New Steering stuff; alignment issues

[swissarmychainsaw]

Truck: 1975 2wd 350/350 Gentleman Jim

The truck is new-ish to me; I'm in the process of making it go stop, and turn
correctly (etc. etc. etc. etc. you know the drill).

The front end was a mess, it "wandered" when it went down the road, pulled
left and bounced.

4 New tires
Pitman
Idler
Tie Rods (all)

Make it MUCH better. I did shade tree alignment on it, and got it to go pretty straight down the road. Since the tires are new, I figured an alignment would be smart.

The PROBLEM: Does not return to center.
Turn a corner and the wheel sorta comes back to center but not all the way.
Point left STAY left! It should straighten up and center the steering wheel.
It's not to the point where you can't drive it, but I know it can be better.

SO! To the alignment shop I went this AM.
I told them about the "not returning to center problem".

They just called and said the TOE was way off. They fixed that. I asked him if the tech drove it (cause now days you can't actually TALK to the people who turn wrenches). He said yeah it does not return to center, and so I ask "and why do you think that is?"
"well, you know it's an old truck"

The whole reason I own something like this is so that I can do the work on it myself and not have to deal with people who say moronic things like that.

My research says the the issue here is CASTER which is the relationship of the upper ball joint to the lower. (front to back)
Namely that I need MORE CASTER, which will improve "return to center".
hey, we need a picture:




CAMBER:



Now One thing, the ball joints have NOT been replaced.

I'm willing to bet a sandwhich that for the $80 they charge they are not willing to go unbolting **** to get the camber and caster sorted out right?

So what do I do? I'm about to go pick it up, and I can either:
Give them the info they need to fix it (i.e. the specs)
Take it somewhere else
Fix it my own self.

Thoughts?

[BMERDOC]

You're right about the caster. It should have as much dialed in as possible. You can get some decent caster out of the stock front end but it will still not "flick" exactly back to center like you want it to. You'll have to be close to 5 degrees before that happens. My advice is to tell them to start over with NO shims and equal it out from there. They will have to do caster/camber first and revisit toe. Any shop that will not let you talk to the mechanic should be wiped off your list. Show us your print out when you get it. GET A PRINTOUT! That way we know what you got for your money.

[swissarmychainsaw]

Doc -- been reading your posts, thanks for your contributions!

I'll get the print out for sure and post it up here tonight.

[BMERDOC]

Here is some light reading for you.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=582187

[swissarmychainsaw]

Ok here's the results.

I was pretty underwhelmed with the place.

The overall conversation did not go all that well. I asked a bunch of questions, and said "this does not fix the problem".

Basically the guy said "alignment is not your problem, we think it's the steering gear box".
I asked about the thrust angle and they said there is no way to change the alignment of the rear and that you "align the front to match the rear".
So what's the difference between a 2 wheel and 4 wheel alignment?

I stopped by my local mechanic and showed him the paperwork. He ALSO said: Steering box!

What next?

[BMERDOC]

UUuuughh! You don't even have a full degree of caster! Their machine doesn't even have specs for it. And barely any negative camber. You would have been better off taking out the shims yourself and just asked them to set toe! Take a photo of your shim packs. I'd love to see them. I wouldn't write off the box. As far as thrust is concerned, they are right. With a stock rear suspension you can't adjust it. .24 isn't terrible from the feedback I have received. I'm thinking it could be set to 0 with a double adjustable Panhard rod. A 1/4 degree shouldn't be hard to make up and cause concern that you are putting the rear suspension in a bind. They did do a four wheel alignment but not a very good one. Its what we call "Toe and Go".

[swissarmychainsaw]

Well, it's too dark to get a decent photo and It seems to be better with the tire off, so that'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Maybe time to shop around for a better alignment shop?

I looked online but I could not find the specs for this truck. It's not in the Haynes manual I have either (not saying much).

Anyone have that? Thanks for the help!

Nick

[swissarmychainsaw]

Well, it's too dark to get a decent photo and It seems to be better with the tire off, so that'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Maybe time to shop around for a better alignment shop?

