Belltech 3/4 or 4/6

[Shugalou]

Researching both kits right now and when talking with sales guy he said the 4/6 looks way better cuz the rear gets nice and low.

Concerns
I have stock ralleys and don't want to grind anything to make it fit and I don't want to buy new tires and rims to make it work

C-Notch - the sales rep said I would need to C notch the rear - this would be something a shop would have to do.

Truck
78 GMC short step, with 305 and 1.25 rotors

Does anyone have experience with the 3/4? It's cheaper which I like but I want to make sure that I'll be happy with the looks and performance.

The kits
3/4
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...06nd/overview/
4/6
http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...05nd/overview/

Any feedback is appreciated!

[SkinnyG]

You ~will~ have to grind the control arms to clear factory 15x8's with BellTech spindles.

You may not have to with other manufacturer spindles. I don't know.

In my eye, the flip kit is the perfect amount of lowering out back. Spindles and a coil cut up front are perfectly fine. Cutting a coil is free. If you can weld, for $12 you can buy new spring perches and weld them to your axle, correcting any pinion angle issues at the same time.

I c-notched my truck, but I don't think it's really necessary. If you do, the differential will hit the bed before the axles hit the frame, which might be worse for the life of the axle. On the other hand, notched frame rails certainly add room if you're going around a corner and hit a bump with the outside. Just saying I don't know if it was worth it. I say flip it, and see if you need to notch it - cross that bridge if you get there.

And I've hauled 1700lbs of sand in the back of the flipped truck.

[Shugalou]

Thanks for the reply Skinny. I'm under the impression that no grinding is required with a 3/4 Belltech kit is this correct?

I wish I bought those springs that were mispriced a while back to try a cut, I was dead set on buying drop springs at the time.

And yes cross that bridge when I get there. I will start with the easiest route and see what I think it needs.

Unfortunately I don't own or know how to weld yet so that out.

A tip for anyone else looking to get a "kit" a local shop gave me a price that was a fair bit cheaper than the kit prices and all they did was add the parts separately instead of choosing the "kit"

[Shugalou]

Skinny great site you have there - probably spent 45 minutes reading your projects!

[bbbc10]

Go 5/7 lol with spindless u will have to grind the control arm but with western chassis spindles u wont have to do anything but bolt them up dont cut ur springs at all jus get some drop springs an run a flip kit in the rear if u go lower than 6" u must notch it also some good shocks an also some shock extenders for the rear also

[Shugalou]

I think 5 7 might be too much. Is that right that there is no grinding required with that brand?

I don't want to loose any functionality with the truck.

[bbbc10]

Mine was 5/7 an drove it daily and still used it as a "truck" out of all the spindle brands western chassis is the only one u dont have to grind to clearence for the wheels i also had western chassis 2.5" springs also belltech 6" flip kit with c-notch, also shock extenders for the rear with belltech drop shocks on all 4 corners.....oh an 1" blocks to get to 7" on the rear....i bought all my parts new from summit racing and the flip kit from a local shop for 200 bucks an all together i spent almost a grand for the parts

[Shugalou]

BBBC

Sounds like a great set up and that price sounds good too. The best I have found up here for the 3/4 belltech is 875. After I read your post I called back inquiring if they carried western chassis brand and they don't

[bbbc10]

Shop around first dont just jump on a kit.....I did the install myself also, took a weekend to do also

[Shugalou]

I spend most of the day shopping around - unfortunately there aren't as many options for us Canadians and it doesn't make sense to buy from the US with the dollar conversion, duty fees and shipping.

Definitely going to install myself

[SkinnyG]

I got BellTech spindles through LordCo, our local auto arts store much like NAPA. They happen to carry some speed parts. Same place I got my 1-ton coils.

Keep an eye on your local craigslist or equivalent, and there likely is a few "used speed part" pages on Facebook near you. These parts are pretty common, they show up.

My last truck was a Nissan Hardbody - I ran it with unwound torsion bars, and I ran it with BellTech spindles. The spindles were an improvement for sure, but not $235CDN improvement. They did not put a a $235 smile on my face. Unwound torsion bars would have been just fine.

On my Silverado, I bought spindles because I know they are better geometrically. Do they really make that huge a difference? Ummmm..... Dunno. I think the wheels scrub more on tight turns because the ackerman is worse, and I had to grind the control arms to clear.....

