clip question

[JELLY]

I bought my truck with a ifs front clip already installed which saves me work. The problem is i was told it was a '77 or '78 monte carlo and those two years are supposed to be different and i wanted to buy drop spindles and a bag kit if made for it. Does anyone know how to tell the difference?

Also, the rearend is from a monte carlo and i think i am going to use the factory triangulated 4-link mounts on the top of the pumpkin. i would like to know the length of the links eye to eye so i have a starting point. i will make the top links as long as possible then add the same length to the bottom.

Sorry for rambling! Just had elbow surgery and i'm getting stir crazy sitting here. Build thread coming soon! Thanks!

[pgf545]

I don't know if the spindles and a-arms are different but the body's are differently different. 78 was the first year for the smaller car and 77 was still a pretty big car. I would check with who you are going to buy your stuff from and maybe they can tell you.

Bernie

[JELLY]

Thanks for the reply Bernie. Looks like that is what i'll do.

Nice build by the way. Wish i had a shop like yours. My build is happening in a single car garage! I put french doors from the garage into the second bedroom for more room!

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Thanks for the reply Bernie. Looks like that is what i'll do.

Nice build by the way. Wish i had a shop like yours. My build is happening in a single car garage! I put french doors from the garage into the second bedroom for more room!

FWIW worth plan on enclosing the doors if you sell the house, there is a reason the Fire Code requires a 1 hour wall with rated door between the garage and living space. Also, if you have a problem, might invalidate you home insurance.

[JELLY]

The wall will be put back when i sell that was the plan. Do the exterior french doors not have a fire rating at all? Gotta work with what i have

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by JELLY

The wall will be put back when i sell that was the plan. Do the exterior french doors not have a fire rating at all? Gotta work with what i have

No, solid core wood or hollow metal, both in listed frames with listed hardware and smoke seals.

[1-ton of fun]

For the rear end, the length of the original links is irrelevent. What you need to do is set up the frame mounts for those links for proper geometry for the truck.

[JELLY]

Thanks 1-ton. This is my first build of a vehicle. Done bikes before. I was just going to use the link measurements as a starting point. How do you figure the geometry for the rear? I read somewhere that the upper links should be 30% of the length of the lowers. Is that correct?

Thanks for the help, this site has a wealth of knowledge!

[youngrodder]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Thanks 1-ton. This is my first build of a vehicle. Done bikes before. I was just going to use the link measurements as a starting point. How do you figure the geometry for the rear? I read somewhere that the upper links should be 30% of the length of the lowers. Is that correct?

Thanks for the help, this site has a wealth of knowledge!

Jelly-

My truck uses the front and rear suspension from a g-body (78-88 I believe). The PO used the stock set up with coil sping suspension and it road great. I did upgrade to air ride (keeping the stock spindles) and went with boxed aftermarket trailing arms. I can measure from eye to eye on my original uppers and lowers if that would help.

Let me know
Marc

[JELLY]

Mark,

Those measurements would be great to have! Also i read the spindles on the '77 have the caliper mount fordged as one and '78 is a bolt on mount for the caliper. Mine are one piece. What do your look like?

Sweet truck! Do you have more pics?

Thanks,
Jeremy

[JELLY]

Marc,

What size tires/wheels are you running?

[youngrodder]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Mark,

Those measurements would be great to have! Also i read the spindles on the '77 have the caliper mount fordged as one and '78 is a bolt on mount for the caliper. Mine are one piece. What do your look like?

Sweet truck! Do you have more pics?

Thanks,
Jeremy

Jeremy--

My spindles are one piece.

For more pics go to
http://s79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/Youngrodder/

If it asks for a password use 1948truck. This project is going on 7+ yrs so some of these photos are old. I have a lot more pics that I need to add to my album.

I found my OE upper control arm and from center to center of the holes it measures 11-1/4. I could not locate the lowers, so next time I am at the body shop I can measure my aftermarket lowers which are the same length as OE.

Originally Posted by JELLY

Marc,

What size tires/wheels are you running?

I will be going with 20's. The current rims are a 15". Fronts are 6.5" wide with a 215x70 tire and the rear are 10" wide with a 275x60. I have mini tubs in the bed to be able to run the 10" wide rim.

