Dana 44 closed knuckle disc brakes

[danw210]

Has anyone done a drum to disc brake swap on a closed knuckle Dana 44? If so, what did you use? I have a 69 K20 and I figured that the disc brackets from a 72 K20 would work. Everything bolts up but when I mount the calipers there is not enough clearance for the brake pads (see pictures).

[Mike C]

My own thought on this is why? The open knuckle front is so much better for turning radius, just swap it in complete.

Converting a Dana 25/27 to discs using the GM parts and Jeep rotors is a common swap, but only because you can't get a drop in that uses same gears like you can with the GM.

So, not answering your questions, but if you are going to swap something, I'd swap the whole front axle with the caveat that gear has to match or you have to swap the gears in the housing.

[danw210]

I hear you Mike, but I'm already in this deep so I just want to make this work with what I have. I already have so much invested in it already, I just assumed that the swap was as simple as using the brackets and hubs from the 72.
Posted via Mobile Device

[danw210]

OK - I am making this work (I think). I was using the 69 spindles, because the axle shafts fit into them, but it did not line-up the rotor where I needed it. The 72 spindles bolt up of course but the axle shafts do not fit into them, the rotor lines up perfect with the 72 spindle. If you look at the picture of the two spindles you can see that the 69 has a bushing and the 72 has a needle bearing.




I had the outer axle shafts turned down to fit the 72 spindles and they fit really nice. I'll be putting the axle shafts back together with new u-joints.

[LONGHAIR]

Isn't this the second, or maybe third, separate thread on this?

[danw210]

Originally Posted by LONGHAIR

Isn't this the second, or maybe third, separate thread on this?

I did have another thread where I was asking some of the same questions. that one has since been deleted. I have made mention of this on my build page as well. I figured this may be useful info for someone in the same predicament.

[jbclassix]

I believe you may run into issues with caliper clearance between the knuckle and the back of the caliper. I haven't ever done a swap on a chevy, but I did one on a Ford using Chevy parts and a Scout using FSJ parts. both had issues got worked out with grinder therapy.

[mike16]

Originally Posted by danw210

I hear you Mike, but I'm already in this deep so I just want to make this work with what I have. I already have so much invested in it already, I just assumed that the swap was as simple as using the brackets and hubs from the 72.
Posted via Mobile Device

frankly, my hearing must be bad,

I dony get why people got to ask you why you did what you already have done. and then qualify thier answer based on the foundation that it really does not matter because you got it wrong simply because you chose a closed knuckle axle from the beginning,

I had a friend who worked with me at a gas stattion, every time somebody would pull in and ask directions, he would say, you cant get there from here, you gotta go somewhere else first and go from there.

I have a dana 44 closed knuckle front end on my truck. lots of advantages ....to me.

[maxwoof]

Regarding what lubricant to use in the closed knuckle - I have has success with simply packing the wheel and knuckle bearings with grease, the way you would with an open knuckle unit. No oil leaks that way. Been running my 62 that way for a few years now.

[fp1967]

Neat project. I put disc brakes on a closed knuckle frontend back in 1991. This was a low budget off road only buggy. I am not recomending that anybody do this, I am just letting you know how I did it for an off road only machine. I used a half worn out brake pad on the inside and put a some shims between the inner wheel bearing and shoulder on the spindle to move the hub/rotor out a little bit. My reasoning for using the closed knuckle frontend was that I figured it would keep mud and dirt out of the axle joints and axle tubes. Somebody mentioned that these frontends don't turn as sharp, but I didn't figure that it would matter a whole lot on this machine because the frame was shortened up quite a bit. The other disadvantage of these frontends is that they have small axle joints. Here is a scan of an old picture of it.

[530FF]

Well I,m finding myself in the same predicament in converting my closed knuckle Dana 44 to disk brakes on a k10 . This thread has been very helpful. My question is what modification was made to the caliper bracket to make it work without clearance interference .

[danw210]

Originally Posted by 530FF

Well I,m finding myself in the same predicament in converting my closed knuckle Dana 44 to disk brakes on a k10 . This thread has been very helpful. My question is what modification was made to the caliper bracket to make it work without clearance interference .

No mods needed to the caliper bracket. After the outer shafts are milled everything fits perfect. Good luck!

[Bruce A. Frank]

This info may be useful for the next person who wants to do a disc conversion on a closed knuckle 44.

http://www.circletracksupply.com/che...brake-kit.html



I am looking to do the same conversion on a '56 International S120 4X4 D44 closed knuckle axle. The Circle Track source has discs for 8 lug, but a phone conversation got the information that undrilled discs may be available, so I could set up the 6 lug I need it.