But, you could just lop two coils off your existing springs, trim down the bumpstops so you're not riding on them (maybe a finger gap of clearance?), and see what you think. If you can live with it, you just saved hundreds of dollars. If you cannot, save your pennies, and keep an eye out for spindles. Oh, and get an alignment.

Tens of thousands of people have cut coils on these trucks over the years, it's absolutely fine.

[SkinnyG]

Also check your local auto wreckers. I often cruise through the truck section with an eye out for a truck with spindles. To Pick-N-Pull, it's just a spindle, but to me, dropped spindles say "eBay money maker."

[Shugalou]

Skinny thanks for the details.

I have checked kijiji and have found nothing yet...I'm not in a huge rush so I'll keep checking while I rebuild the upper and lowers.

I'll probably avoid the pick and pull as that sounds like an afternoon of searching for a needle in a haystack and I wouldn't be sure what I was getting...I would like a deal but don't want to go to hell and back to get it.

I'm aware people cut coils all the time and I'm sure you get the desired drop but how is the ride compromised? Can the spring pop out because the top isn't flattened like stock - probably not...but I would prefer to do it with parts designed to work together and would rather save up a bit longer to do it that way.

Anyone have any picts or info on the 3/4 kit?

[bbbc10]

Im sure they cut the bottom of the spring.....only pics i have is my 5/7 lol

[SkinnyG]

The ride is mainly only compromised by travel. Trimming the bumpstops regains some of that travel.

Another compromise is ride quality - assuming you are not hammering the bumpstops (they should have been trimmed), cutting coils increases the spring rate of the coil. Realistically, you will not notice a difference.

Another compromise is tire wear - because the lower control arms are now angled upwards with cut coils, there is more lateral movement of the tire over bumps (called scrub), which will wear out your front tires more quickly. Realistically, this won't be much of a change or cost.

Another theoretical compromise is bumpsteer - the steering links and control arms end up moving further out of their intended and engineered range of motion, and the vehicle may react differently to bumps than stock. Truthfully - your brain will subconsciously accommodate this and you likely will never notice. Only the fussiest of drivers, with the tightest of sphincter and the whitest of teeth would notice.

There is the possibility that the spring may become loose at full droop if it is cut so short that there is no longer any "pre-load" when assembled). This is actually less of a problem than you think, unless you are getting air born. It ~may~ be something to keep in mind when changing tires - just re-center the coil as you lower the truck. I don't know if two coils would make it that short. I have about 1-3/4 coils cut off 1-ton springs.... And spindles....

KEEP IN MIND....

1) GM designed a truck, not a Ferrari. It was not engineering perfection to begin with. Cutting coils will work just fine.

2) Aftermarket has to make compromises to the component to get you what you want. These might be better, or they might be even less than optimal. You are kind of "trusting" that they know what they are doing. From the spindles I have installed, they are making further compromises to the geometry - their purpose is to get you riding low, but still have travel.

(long post, but I am very passionate about suspension, suspension design, geometry, and the like)

[J Knight]

Originally Posted by SkinnyG

The ride is mainly only compromised by travel. Trimming the bumpstops regains some of that travel.

Another compromise is ride quality - assuming you are not hammering the bumpstops (they should have been trimmed), cutting coils increases the spring rate of the coil. Realistically, you will not notice a difference.

Another compromise is tire wear - because the lower control arms are now angled upwards with cut coils, there is more lateral movement of the tire over bumps (called scrub), which will wear out your front tires more quickly. Realistically, this won't be much of a change or cost.

Another theoretical compromise is bumpsteer - the steering links and control arms end up moving further out of their intended and engineered range of motion, and the vehicle may react differently to bumps than stock. Truthfully - your brain will subconsciously accommodate this and you likely will never notice. Only the fussiest of drivers, with the tightest of sphincter and the whitest of teeth would notice.

There is the possibility that the spring may become loose at full droop if it is cut so short that there is no longer any "pre-load" when assembled). This is actually less of a problem than you think, unless you are getting air born. It ~may~ be something to keep in mind when changing tires - just re-center the coil as you lower the truck. I don't know if two coils would make it that short. I have about 1-3/4 coils cut off 1-ton springs.... And spindles....

KEEP IN MIND....

1) GM designed a truck, not a Ferrari. It was not engineering perfection to begin with. Cutting coils will work just fine.