I like the chop. It will look even better if you get the truck really low. In my opinion most people with a chop fail to get the truck low enough and the proportions look wack....

Thanks
Marc

[1-ton of fun]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Thanks 1-ton. This is my first build of a vehicle. Done bikes before. I was just going to use the link measurements as a starting point. How do you figure the geometry for the rear? I read somewhere that the upper links should be 30% of the length of the lowers. Is that correct?

Thanks for the help, this site has a wealth of knowledge!

the longer the better. in my 3link design i did for my truck the upper and lower links are the same, 24". the longer the links, the less pinion angle change there is with suspension movement.

as for the geometry, from a side view, the links will intersect at an imaginary point called the instant center. this can be adjusted by changing the height from the ground that either end of the upper or lower links attach to the body or axle. for best launch characteristics, you want this point to fall on a line drawn from the contact patch of the rear tire with the ground to a line perpendicular to the ground, intersecting that lie at the height of the center of gravity of the truck. below this line will cause the rear of the truck to squat on launch, above will cause the rear to rise on launch. right on the line and you will have 100% anti-sqaut (a good thing) and the rear will not raise or lower on launch. there are other factors to consider such as the side view swing arm length (SVSA) and roll centers.

it is best if you are fabbing the brackets to design some adjustability into them so the suspension can be tuned once it is together and on the road.

[JELLY]

Originally Posted by 1-ton of fun

the longer the better. in my 3link design i did for my truck the upper and lower links are the same, 24". the longer the links, the less pinion angle change there is with suspension movement.

as for the geometry, from a side view, the links will intersect at an imaginary point called the instant center. this can be adjusted by changing the height from the ground that either end of the upper or lower links attach to the body or axle. for best launch characteristics, you want this point to fall on a line drawn from the contact patch of the rear tire with the ground to a line perpendicular to the ground, intersecting that lie at the height of the center of gravity of the truck. below this line will cause the rear of the truck to squat on launch, above will cause the rear to rise on launch. right on the line and you will have 100% anti-sqaut (a good thing) and the rear will not raise or lower on launch. there are other factors to consider such as the side view swing arm length (SVSA) and roll centers.

it is best if you are fabbing the brackets to design some adjustability into them so the suspension can be tuned once it is together and on the road.

1-Ton,

I watched my DVRed extreme4x4 show today and thats exactly what they said! I just need to find the center of gravity and roll center and i understand the rest.

As for brackets, i am fabbing everything. I bought threaded inserts and ends already for link length adjustment. I may make the axle and frame brackets with a few different mounting holes also.

[Houston54]

If your suspension is from a 78 G-body you can find drop spindles from most suppliers. If you retain your original spindles you will may have a harder time finding bearings as the 78 spindle design on the G-body cars is unique. The 79 and up spindles are different. The S-10 also uses the same spindles so if you want to simplify future maintenance you can always swap the 78 one out.

I found I did not need to use drop spindles as the way I installed the sub-frame got the truck to a good stance. Any lower and I would be scrapping going in and out of driveways/parking lots.

There are some pics of my install in the picturetrail link in my signature.

Have you fitted the core support to the frame yet? If not you will be in for a surprise.

[youngrodder]

Originally Posted by Houston54

If your suspension is from a 78 G-body you can find drop spindles from most suppliers. If you retain your original spindles you will may have a harder time finding bearings as the 78 spindle design on the G-body cars is unique. The 79 and up spindles are different. The S-10 also uses the same spindles so if you want to simplify future maintenance you can always swap the 78 one out.

I found I did not need to use drop spindles as the way I installed the sub-frame got the truck to a good stance. Any lower and I would be scrapping going in and out of driveways/parking lots.

There are some pics of my install in the picturetrail link in my signature.

Have you fitted the core support to the frame yet? If not you will be in for a surprise.

Huston--

I know what you mean about the core supprt (steering box). What radiator did you use? My frame set up looks different then yours. Did you Z the frame? My core support had to be shortened. When I bought it, it was a driver and had a 48 car radiator in in.