[suburbangeorge]

Originally Posted by Bruce A. Frank

This info may be useful for the next person who wants to do a disc conversion on a closed knuckle 44.

http://www.circletracksupply.com/che...brake-kit.html



I am looking to do the same conversion on a '56 International S120 4X4 D44 closed knuckle axle. The Circle Track source has discs for 8 lug, but a phone conversation got the information that undrilled discs may be available, so I could set up the 6 lug I need it.

Bruce, I don't know if you'll see this but you just about have to be the same guy whose question appeared in the Nov '17 FOURWHEELER due to the rarity of your truck. Don't know if it will make it into a future issue but here's what I wrote to them:

"Hello,

Read the question about converting the IH S120 front axle to disk brakes. Searched online and found that it has a Dana 44 ihc44fclosed - Torque King 4x4 .

I have a '66 K10 Suburban with a closed knuckle Dana 44. Early on in ownership I decided the stock drums were not going to cut it. Bought what was supposed to be a '73 Blazer disk brake 3.73 Dana 44 front axle. Even had a 3.73 rebuild tag. It was a 3.07. Started looking at the cut away in my '66 shop manual of the front brakes and a cut away from a '70s front disk Dana 44. Up to a point everything seemed the same. Contacted Dana and talked with an engineer who told me that you could not convert a closed knuckle drum brake axle to disks. The more I looked at it, It sure seemed that he was wrong. I had all of the donor parts so I set out to do it.

If I recall correctly, you strip the closed knuckle back to the steering knuckles and replace all of the outboard parts with parts from the disk donor. There's only two differences. The caliper carrier and the drum backing plate both have the same bolt pattern but one is drilled 6 and 12 and the other 3 and 9. Would mount the caliper in the wrong place to use the stock Blazer rubber brake lines. Took the mounts to a machine shop and had them re-drilled to match the backing plates. The other difference is that the u-joints both have the same number but one has an "X" suffix. The open knuckle disk brake axle uses u-joints with dust seals to retain the grease.
The closed knuckle u-joints have no seals so that the gear oil in the closed knuckles can lubricate them.

Called the Dana guy back after I had it working and told him what I did. He didn't apologize but told me that he'd never done the conversion but that friends of his who had, had done the same. Companies were worried about liability back then also. Speaking of liability, I could not find a shop willing to power bleed my brakes once they found out that the system was modified. Crazy world we live in.

A Nov '88 article in 4WHEEL & OFF-ROAD has an article "Poor Man's Floater" (pg 124-129) which details converting a Ford 9" rear axle to full float using Chevy front axle disk brake parts. As a sort of after thought, the article talks about using Chevy parts to convert a Ford drum brake Dana 44 to disks so I'm hoping this will also work for your reader."

When I say Knuckles out I also mean u-joints out. Good luck.

[wadelitvany@shaw.ca]

I was hoping to have a few questions solved re:1962 GMC 3/4 Ton 4x4 front Disk brake conversion.I have learned a lot from the previous posts but still have some issues.
1.The original drum and backing plate is removed and replaced with newer GMC caliper mounting plate.(What year will fit and must it be off of a 4x4?)
2.The axle spindle must be replaced because of the caliper/rotor positioning?What year of spindle,rotor and disc would work best?
3.The original outer axle needs machining 1.312" to fit the newer spindle with needle bearing vs. bushing ?
4.What vacuum booster and master cylinder / proportioning valve would work best?
5.When this is put together,what is the best lubricant for the closed knuckle?
Thanks everybody in advance for the input

[60sIron]

Originally Posted by wadelitvany@shaw.ca

I was hoping to have a few questions solved re:1962 GMC 3/4 Ton 4x4 front Disk brake conversion.I have learned a lot from the previous posts but still have some issues.
1.The original drum and backing plate is removed and replaced with newer GMC caliper mounting plate.(What year will fit and must it be off of a 4x4?)
2.The axle spindle must be replaced because of the caliper/rotor positioning?What year of spindle,rotor and disc would work best?
3.The original outer axle needs machining 1.312" to fit the newer spindle with needle bearing vs. bushing ?
4.What vacuum booster and master cylinder / proportioning valve would work best?
5.When this is put together,what is the best lubricant for the closed knuckle?
Thanks everybody in advance for the input

I haven't done this yet myself but researched it enough I think I can answer you questions. Some of your questions depend on 3/4 ton or 1/2 ton.
1. Yes off a dana 44 with disc brakes 6 lug or 8 depending on what you have.
2. Yes that's why the spindle must be replaced. Again I don't think it matters just a dana 44 again 6 or 8 lug.
3. Yes it needs to be turned down to fit the needle bearings.
4. Depends on the year of you truck. If it's 67-69 you could just use what they used on the newer models that came with disc brakes. If your truck is a 60-66, look up Capt. Fab for your answer. If you still have a single master clyinder be prepared to bend some new brake lines.
5. I've never used anything but 90w in both my closed knuckle 44s with no issues.
Hope that helps

[elpound]

Thanks for the info. I'm one of those strange birds that like the looks of the closed knuckle axle. Don't the open knuckle axles use ball joints vs king pins for closed knuckle?