2) Aftermarket has to make compromises to the component to get you what you want. These might be better, or they might be even less than optimal. You are kind of "trusting" that they know what they are doing. From the spindles I have installed, they are making further compromises to the geometry - their purpose is to get you riding low, but still have travel.

(long post, but I am very passionate about suspension, suspension design, geometry, and the like)

Very true post!

I can add that 2 1/4 round cut off 1/2 ton coils will fall out of place when the truck is lifted off the ground.

This truck back in '86 had 2 1/4 cut coils and no spindles.

Disregard the over dressed couple....its the only pic I still have of the truck.

[Shugalou]

Skinny I appreciate the knowledge sharing this line here cracked me up

Only the fussiest of drivers, with the tightest of sphincter and the whitest of teeth would notice

I am new to truck suspension as this is my first experience with it.
After reading your post I looked at the springs included in the kit and there isn't any details on spring rate or height. - Than I looked harder and realized this kit picture confused the hell out of me. I don't think it even includes drop springs and doesn't show the picture of the spindles.

Looking at the spring it looks like a standard spring (hopefully shorter). I was expecting more of linear style spring - similar to cars...I'm guessing linear springs aren't available due to the offroad nature? I did see that eibach makes springs in my research I'll have to check them out for info.

[SkinnyG]

Originally Posted by Shugalou

After reading your post I looked at the springs included in the kit and there isn't any details on spring rate or height. - Than I looked harder and realized this kit picture confused the hell out of me. I don't think it even includes drop springs and doesn't show the picture of the spindles.

The ad says (paraphrased): this is just A picture, not THE picture.

[jones9j]

You can get a kit direct from Bell tech cheaper then what your looking at. and you wont have to grind much and it doesnt affect the truck at all. And I wouldnt waste my money on the 3/4, I say go 5/7 cause thats where your going to end up anyway. Just ask anyone who has done a 2/4 or 3/4, most have always went lower after the fact.

[cheap]

I'm running CPP 2.5" drop spindles, running stock 15x8 rallyes with 1.25 rotors and it required no grinding. +1 to cutting one coil off, set my truck perfect with a flip kit. Cutting off the rear bumpstop brackets is required, but i have no c-notch and have never hit the frame. You will also need to either weld new spring perches to the axle, and have the leaf spring locating hole thing drilled 1" forward from the center, or most 'flip kits' will have this already done.

[Shugalou]

J night - Dang you got thing low by only chopping the springs and I love the pict!!!

Skinny Yeah I saw that phrase to but **** come on at least show a spindle

Jones - Our options up here are limited, I have called the distributors in my area and their prices were more expensive than the shop that pieced the kit together. I was waiting for someone to chime in against the 3/4. I'm worried that it might not be enough but I really wanted to avoid the grinding - mostly because I have no idea what is needed and have only hear people say it was a pain in the ass.

Cheap do you happen to have picts of the stance? I was quoted 425 for the CPP spindles. I haven't researched enough to totally understand how the rear flip kit works yet but welding in spring perches sounds beyond my skills and tools.

Guys I appreciate the info it has helped a lot.

I'll search the site to see if I can find a picture of the required grinding

[J Knight]

Originally Posted by Shugalou

J night - Dang you got thing low by only chopping the springs and I love the pict!!!

I haven't researched enough to totally understand how the rear flip kit works yet but welding in spring perches sounds beyond my skills and tools.

Guys I appreciate the info it has helped a lot.

I'll search the site to see if I can find a picture of the required grinding

This is the basics of how a flip kit works.

[SkinnyG]

[bigblock73]

You don't need to weld in perches on a flip, and I have never had to shim the axle for pinion angle. Flip kits are cheap and easy to install. I prefer the flip kits with the reinforced brackets (bell tech, western chassis) as opposed to the non-reinforced brackets jknignt posted. I am sure they work just fine, I just prefer a better engineered bracket personally. I also never run shock extenders, they stick down too far for my liking...I prefer to run drop shocks. Also, never reuse old Ubolts...buy new ones, they are inexpensive and safer to use versus 30 year old hardware that has seen corrosion and stretched threads.

[Shugalou]

Skinny thanks for the pict it doesn't look that bad - did you grind it all the way down or cut and smooth with grinder?

J Night - thanks for that pict - so if I'm understanding how it works is that it raises the axel height and lowers the shock mount?