Turbo Build Options

[izzy_Britton]

I have debated for a few months now what direction i really want to go. The debate is to this point purely in my head, but now it is time to get a consensus from ye all.

This is not really a LS swap in the traditional way. I bought a 2006 2WD CCSB with a 5.3, and a bad 4l60e. I would like to turbo it just for fun. I had previously considered twin turbo with twin inter-coolers just because i wanted a challenge. but now that the time to start this build will be upon me in the next couple months i am thinking of keeping it a little more simple with a single turbo and single inter-cooler. This will be a (mostly) daily driven truck. I will be using it as a car since it will likely never haul or tow anything because i have a ugly work truck for those duties (2002 GMC 2500HD 4x4).

So the posed question is: IF this was YOUR truck which engine would you turbo? I have several in my shop to choose from.

4.8 from a 2003 chevy 1500 4x4 120k miles
5.3 from this 2006 GMC CCSB 120k miles
5.3 Aluminum block from a 2008? chevy 1500 (i think they called this a High Output) unkown miles but very few.
6.0 from a 2002 GMC 2500HD 4x4 160k miles

OR

6.2 from a 2008 escalade unknown mileage
6.2 from a 2010 Camaro unknown mileage

I will be using only the long block of one of these engines as not all are complete (ie intake/injectors) but all should bolt right in if my thinking is correct.

I wan to have some fun driving this truck. I do not intend to just beat on the truck and pound it into the ground, i want a truck i can get stupid in ONCE in a while. At last count i have 12 vehicles, so even though i want this build to be dependable i am not in dire straights if i breaks, at the same time i dont want to build a money pit simply for the purpose of wasting money.

OR would you go a totally different route. I dont want to waste a bunch of $$ buying some big expensive race engine. I have these engines in the shop NOW and would like to do a budget turbo build.

Opinions anyone?

-Izzy

[BR3W CITY]

Then GenIV harness and electronic gear costs a little bit more if your piecing anything together from a non-complete setup. I'm not a fan of "unknown" mileage motors unless your not afraid to take the block bare and do every bearing and seal on it.

IMO, the Iron 5.3 or 6.0, a flipped manifold single snail (75 conservative, up to a 92mm if you just dgaf )

[Heavymetl]

5.3 Aluminum block from a 2008? chevy 1500 (i think they called this a High Output) unkown miles but very few.

Use this one. The L33 is a bad boy! Do a little research on L33 turbo builds and you'll be blown away.

I know I've said it before, but the engine itself should be WAY down the list of crucial turbo build items.

1) Engine management (Holley, MS3Pro, etc)
2) Fuel System. You'll need to feed the beast.
3) Trans/Torque converter. It's gotta be tough and the converter has a huge effect on performance.
4) Turbo. The tech has really changed the landscape the last 2 years, stuff like On3 is making cheap turbos capable of big power.


I've put over 10,000 miles on my turbo (156,000 mile $500 junkyard!) 5.3, and it's been a blast. I used 2" hotside pipes and the PT7675 spools quick. I realize we all want to promote the parts we bought and are happy with, but I gotta say I love the Holley EFI. I would have already blown up the junkyard engine if I didn't have it. Line popped off the fuel pressure regulator and the Holley closed loop kept the AFR's safe under boost. With a stock ECU it would have been toast!

Speaking of torque converter issues, I've been 11.44@117 on 9psi. I cranked it up to 15psi, and only went 11.16. MAJOR slippage, almost 40% according to the data logs, trans temp was 220 at the end of the pass. So even though I bought a good PTC, it's going back for a little tweaking.

[davepl]

I don't know much about Turbo motors, but I'd spend the money everywhere BUT the motor until you had a properly configured and tuned turbo setup. THEN build a killer motor and turn up the wind. But get it to run on a 4.8 or 5.3 that you call your "disposable test assembly".

And if it does live first time out, a turbo 4.8 is probably all you need in these trucks anyway, but a 5.3 would be a good one too.

[Heavymetl]

Originally Posted by davepl

I don't know much about Turbo motors, but I'd spend the money everywhere BUT the motor until you had a properly configured and tuned turbo setup. THEN build a killer motor and turn up the wind. But get it to run on a 4.8 or 5.3 that you call your "disposable test assembly".

And if it does live first time out, a turbo 4.8 is probably all you need in these trucks anyway, but a 5.3 would be a good one too.

That's the beauty of the LS family. You don't need to build an engine to make bonkers power. In stock form, GEN IV internals laugh at 800 flywheel HP.

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by Heavymetl;

7809476 In stock form, GEN IV internals laugh at 800 flywheel HP.

Thats jumping the shark just a bit. They are great internals, but they only survive that kind of power on boosted cars...and usually with one hell of a tune and a pile of methanol. Its still not a forged assembly, and you can still kill a GenIV piston by breaking the ring lands. They STILL have ring gap issues if they have never been opened up. They still can crack from preignition, and you can still bend a rod, lift a head, push water, and most the other stuff all the LS motors do...just at slightly different power levels.