I looked online but I could not find the specs for this truck. It's not in the Haynes manual I have either (not saying much).

Anyone have that? Thanks for the help!

Nick

[BMERDOC]

I looked at my final specs on my last alignment and the camber was -.3° so I guess that's not too bad. I've only been able to align mine so I'm not sure of the variances between trucks. Again, the shim packs don't lie. Your main concern was Return to Center and although it will improve at close to 3.0°, like mine, you'll still have to help it that last little bit to center it up.

[BMERDOC]

Don't be too worried about the specs if you can find a shop that will work with you. You can't dial in enough bad stuff to burn up tires with a stock suspension (except toe). If it makes you feel better...

-.1° to -1.00 Camber
2.00 to 3.00 Caster
1/16" toe per side (1/8" total) Their spec in degrees is fine but IIRC 1/16" is .14°

[BMERDOC]

oh yeah, I forgot I was in the Square body forum so disregard any foolishness about a Panhard bar. :/

[Alex V.]

I took my '85 C3500 to the local tire/alignment shop to have it aligned once... just once.

Before I got it, it appeared that the upper A-frame bushings had become warn and the pivot shaft had just been shimmed out to compensate for it - it looked like it worked for the most part, judging by the tire wear. But when I replaced the bushings the wheel had way too much camber, so I took it to our preferred alignment shop to have that corrected. I'm not sure if this was/is par for the course, or if the guy doing the alignment was just a dummy - but during the alignment he jacked the front wheels off the ground at least once, let it back down, and aligned the front end without rolling the truck to let the IFS seek its natural position again! Now, I was 18 or 19 at the time, but I knew from being around the Corvettes my dad works on that, after jacking up a car with independent suspension, it doesn't land back in the same position when you let it back down and it's necessary to roll the car to let the suspension find its normal position again. I think the truck was actually worse after the alignment than before, and since that experience I do all my own suspension adjustments.

I think you'll be glad you learned how to do it in the long run.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

I found that with new front end parts on my truck it took a few hundred miles before all the new components loosened up and "broke in"

From what I can remember looking up the specs for a square I recall about 3.5* caster. Ole have to double check my manual but from what my local alignment shop told me (it's a good shop) they could squeeze about 4.5* castor max from my susp before I moved my lower control arm forward.

[swissarmychainsaw]

Shim Pics as promised:

First two (the hard to see ones) are the drivers side, the others are passenger.

[BMERDOC]

Well its obvious they didn't touch them. Your shim pack aren't too thick. I've seen some that made the nut level with the end of the bolt. They got away with it because everything is within spec (except for caster which conveniently doesn't show a spec). If you want better return to center that caster has to be corrected. When you get around to replacing those control arm bushings consider doing the Caster Mod for even more caster, the kind you are looking for.

[swissarmychainsaw]

I was looking at Caster/Camber gauges. Since they are *about the same price as getting an alignment, I figure "why not".

Seems you can get a pack of shims for around $30 and an alignment tool for $200?

I got a lead on a local place that might do me better, I might head over there and just feel them out, see what they can do for me.

http://www.eastwood.com/fasttrax-cam...ter-gauge.html

[BMERDOC]

I won't tell you not to buy the equipment but I would agree with you to dig deeper and seek out an alignment shop that is willing to help. Most places align Hondas and Toyotas all day. I doubt the place you went to even had their own set of shims (BTW a shim set is cheap at HF). I doubt the guy that did the alignment has EVER done a shim alignment. A Chassis shop or Race Shop may be a better alternative. I hate to say "wish you were closer" so I won't I'm almost begging those who live close to me to come get a free alignment so I can play with another truck.

[swissarmychainsaw]

I found a shop close to my work that sounds like they can/will/want to/ do the work.

The main guy has a 53 pickup on a 67 frame, which to me is a hell of a good sign. He said "we did my truck and got it all sorted out" so he was confident they could get mine done. He was not the alignment tech, but seemed like maybe an owner of the place (pics of his kids around the office).

