using bell housing to line up new engine?

[Denee007]

Hi(again!); )
My friend that rebuilt my 350 engine said I suggested to use the bell housing that's in the truck to line up the new engine. Bolt my new engine up to it and block the front up. I was going to take out the bell housing thinking it was going to sell along with the other stuff, then take out the crossmember that it's sitting on, and to be honest, I don't know how I was going to line up the new engine! The tranny guy said also that the engine needs a little angle back, like so many degrees? So ,when the day comes to weld in my engine mounts, what would you all suggest?
Against my husbands wish, I was going to buy one of the mock up engines, the long block, they only weigh 30lbs and would be easier to mock up where the engine is supposed to go.
advice?

[solidaxel]

Are you keeping the manual trans?

[Denee007]

No, I have a turbo 350 automatic tranny.

Originally Posted by solidaxel

Are you keeping the manual trans?

[mr48chev]

I follow what your engine guy is saying. By bolting the engine to the bellhousing and leveling the carb mounting surface on the manifold you can get the front (side) motor mounts in the right position to have the engine set in the same spot that the original one did. That will solve a lot of other problems down the road when you go to hook up exhaust and things like radiator hoses.

Then, after it is all set up you pull it back out, remove the bellhousing and remove or modify the crossmember. Personally I'd modify it to clear the turbo 350 and not cut it all the way out. You loose a lot of strength in the frame when you cut it out entirely.

After you have the turbo 350 bolted to the engine set the whole unit back in and level the engine again and hook up the rear crossmember/trans support. You might have to shim the trans mount to get things level but that part shouldn't be too difficult.

[Denee007]

So that is a pretty good idea then Mr48chevy? In my handbook for chevy trucks, the man said to remove the crossmember~ I had my concernes about removing it. However, I will be installing my transmision in after the engine is in. I can't remove the front grill off of my 59, it's kind of put in solid, joints of body work are partially filled and they would crack in trying to remove them all. I bought the truck painted already. I'll say that crossmember looks like a bear to remove~ Perhaps the new crossmember holding the tranny would help support the frame?
I guess in this case, maybe I can forget about the replica engine~ save a little money. oh, my tranny guy said he may have a gutted 350 turbo he could let me use for mocking up the tranny support` that'd be neat!
; )

[tmoble]

IMO, what you want is these two:

http://www.ecklerstrucks.com/index.p...s-_-118001-_-X

http://www.ecklerstrucks.com/chevy-t...roduct_Related

I cut that old style bellhousing mount crossmember out of my truck in 1985, seems to working fine without it. And yes, it's a PITA to get out, it's riveted.

I'd avoid any of those "ear" style mounts that cantilever the weight of your engine off the frame rails. My frame cracked with those. That's what prompted me to go to the Camaro subframe back in 94.

It's deja vu all over again.

[Denee007]

I really like the looks of these supports and they're priced reasonably! I really didn't want the engine supports with the ear style like you were talking about. And I do have the HEI distributor~ I was really concerned about the clearance, and the clearance in the front of the engine as well!

Gee, I may just go ahead and get that replica engine and borrow that tranny guys Turbo 350 gutted out tranny for mocking up alignment and such. He did say he'd come over had help me line up the engine and trany so I wouldn't get the vibration I keep hearing about~ that would be aweful after all that work and get the vibration!
gee, I'll get through this!!(with ya'lls help!) Thanks!

Originally Posted by tmoble

IMO, what you want is these two:

http://www.ecklerstrucks.com/index.p...s-_-118001-_-X

http://www.ecklerstrucks.com/chevy-t...roduct_Related

I cut that old style bellhousing mount crossmember out of my truck in 1985, seems to working fine without it. And yes, it's a PITA to get out, it's riveted.

I'd avoid any of those "ear" style mounts that cantilever the weight of your engine off the frame rails. My frame cracked with those. That's what prompted me to go to the Camaro subframe back in 94.

It's deja vu all over again.

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by Denee007

I really like the looks of these supports and they're priced reasonably! I really didn't want the engine supports with the ear style like you were talking about. And I do have the HEI distributor~ I was really concerned about the clearance, and the clearance in the front of the engine as well!

Gee, I may just go ahead and get that replica engine and borrow that tranny guys Turbo 350 gutted out tranny for mocking up alignment and such. He did say he'd come over had help me line up the engine and trany so I wouldn't get the vibration I keep hearing about~ that would be aweful after all that work and get the vibration!
gee, I'll get through this!!(with ya'lls help!) Thanks!

just take your time and make sure there is enough room for everything plus some room for normal movement.rubber mounts move around some during normal operation. sort of like backing through a parking lot go slow and watch everything. make sure there is room foe linkages too.

