Adjusting Camber & Caster

[eightbanger]

I have spent most of the evening reading through the old posts on this and not really found a definitive answer...the question is.
Do I need my wheels in the air, or on the ground to measure my Camber & Caster?

[Alex Hayley]

When I did a rough measurement to give me time before getting an alignment, I did it with the wheels on the ground.

[Hottrucks]

First off what did you do??? some times the toe in/out may get a bit bumped out but not the caster camber?

anyway you need to do it on the ground..............

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by Alex Hayley

When I did a rough measurement to give me time before getting an alignment, I did it with the wheels on the ground.

Thanks Alex, it was one of your old posts I read when searching.

Originally Posted by Hottrucks

First off what did you do??? some times the toe in/out may get a bit bumped out but not the caster camber?

anyway you need to do it on the ground..............

I'll try to make this short, since owned it has pulled to the left D/S tire worn on outside edge, could not have the alignment done as all the suspension and steering was worn out and needed replacing. Just re-did the front end all new parts so took it to have the Tracking/Alignment done, but here in the UK they will not touch Camber/Caster on a vehicle they know nothing about, I mean it's up on the ramp and the guy says "so what is it?" I tell him Chevy C10 and it was pure luck when they discovered that Chevrolet C10's wheel alignment settings were on there computer database amongst all the Renaults and Toyauto's. So he adjusts it for Toe and the readout shows that the Camber is out but that can't be done, so I leave and it feels better but still pulls to the left, better than before but still pulling.

Here's the readout for those that understand this stuff.

[GruntMoanCough]

Assuming nothing is bent, measure between the lower ball joint and a control point (symetrical hole) on the frame, somewhere around the front cab mount. This won't give you a caster measurement but, will let you know if the front wheels are both evenly forward.
There should be shims where the upper control arm bolts to the frame. remove or add shims as necessary to set camber to specs.
Then, set your toe adjustment.

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by GruntMoanCough

Assuming nothing is bent, measure between the lower ball joint and a control point (symetrical hole) on the frame, somewhere around the front cab mount. This won't give you a caster measurement but, will let you know if the front wheels are both evenly forward.
There should be shims where the upper control arm bolts to the frame. remove or add shims as necessary to set camber to specs.
Then, set your toe adjustment.

Thanks GMC, I will do that, I couldn't work out how I was going to get a reference point for the vertical to check Caster.

[GruntMoanCough]

Glad to be of some help. Also, adding/removing shims from the front/rear upper control arm mounts will move the upper ball joint fore/aft to give you caster adjustment, if needed.

[MudBug]

You can buy a caster/camber gage like the one from www.longacre.com, look under chassis setup and set everything yourself.The whole process shouldn't take much more than an hour or so if everything is new in the front of the truck.The Longarce website also does a good job of explaining caster/camber and how it works.

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by MudBug

You can buy a caster/camber gage like the one from www.longacre.com, look under chassis setup and set everything yourself.The whole process shouldn't take much more than an hour or so if everything is new in the front of the truck.The Longarce website also does a good job of explaining caster/camber and how it works.

I'll do a search for that Longacre site MB, as that link sent me to a teenagers leadership program..
Thank you for the info anyway.

[Hottrucks]

Hey Eight when you look at your truck do the wheels look tipped in or out???.....Maybe its just me but I have set more cars/trucks and hot rods up on a flat surface with a framing square and a tape measure than I care to admit and they all went down the road straight and even my bagged truck tire wear isn't and issue ( on the front LMAO)

one thing to check is to the get the wheels straight and measure from the lip of the front to the lip of the rear rims just to make sure things are Square also take a quick look at the shims on the Upper control arm the stack thats in there should be pretty close to even......

and remember that any adjustments to the control arms will reflect on the toe...I measure up off the floor as high as the under carrige will allow and mark the tires at that height on the front and rear side then measure across the front and then the rear the front should be about 1/8 to 1/4" narrower giving you a bit of toe in

[JRBECK64]

eightbanger,
Not sure what Caster and Camber is but since I restored my Sons 69 Longfleet we replaced everything up front with new and now it looks like an Old Man with Bad Knees. The top of the tires are way in and the bottoms are way out. I think I can adjust them with the shims that go on the top A Arm but have never messed with this. I usually just take it to the local Alignment shop but I have spent so much money on this thing that spending money has become and issue. I know that adjusting Toe in or Toe out is adjusted with the Tie Rods and the shims should take care of the Old Man Knee Look. Ive heard that you need to either go out farther or in farther at the top of the tire so when you set in the truck it settles to the right alignment (Not sure which one it is). I probably should just take this thing to the alignment shop and get beat up about the money later.
JRBECK64