If you wanna run a dirty junkyard motor with a turbo slapped on it; then pick the highest mileage one you find that still makes good compression. The high mile motors have already worn down the oil ring enough to allow for clearance when the boost hits so it doesn't close the gap and shatter.

[Heavymetl]

Originally Posted by BR3W CITY

Thats jumping the shark just a bit. They are great internals, but they only survive that kind of power on boosted cars...and usually with one hell of a tune and a pile of methanol. Its still not a forged assembly, and you can still kill a GenIV piston by breaking the ring lands. They STILL have ring gap issues if they have never been opened up. They still can crack from preignition, and you can still bend a rod, lift a head, push water, and most the other stuff all the LS motors do...just at slightly different power levels.

If you wanna run a dirty junkyard motor with a turbo slapped on it; then pick the highest mileage one you find that still makes good compression. The high mile motors have already worn down the oil ring enough to allow for clearance when the boost hits so it doesn't close the gap and shatter.

So what constitutes "one hell of a tune?" Part of the beauty of aftermarket EFI is the closed loop fueling under WOT and the ability to integrate safety measures to keep the ol' junkyard mill alive. Pushing water? Install pressure sensor in coolant system and initiate timing retard if exceedance detected. #7 cylinder worries? Add individual cylinder fuel and retard timing to keep it healthy. One thing I've learned hanging out at the track and dyno, is timing and pump gasoline kills engines, not boost. (under 20psi) E85 is a godsend, and running good race gas (although expensive!) helps a ton. If one desired to make big power on 93 octane only...well, you're outta luck. It'll definitely need a ton of meth.

And there's no way a junkyard engine could make that power without boost and stay alive. Boost is nice and easy on parts, from rod bolts at RPM (boost keeping that stretch down!) to relatively lazy 60' times giving the driveline an easy time. I've been to a few Drag Week events, and seeing guys running 8's on junkyard 5.3 internals still melts my brain. To quote the younger generation, "I can't even."

[izzy_Britton]

Where to start with replying to some of these... start here i guess:

I am considerably new to the LS stuff, but even newer to the thoughts of turbo stuff. so this discussion doesnt make complete sense to me.... YET please bare with me.

Originally Posted by BR3W CITY

Then GenIV harness and electronic gear costs a little bit more if your piecing anything together from a non-complete setup.

IMO, the Iron 5.3 or 6.0, a flipped manifold single snail (75 conservative, up to a 92mm if you just dgaf )

I have several long block engines. i was thinking that i could just use the long block in the truck and use all the oem truck parts?

I was looking at 74 or 76 mm screw(s) did i mention i was considering twins? probably way overkill i know but... well you know.

Originally Posted by davepl

I don't know much about Turbo motors, but I'd spend the money everywhere BUT the motor until you had a properly configured and tuned turbo setup. THEN build a killer motor and turn up the wind. But get it to run on a 4.8 or 5.3 that you call your "disposable test assembly".

And if it does live first time out, a turbo 4.8 is probably all you need in these trucks anyway, but a 5.3 would be a good one too.

This is a brilliant idea! there is already a nice 5.3 under the hood, so i MAY use it.

BR3W CITY: This is a question on another thread, and your response.

Originally Posted by BR3W CITY

Should I go with an aftermarket controller like microsquirt?

No reason on this config. An HPT tune running the SD+CustomOS will let you run 1-2-3bar all day.

With this this being said, in your opinion is it safe to assume that i could get away with using all the factory components under the hood and just do/get an awesome tune?

Originally Posted by BR3W CITY

snip... I'm not a fan of "unknown" mileage motors unless your not afraid to take the block bare and do every bearing and seal on it.

If you wanna run a dirty junkyard motor with a turbo slapped on it; then pick the highest mileage one you find that still makes good compression. The high mile motors have already worn down the oil ring enough to allow for clearance when the boost hits so it doesn't close the gap and shatter. /snip

As Davepl pointed out I COULD use the factory 5.3 that is already installed in the truck and once it is a proven thing, i could slap in one of the other options i have at my disposal. by doing so i could tear the engine down and do exactly as you mentioned and build it from the block up with boost in mind.

Sounds like i have a few things to consider.

-Izzy

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by Heavymetl

So what constitutes "one hell of a tune?"

The 800crank HP plateau is the point when your literally sitting at the failure point of most components, and depending on the setup, there could be a huge difference in where that failure point is. A professional tuner will always have the ability to do the one thing a computer can't, and thats ignore logic. I have nothing against the aftermarket "auto tuning", but it will always have areas that need to be tweaked/modded/changed by a pro tuner...basically what you could call trade secrets.

Pushing water? Install pressure sensor in coolant system and initiate timing retard if exceedance detected.
#7 cylinder worries? Add individual cylinder fuel and retard timing to keep it healthy.

We were talking about choosing the block to build, and tuning aside, the GEN IV still has the same issues that the III did in these facets. Instead of installing safeties for everything, I'd rather work to correct the cause.