[mknittle]

I would use the transmission that you are going to use to line things up. because of the vertical inclination of the u joints on the rear end and trans have to be close to parallel. The Spicer book says 4 degrees} but closer is better or you will get vibration.and not good ones.

[mknittle]

There are a lot of things to watch for when engine swapping sometimes the engine must be offset for steering box or oil pan tie rod clearance. So DON'T mount the engine without the steering done.Or you may end up re doing it. also auto transmissions some times have a bigger longer bell housing to clear the torque converter.So it may need to be mounted a bit farther forward.Just guessing is like gambling.I never have any luck gambling so I take every precaution when fabricating anything. measure twice {at least} cut once

[oletrux]

The reason for the 4* that Spicer recommends is to insure that the u-joints get proper lubrication. If the joints are straight and not wobbling a little, grease won't get slung out to the bearings as well. Of course too much angle can result in a vibration, but you need some......
A good point was made about mocking it up with the carb mounting surface as level as possible. You can then get the angle you want between the tranny and rear-end by moving the spring perches.

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by oletrux

The reason for the 4* that Spicer recommends is to insure that the u-joints get proper lubrication. If the joints are straight and not wobbling a little, grease won't get slung out to the bearings as well. Of course too much angle can result in a vibration, but you need some......
A good point was made about mocking it up with the carb mounting surface as level as possible. You can then get the angle you want between the tranny and rear-end by moving the spring perches.

sorry but it is because of vibration I said vertical. what you are talking about is horizontal.as in flat. so we are both correct. I know this well as I spent several years as a heavy truck mechanic.and have been building jeeps and cars for over 30 years now.WOW where did the time go.

[mknittle]

sorry about the brake had to take the dogs out,
There is a lot more about drive line/ yoke angles such as offset formulas, yokes can run out of plane if by even amounts, angle changes due to suspension travel
I run a 15" rear drive line at 25 Degrees on my 1942 jeep with no vibration at 50 mph but looking at it parked the angles look awful.

But as Denee sad earlier she isn't lowering her truck much or making any radical changes so I did not want to overwhelm her with information that does not apply to her project.

Mark

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by mknittle

But as Denee sad earlier she isn't lowering her truck much or making any radical changes so I did not want to overwhelm her with information that does not apply to her project.

Mark

Bingo you nailed it. Lets keep it simple and not try to over complicate things by attempting to show off our mechanical knowledge.

The turbo 350 is pretty close to the same length as a stock stick bellhousing and three speed trans and that is one reason why I suggested using the stock bellhousing set the engine in with for alignment and location purposes. Unless there is a specific reason for moving the engine forward a couple of inches I still stick with that. I've used those "universal" engine swap crossmembers several times with good success when putting V8 engines in early trucks. They also add some support to the frame when you cut the bellhousing crossmember out.

The big issue would be having the hei clear the firewall. Why not set the engine in, bolt two bolts between the engine block and bellhousing and see where you are at? If everything looks like it will work put your front mount in and get the engine set up and then pull the engine back out and take the bellhousing and crossmember out.

Something like this on the front http://www.speedwaymotors.com/S-B-B-...ount,3273.html

And something like this one of the tubular transmission crossmembers shown here http://www.speedwaymotors.com/V6-Bui...ount,3272.html on the back under the trans mount.

Denee I was thinking more about the problems I have seen on GM AD trucks when you remove that crossmember and the frame flexes due to the weight of the cab pushing down but if you add the crossmember under the engine for the engine mounts and the one for the trans that should put the strength back in it and it will be fine.

[Denee007]

yes, no overwhelming = good! I like the KISS principle very much! ; In my case, KIVSS (keep it very simple stupid) ; )

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by Denee007

yes, no overwhelming = good! I like the KISS principle very much! ; In my case, KIVSS (keep it very simple stupid) ; )

Yeah,I like engineering not over engineering.We could go on about drive lines all day,buy why waste time we could use doing something else. speaking of witch I am off to do some welding on my pedal mount/dash brace.

[oletrux]

Re-read it...I'm with you now.

[dwcsr]

I think I'd go at it a little differently.

You had a V8 Bell housing that fit so I would use the original bell to get the engine lined up front to back for the front mount and put a level on the intake manifold to set at 0*front to back and side to side. With the manifold level you will have the correct angle for the crankshaft, GM motors and manifolds are design this way so you get a 3* rearward slope and the carb is level..

Once you have the front mounts in place then worry about the rear. You will have enough clearance for the Dist because you have a V8 bell and they are place just about right for a HEI to fit in. You may have to modify the floor slightly due to the longer slope of a TH350 bell.