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by JRBECK64

eightbanger,
Not sure what Caster and Camber is but since I restored my Sons 69 Longfleet we replaced everything up front with new and now it looks like an Old Man with Bad Knees. The top of the tires are way in and the bottoms are way out. I think I can adjust them with the shims that go on the top A Arm but have never messed with this. I usually just take it to the local Alignment shop but I have spent so much money on this thing that spending money has become and issue. I know that adjusting Toe in or Toe out is adjusted with the Tie Rods and the shims should take care of the Old Man Knee Look. Ive heard that you need to either go out farther or in farther at the top of the tire so when you set in the truck it settles to the right alignment (Not sure which one it is). I probably should just take this thing to the alignment shop and get beat up about the money later.
JRBECK64

Thanks JRBECK64 I did have the Toe in/out corrected at the alignment shop so that is as it should be, I just have this whole added problem were no British alignment shop will take on anything like Caster/Camber on a 71 Chevy C10, my Truck is a complete unknown to them, hell, they would not have done the Toe if they hadn't found the settings on there Computer. In a way this is all good as i've already learnt so much about tracking our Trucks i'll be able to do the complete alignment myself, and down the road I may invest in a few proper tools to help do the job.

Originally Posted by Hottrucks

one thing to check is to the get the wheels straight and measure from the lip of the front to the lip of the rear rims just to make sure things are Square also take a quick look at the shims on the Upper control arm the stack that's in there should be pretty close to even......

and remember that any adjustments to the control arms will reflect on the toe...I measure up off the floor as high as the under carriage will allow and mark the tires at that height on the front and rear side then measure across the front and then the rear the front should be about 1/8 to 1/4" narrower giving you a bit of toe in

Did all of this this morning before I saw your post Jeff...This is what I did. With the Truck level and the steering straight I measured across the tires at the front I got 70 3/4"....at the back I got 70 7/8" so this shows the alignment guys got it right as I have 1/8 Toe in which is where it's supposed to be.
Then I used a couple of my levels and got an idea how much my Camber was out.....



Passenger side


Drivers side


Last of all was the Caster and GMC had said....

"measure between the lower ball joint and a control point (symetrical hole) on the frame, somewhere around the front cab mount. This won't give you a caster measurement but, will let you know if the front wheels are both evenly forward"

I did this and from top of the lower B/J to the forward edge of front cab mount bracket D/S was 29" and the P/S 29 1/2"....so I know that on the vertical plain looking at the wheels side on which is Caster my wheels are out by 1/2".
The next thing to do is loosen off the upper control arms and add or subtract Shims to correct the Camber/Caster on both wheels,

Doing this will alter the Toe in/out again, so for speed I can just pop back to the Alignment guys and have it reset.

[GruntMoanCough]

Re -check your lower ball joint position again, from a few different places on the frame (use the holes, they are more accurate). This has to be correct first, before you can carry on.
Also, try measuring to a point on the lower control arm, as the top of the lower ball joint will move some from the position of the upper control arm.
Could your lower control arm bushings be worn or the lower control arm itself be bent?

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by GruntMoanCough

Re -check your lower ball joint position again, from a few different places on the frame (use the holes, they are more accurate). This has to be correct first, before you can carry on.
Also, try measuring to a point on the lower control arm, as the top of the lower ball joint will move some from the position of the upper control arm.
Could your lower control arm bushings be worn or the lower control arm itself be bent?

Whoops!! should have thought of that, the top of the ball joint being a moving part, I replaced the shafts and bushings as part of the rebuild and the A arms seemed fine. I'll remeasure and try to get a more dependable reading. But as this is the UK and summertime..it's now pissing down so I can't get back out there.

[Hottrucks]

well it appears that your pass side is in a bit to much I would add a couple shims ( same thicknees) to the top of that side (with a fancy level you can read the angle in degrees) Just be sure that your truck is on a flat LEVEL surface before you start.......as far as the alignment since you now have the #'s your adjustmnet will be on that side (PS) just loosen the tie rod adjuster bolts and with a bit of a turn it will go right back to where it's set now!! these guys know as little or less than you do know so why bother them or tie up your truck...


