welds MIG is better but TIG is best!

[Shane]

What's the main reason for welding the C notch anyway? Just curious.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Shane

What's the main reason for welding the C notch anyway? Just curious.

Added insurance. I bolted mine in the then run a bead on the edges. If it needs to ever come back out for whatever reason, a quick slice & dice of the edges & it can be unbolted.

[gringoloco]

Frizzle knows what he's talkin' 'bout sometimes... I think you've got it nailed: More heat, bigger wire and CLEAN metal. You can use the push method to concentrate more heat on the thick metal frame with a less than optimal wire diameter- the drag method will run a little cooler...

[Shane]

Added insurance of what? It falling out?

I ask cause I don't see it really adding any strength by welding ...

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Shane

Added insurance of what? It falling out?

I ask cause I don't see it really adding any strength by welding ...

No worries of it falling out. Just for strength (not that it's needed).

[danielwetpaint]

I don't see why .035 wouldn't work,it's only use is listed as gasless. It also says on the unit that the liner will handle .045,, then surely it'll take .035(duh). It also says that when using Innershield or Fluxcore that you must reverse the polarity. I have a seperate Century mig for that. But the timeless welding rule is "the thicker the metal the more energy and larger diameter wire or rod used". You can make repeated passes but why? I've been building repairing painting since 1978. I've welded roll cages and alot of other things through the years. I've had some of them distort by welding on one side working to the other. Thats why I said that I work here then there to avoid distortion. I've built my two shops with oil well stem, so I've done some welding. Only lately have I creatively played with car/truck frames. The reason I chimed in is because I have the same welder and some experience.

[shifty]

cool, thanks for the feedback.

i was assuming (you know what happens then you assume) that .035 was not possible based on what daniel said above - i didn't look inside the cover to see if it even listed .035 wire. i'll check it out as i'm on my way out to work tomorrow.

i've only got it bolted in with a couple of bolts right now. i put in those bolts and tacked it on the corners with .025 wire +gas. it was literally just a tack. i planned on welding all of the butts tight and sealing it up. i have no plans to remove the notch later, i'd rather weld it than have all the bolts everywhere.

i'm only welding to cut down on bolts and improve looks - and when i get the frame powdercoated, i don't want to powdercoat the bolts, etc. but i also don't trust the place *not* to bend my frame with no notch in it.

anyone got some good clean pics of your bolt-in notches welded in?

[shifty]

Thanks for the info, Daniel, that makes much more sense. You originally said:

Originally Posted by danielwetpaint

The largest wire that your unit is rated to use is .030 dia with gas 75%25%.

And while it makes sense it would spool .035, I didn't know if the unit would handle welding with .035 +gas (I'm not sure what using wire the unit isn't "rated for" would result in). I just wanted to make sure I wasn't going to run into a problem if I was using .035 non-flux +gas.



So, I take it you guys are using .025 +gas for body panel repair?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by shifty

.....So, I take it you guys are using .025 +gas for body panel repair?

I did my mini-tubs using .030 w/the heat & wire speed turned down.

[Shane]

.022 + 75/25 mix on sheetmetal

[danielwetpaint]

I went ahead and bought the .045 FluxCore and then the regular mig wire .035 dia. to test it out for myself and see why they didn't recomend it with gas.

[shifty]

Let me know what you figure out - my in-laws are in town this weekend, so I can't really work on the truck.

[danielwetpaint]

Oh,,one more thing,,when is my name going to stop being pink?

[Shane]

when you pay your $25

[danielwetpaint]

I guess we PayPal then,,,I hate pink.