I would not at this point worry about the vibration. You can fix this problem when the rear end is setup and adjusted. Vibration generally occurs when you change angles on a used u joint or a new u joint that was damaged during install, or your joints are out of phase or you have huge angles like on some jacked up 4x4's.

This may help with alignment of the drive train. I did it with the cab off but the idea is still the same.
http://www.thehollisterroadcompany.com/framesquare.html

[mknittle]

Originally Posted by oletrux

Re-read it...I'm with you now.

I know what you mean about "flat" drive lines beating the bearings and crosses.
I worked for a company that had a lot of Trucks with PTO driven hydraulic pumps whoever bilt the things didnt know about that.

[Denee007]

Hello Dave Chapman in Houston!! gee, I read most of the Hollister thing~ a little over my head. BUT since you're here in Houston~ you can come over and help me! ; )
I have a ways to go so don't get alarmed! My tranny guy that built my tranny said he'd help when it's time. I like the supports below that Tmobile so nicely brought to my attetion! However, using the kiss principle;I re-install the bell housing that I just removed, then I install and level my 350 engine with a level on the intake, level in all horizontal planes, Then, I install my 350 automatic tranny(hoping that it will clear the floor)~ so what do I do here when I go to bolt up the new tranny support? Do I temporarily install my tranny support but don't bolt it in?

http://www.ecklerstrucks.com/index.p...s-_-118001-_-X

http://www.ecklerstrucks.com/chevy-t...roduct_Related

[Russell Ashley]

On my 57, 350 with stock mounts, three speed tranny, and factory large cap HEI, the firewall had to be modified to make room. This was done by the PO with a large hammer apparently. I have since smoothed it out and also went to a small aftermarket distributor with external coil. My advice would be to plan on using a smaller distributor if you don't move the engine forward slightly. My valve covers are very near the firewall also so I would recommend moving the engine forward slightly since you are basicly starting fresh.

[Denee007]

Hi Russell! well, I have the large HEI distributor. Here's what I'd like to do; I want to purchase a replica engine(the long block type), and get a 350 tranny housing (gutted) from my tranny guy. He says he has one with a broken ear and it's gutted, and he said it weighs next to nothing. Then I can mock up everything effortlessly. I do plan to bring the engine far forward as possible, but I guess I need the water pump on the replica engine, and whatever fan I'm going to use and radiator! omg! How's that all sound?

Originally Posted by Russell Ashley

On my 57, 350 with stock mounts, three speed tranny, and factory large cap HEI, the firewall had to be modified to make room. This was done by the PO with a large hammer apparently. I have since smoothed it out and also went to a small aftermarket distributor with external coil. My advice would be to plan on using a smaller distributor if you don't move the engine forward slightly. My valve covers are very near the firewall also so I would recommend moving the engine forward slightly since you are basicly starting fresh.

[dwcsr]

Originally Posted by Russell Ashley

On my 57, 350 with stock mounts, three speed tranny, and factory large cap HEI, the firewall had to be modified to make room. This was done by the PO with a large hammer apparently. I have since smoothed it out and also went to a small aftermarket distributor with external coil. My advice would be to plan on using a smaller distributor if you don't move the engine forward slightly. My valve covers are very near the firewall also so I would recommend moving the engine forward slightly since you are basicly starting fresh.

Re thinking it your right, If it had an original 6 cylinder in it the the firewall needs to be modified or the engine moved forward. The V8 cab does not need this modification. The firewall on an original V8 Cab is shaped differently.

[OrrieG]

I kept the cross member with my TH350. Bellhousing and pan just clear it but the inspection pan needed modified into a two piece unit. Many remove the crossmember which adds lateral support for the rear spring perches. I take mine off road and put a lot of stress on the frame. For a street truck you could get by without it but I would still add back in a square tube member across the frame at the spring perches. The engine/trans angle is set by leveling the intake manifold carb surface. I believe it puts the engine 4 degrees down at the back.

[Denee007]

Dave Chapman convince me in keeping the crossmember after explaining it a little more in person. I may make it to where it "bolts" into place; haven't figured that out yet. Just thought maybe takinga sawzall, cutting it symetrically on both sided, the weld on some overlapping tabs to put long bolts in. Again, haven't figured it out yet. When I get my replica engine and the Th350 gutted tranny housing and the mounts, I'll be able to understand what I need to accomplish.

Originally Posted by OrrieG

I kept the cross member with my TH350. Bellhousing and pan just clear it but the inspection pan needed modified into a two piece unit. Many remove the crossmember which adds lateral support for the rear spring perches. I take mine off road and put a lot of stress on the frame. For a street truck you could get by without it but I would still add back in a square tube member across the frame at the spring perches. The engine/trans angle is set by leveling the intake manifold carb surface. I believe it puts the engine 4 degrees down at the back.