Nice truck

Marc

[JELLY]

Originally Posted by Houston54

If your suspension is from a 78 G-body you can find drop spindles from most suppliers. If you retain your original spindles you will may have a harder time finding bearings as the 78 spindle design on the G-body cars is unique. The 79 and up spindles are different. The S-10 also uses the same spindles so if you want to simplify future maintenance you can always swap the 78 one out.

I found I did not need to use drop spindles as the way I installed the sub-frame got the truck to a good stance. Any lower and I would be scrapping going in and out of driveways/parking lots.

There are some pics of my install in the picturetrail link in my signature.

Have you fitted the core support to the frame yet? If not you will be in for a surprise.

So i should swap the spindle to a '79 or newer? The spindle shaft and bearings are the only difference?

The core support is in and the splice work looks alot like what is shown in your pics.

Thanks
Jeremy

[1-ton of fun]

Originally Posted by JELLY

1-Ton,

I watched my DVRed extreme4x4 show today and thats exactly what they said! I just need to find the center of gravity and roll center and i understand the rest.

As for brackets, i am fabbing everything. I bought threaded inserts and ends already for link length adjustment. I may make the axle and frame brackets with a few different mounting holes also.

one thing that will help since measuring the height of the center of gravity is difficult, especially on a project car that is in pieces, it to estimate a highest and lowest possible CG height, and then design your frame brackets to adjust to cover the whole range needed for those two different scenarios. as for the link lengths, see what will make fabrication and installation easiest of the frame brackets, then figure out what length works for that plan.

if you can give me the wheelbase, tire height, and the height from the ground (using the tire height that you will be using on the truck) of the upper and lower mounting points on the axle, i can help you with the calculations.

[55belairtim]

hi
like houston said the 78 spindle is all to itself, i would change up the the 79-88 spindle, you can get drop spindles for those years.

[JELLY]

From the way Marcs truck is sitting without lowered spindles, i dont think i'll need them. I probaly will get newer spindles and bearings though. My neighbor said i probaly can buy a knuckle assembly-spindle,bearings,and rotor pakage.


Houston-My steering box looks different than your and is smaller. Wonder why that is? The truck came with a stock core bracket and one cut to fit similar to yours.

Jeremy

[Houston54]

The manual steering boxes are smaller or you could be running a 605 steering box. The box I am using has the quick ratio steering and is power.

If your box has a round center section it is a 605 which will work fine. I do not know if the pitman arm would need to change if you wanted to upgrade it.

You can get the spindles from most any salvage yard. Again the S-10 is the same spindle. The 1978 control arms do not have to be changed to accept the newer spindle.

Let us know if you can find a radiator that will fit without having to do the mods I had to. Make sure it can handle a V8. If you are running AC that will impact the cooling requirements also.

[JELLY]

Originally Posted by Houston54

The manual steering boxes are smaller or you could be running a 605 steering box. The box I am using has the quick ratio steering and is power.

If your box has a round center section it is a 605 which will work fine. I do not know if the pitman arm would need to change if you wanted to upgrade it.

You can get the spindles from most any salvage yard. Again the S-10 is the same spindle. The 1978 control arms do not have to be changed to accept the newer spindle.

Let us know if you can find a radiator that will fit without having to do the mods I had to. Make sure it can handle a V8. If you are running AC that will impact the cooling requirements also.

Must be a 605 box cause it is rounf in the center like you said and it's not manual.

Looks like i'll head to the salavage yard when i get to that point to get spindles. I still need to make sure the spindles are '78 and not '77. I read in another thread that they in fact do look the same but the '77 is smaller in height. I need to measure mine then get measurements off of a known year model to compare.

As for the radiator, it came with one that was laying in the custom bracket they made but it was not fastened in or hooked up to the motor. It looks like it came from another vehicle and doesn't look big enough, very thin. I do want to run A/C and it stays very hot here in the summertime.

I'm trying to work on one thing at a time to keep the clutter down so right now its the rolling chassis.

Thanks for the help!

[PDW HOTRODS]

I am using the same front end and I made a wider core support, and modified the inner fender wells. I am using a crossflow radiator for a 1969 Camaro. It is short and wide so it clears the steering box fine, but it's not as wide as a full size car or truck radiator.