[BLT gmc]

#5- Novak Conversions has recommended grease mixed with 90 to 140 oil to a consistency of very thick pancake batter. I have also used corn head grease. I believe original this closed knuckle lube was called semi-liquid grease.
Posted via Mobile Device

[61K10]

this is what i put in mine to keep the knuckle bearings lubed. I put regular u-joints on the axles as tk won't see alot of 4wd.

[Bruce A. Frank]

Originally Posted by 61K10

this is what i put in mine to keep the knuckle bearings lubed. I put regular u-joints on the axles as tk won't see alot of 4wd.

The corn head grease is exactly the type needed, and it is called liquid grease, or fluid grease, designated as "00" and is available from several manufactures. Castrol make a good one.



This is a synthetic version of the 00 semi-liquid grease which lasts virtually forever. Doesn't break down from heat nor does it emulsify with water.

Packing the closed hub with regular grease does keep it from leaking out, but the grease is pushed away where the U-joint rotates so there is no on-going lubrication of the joint. The semi-liquid characteristic of the 00 lube allows it to pool around the U-joint seeping into the joint needles when the vehicle is sitting. BTW, if you install new U-Joints that happen to have the rubber lip seals around the edge of the needle bearing cup, remove those seals.

In an open knuckle those U-joint cup seals keep dirt out. In a closed knuckle they keep grease out. From experience I have found that the joints that have the seals removed so they get re-lubed by the pooling fluid grease, last longer than the U-joints do if the bearing cup seals are left in place. The churning of the joint rotates actually liquefies the grease around it letting the bearings to get grease. The liquification when churned is a characteristic called "thixotrophic."

Over the years I have used several brands of 00 semi liquid grease and they don't tend to leak even if the ball wiper seals are in poor shape.

[elpound]

Originally Posted by Bruce A. Frank

The corn head grease is exactly the type needed, and it is called liquid grease, or fluid grease, designated as "00" and is available from several manufactures. Castrol make a good one.



This is a synthetic version of the 00 semi-liquid grease which lasts virtually forever. Doesn't break down from heat nor does it emulsify with water.

Packing the closed hub with regular grease does keep it from leaking out, but the grease is pushed away where the U-joint rotates so there is no on-going lubrication of the joint. The semi-liquid characteristic of the 00 lube allows it to pool around the U-joint seeping into the joint needles when the vehicle is sitting. BTW, if you install new U-Joints that happen to have the rubber lip seals around the edge of the needle bearing cup, remove those seals.

In an open knuckle those U-joint cup seals keep dirt out. In a closed knuckle they keep grease out. From experience I have found that the joints that have the seals removed so they get re-lubed by the pooling fluid grease, last longer than the U-joints do if the bearing cup seals are left in place. The churning of the joint rotates actually liquefies the grease around it letting the bearings to get grease. The liquification when churned is a characteristic called "thixotrophic."

Over the years I have used several brands of 00 semi liquid grease and they don't tend to leak even if the ball wiper seals are in poor shape.

Thanks for the great information!

[61K10]

Dan, (i know it's an old thread) what calp brake hose's did you use? Longer?

[jeffahart]

I have some John Deere AN102562, just because they are the ones that developed it for their corn heads. Nice for certain gear boxes that develop class III leaks, as a stop gap before maintenance or replacement. But it can be used as a maintenance free long term oil in some gear boxes if you live in a warmer climate. Good to have on your shelf for sure.

[Bruce A. Frank]

There has been debate over the use of the Corn Head grease in closed knuckles on 4X4s. This type of grease has been on the recommended list for closed knuckle lube since such axles have been in use.

It is true that with good lip seals with the ball surface in good condition (smooth) 90W to 140W gear lube works well. But over time the ball wears, particularly evident on older vehicles, that make it near impossible to keep the gear lubes in the knuckle even with new seals and wipers.

But you will find that Dana included these 00 liquid grease lubricants on their recommended lists of proper lubes for closed knuckle axles.

There has also been some debate about some grease formulations' compatibility with bronze bushings and other non-ferrous bearings. Selecting a modern synthetic version of the 00 grease just eliminates the question.

Let me add that my first 4X4 was twenty years old when I got it. Over the years of putting 250,000 additional miles on it with different standard and liquid greases in the closed knuckles, I never say any corrosion of the bronze bushings or bearings in my axle. There may be technical info that says there might be such problems, but nothing showing in 250,000 miles seems a reasonable longevity test.

[61K10]

I mixed some 90w with my cornhead (small amount) seems to work just fine.