So, I'm going to drop it off Wednesday after work for Thursday am fixing.

Fingers crossed but I have a good feeling about this place.

I would still love to have "official numbers" for this truck just in case they need them.

Thanks again all!
Nick

[INSIDIOUS '86]

I would have them dial in as much castor as possible up to 7* but stay with the camber and toe settings recommended

[swissarmychainsaw]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

I would have them dial in as much castor as possible up to 7* but stay with the camber and toe settings recommended

Thanks! What manual is this from, Insidious? I only have a Haynes and it does not have that info.

Originally Posted by jjzepplin

I used to work at an alignment shop and the first thing you do is check for loose parts. If anything is loose-no alignment.
<snip>
I would replace all the control arm bushings and do the lower control arm caster mod pull those shim packs and buy a new shim pack and give all of the shims to the new alignment shop and go from there.
<snip>
Unrelated question- what is holding your shocks from coming off? Some sort of carriage shock bolt? Always hated those and never installed them on customer vehicles as it makes it a beeotch to change the shocks later on.

I checked for loose stuff when I put the steering stuff on, AND I had it checked by a real (cough*) mechanic. Nothing looked loose, or otherwise messed up.

I agree that it's a good idea to replace the control arm bushing but I just can't do it right now. I just picked up this truck, and it did not feel safe to drive. My goal is to get the basics covered and then go from there. There's lots to do and I have to budget and prioritize. Truth is, as it is now, it is tolerable to drive. I just Know i can get it a bit better.

I wondered about the shock mount also. And the short answer is "I don't know".

$80 for Toe setting, when coupled with the fact that I HAVE TO DO IT AGAIN when I take it to a real shop is next to robbery.

Once these guy fix it I may take it back, and just ask for a refund. That seems better than an nasty note on YELP, no?

Thanks again guys. Good feeling on this one.

What is the "lower control arm caster mod"? This: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=501241

Nick

[jjzepplin]

I used to work at an alignment shop and the first thing you do is check for loose parts. If anything is loose-no alignment. You can get things close in a "resting" position but once that vehicle starts rolling down the road things change with old loose parts (bushings are the main culprit). I would replace all the control arm bushings and do the lower control arm caster mod pull those shim packs and buy a new shim pack and give all of the shims to the new alignment shop and go from there.
Steering boxes CAN be the culprit if adjusted too tight but not many shops will do that.
They did not even touch your shim packs so all they could have done is your toe.
80 bucks for a toe setting is crazy expensive in my book.
Unrelated question- what is holding your shocks from coming off? Some sort of carriage shock bolt? Always hated those and never installed them on customer vehicles as it makes it a beeotch to change the shocks later on.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

It was a chiltons manual. And yes that would be the castor mod. Don't leave home without it lol. Also typically the pitman/idler arms are what get loose and then the lower ball joints.

[swissarmychainsaw]

So I got it back from the alignment shop (second time, different place).
You can see the changes in Caster to "customer requested specs" of between Positive 2 degrees 30 to 3 degrees 30.

It drives better, but it's still not 100%, in my opinion.

I should have bought the tool and done it myself. I almost always walk away from a shop dissapointed, with the spend vs results.

Next I'm going to do the adjustment on the Saginaw steering box and see if that makes a difference.

The goal: Better "return to center". Right now the steering feels tight after the pitman/idler arms and tie rods. Been driving it ~40 miles per day for the last couple weeks so that *should be past any break in period needed.

Always appreciate feedback!
Nick

[BMERDOC]

Caster looks better. Camber is still positive. The bad part is that the print out is a Hunter print out and they probably have the "Match using Cross specs" button like I pointed out in post #4

[swissarmychainsaw]

Originally Posted by BMERDOC

Caster looks better. Camber is still positive. The bad part is that the print out is a Hunter print out and they probably have the "Match using Cross specs" button like I pointed out in post #4

How long do you think this job should take?