Hint loosen: up the top A arm and then slide a jack under the X memeber with a little lift you will get the space to add the shims then set it down and roll it back and forth a few feet so it will settle back down nicely and check it again...just be sure to tighen everything down and run it!!.....I bet you have longer taking out the tools and putting them away then doing the adjustment...

or if you have a 3 foot pry bar you can just loosen the bolts and pry out the upper A arm shaft and slide in your shims

[Hottrucks]

Also keep in mind these are trucks and from the 70's the tolerances where NO where near what they are today!!! nor did they have the fancy tools to align them....in 1970 who knew what a laser alignment was ( oh it was what Captain Kerk used ) or a dam cell phone

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by Hottrucks

Also keep in mind these are trucks and from the 70's the tolerances where NO where near what they are today!!! nor did they have the fancy tools to align them....in 1970 who knew what a laser alignment was ( oh it was what Captain Kerk used ) or a dam cell phone

Hallelujah brother.!! "Spock! you've got to get us out of here."

Thanks man....your a pal.

I will post back on this thread how it all turns out.

[fleetimus]

Suggestion: Put one 1/8th" shim in the rear position on the pass side upper control arm. Check your toe-in and drive. This should pull the camber out a little and help the drift to the left.

Also, switch your front tires side to side. You may have a slight tire pull.

[eightbanger]

OK! I just got through setting the alignment up DIY style and I have to say I am pretty pleased, i've got no pull to the left at all now, I also swapped over the tire with the worn shoulder from the D/S to the P/S as "fleetimus" suggested. I still want to invest in a proper Caster/Camber gauge from Longacre so I can set the correct degrees on both but for now just like "70cst"...im drivin straight.

A puzzling foot note though. I decided while I had both the wheels off to place my levels on the hubs and check the Camber from there I set both wheels as near as damit to 0 Degrees Camber this took an even amount of Shims on both wheels...about 1/2"



And the levels looked like this.....
D/S from the Hub.

P/S from the Hub.


Here's the thing, once the wheels where back on I rechecked with the levels from the wheel rims and the D/S was spot on....the bubble remained in the same position as it was when measured from the hub.
But with the P/S wheel back on it showed the same massive amount of positive Camber as before...
P/S from the rim.

[LONGHAIR]

When you measured from the hub what was holding the weight of the truck?
If the control arms are allowed to "droop" the camber will change. That is the point of measuring with the weight on the wheels.

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by LONGHAIR

When you measured from the hub what was holding the weight of the truck?
If the control arms are allowed to "droop" the camber will change. That is the point of measuring with the weight on the wheels.

I had already checked with the wheels on the floor LH but I just wanted to see how things would differ when it was in the air and the levels were placed against the Hubs, and to be honest the reading on the level was exactly the same D/S and that's what's puzzling me. In the air or on the floor the D/S wheel is the same once Shims are added to zero Caster, but P/S wheel would need 1" thickness in Shims to each stud to achieve zero Camber, but I would have no stud left to fit the Nut on the end...something's not right.

[GruntMoanCough]

Originally Posted by eightbanger

...... i've got no pull to the left at all now, I also swapped over the tire with the worn shoulder from the D/S to the P/S....

I'm wondering if this is part of why your driving straight now. You should have a pair of good, or at least evenly worn, tires on the front. Also, maybe this is why you've got funky camber readings.

The only other thing that I can think of is that the frame is moving inward when you put the weight on, (Maybe loose rivets at the crossmember ?) or loose wheel bearings.

[eightbanger]

Originally Posted by GruntMoanCough

I'm wondering if this is part of why your driving straight now. You should have a pair of good, or at least evenly worn, tires on the front. Also, maybe this is why you've got funky camber readings.

The only other thing that I can think of is that the frame is moving inward when you put the weight on, (Maybe loose rivets at the crossmember ?) or loose wheel bearings.

I will check on those Ron, I sort of wished I had not been lazy and taken it for a drive after switching the wheels to see if the greatest correction was from that.

[swissarmychainsaw]

Nigel, did you get this resolved?

I know, old thread, but still useful!

[Fitz]

Originally Posted by eightbanger

Thanks GMC, I will do that, I couldn't work out how I was going to get a reference point for the vertical to check Caster.

Nigel:

These drawings from the 67 C10 repair manual may help. With them you can turn caster and camber into an inch measurement and get that set correctly.

Fitz