One thing I've learned hanging out at the track and dyno, is timing and pump gasoline kills engines, not boost. (under 20psi) E85 is a godsend, and running good race gas (although expensive!) helps a ton. If one desired to make big power on 93 octane only...well, you're outta luck. It'll definitely need a ton of meth.

93 and meth have allowed us well into the 4-digit power range on a frequent basis now. We have largely stopped running straight e85 tunes, and either started just doing meth-focused fueling, or run the FF sensor and run targeted blends. Race gas is great, but IMO I find myself applying it more in nitrous/na/blown setups more.

And there's no way a junkyard engine could make that power without boost and stay alive.

Thats where I agree. While I still don't agree that the internals are as strong as we all wish they were...they are pretty damn close. We have a stock block LS1 which survives north of 750 on spray, and has for a while, but in all honesty I don't think I could tell someone else to do a setup the same way and have it live.

The fact that the "Average" joe can slap together a car with more than 550hp and not be stressing the motor much is what makes these things good. The fact that a pro can make them put out quad digit cars using hundreds of different setups and your choice of power adder is what really makes them GREAT. We see #'s today that pro street guys would have drooled over 15 years ago.

~~~

[izzy_Britton]

I have added 2 more 6.0's to my shop floor this week.

2002 gmc 2500 HD 191k
2006 suburban 181k

I am thinking at this point that the 191k engine will be the guinea pig for this build. it is a complete and known good running engine with a bad rear main seal plate? the guy popped a rebuild engine in the hole because he heard that the rear main seals leak because the rear plate is known bad and that they fixed them on the new engines? leaves one to wonder if this is a true thing and if so why not just pop a new rear seal plate on it and be done? he also installed a new 4L80e and a t-case just for fun, because apparently he has more money than sense.

and i will give a oem ecm with a custom tune a whirl to see what i can come up with.

just need to find a good trans, something stronger than a 4L60e. looking for a 6L90e if i can find one that will go in the hole as well.

-Izzy

[Mr.Chevy4x4]

I wish 6.0's were that easy to come by around here. People think they are gold.

I've never heard the thing about the seal plate being bad, but the seals do go bad after time and miles. Wife's suburban needs a seal now and I just can't work up the gumption to tackle it.

Mike

[71cadc10]

with all your options....hmm I would vote for a 6.0L from HD

compression ratio is better for the turbo
displacement is better than the 5.3, so less boost needed to make good powah.

Better yet, pull a set of the rectangle port heads /intake from one of them (Camaro or escalade), and put them on the 6.0 iron short block from the HD.

[davepl]

Here's what I'm working on, though it's not actually for any vehicle yet, just seeing what I can assemble from spare parts and a few eBay trips!

[BR3W CITY]

Lookin good man.

[Kainedogg]

Hey Izzy I like the idea of using what is already there but switch out the 4l60e to a 4l80e. They have turbo kits specific to your truck on Ls1tech as well; On3 I think.

[izzy_Britton]

Originally Posted by Kainedogg

Hey Izzy I like the idea of using what is already there but switch out the 4l60e to a 4l80e. They have turbo kits specific to your truck on Ls1tech as well; On3 I think.

i actually picked up a rebuildable core 4L80e today as a matter of fact. $70. it will start coming together here in the coming months. i 'sold' the 2010 camaro engine this past weekend. just waiting on the guy to come thru with some cash then i can start ordering parts.

-Izzy

[Kainedogg]

Sweet. If you aren't opposed to changing out the ecm and wiring for the 58x Gen IV motor, that would be the grand finale for me. You have almost 1 itre more displacement, meaning a more powerful motor out of boost. I scavenged an L92 out of a Denali for my Skylark project and despite having 5.3's laying around, I can't pass on more displacement.

[izzy_Britton]

Originally Posted by 71cadc10

... Better yet, pull a set of the rectangle port heads /intake from one of them (Camaro or escalade), and put them on the 6.0 iron short block from the HD.

I did consider this, but i was informed by a local guy that because of the bore difference between the 6.0 and the 6.2 the heads wont work? there might be some valve interference?

i also considered de-stroking the 6.2 using the 4.8 crank and going that route. but i think i am gonna stick with the higher mileage 6.0. i may run it as is with a low boost, or i might tear it down and re-gap the rings, that would be a small price (effort) to pay for a bigger smile.

[izzy_Britton]

Originally Posted by Kainedogg

Sweet. If you aren't opposed to changing out the ecm and wiring for the 58x Gen IV motor, that would be the grand finale for me. You have almost 1 itre more displacement, meaning a more powerful motor out of boost.

yeah considered this too but with a twist.

what i was thinking was that if i ran the 6.2 i would tear it down and figure out if i could use the 24x reluctor wheel in place of the 58x. I would imagine there is a way to to do this fairly simply because i think the 2007/8 L92 uses the same crank and so the parts should be interchangeable.

this SHOULD then allow me to use the stock ecm and wire harness from the 2006 truck without changing anything else.

but i really dont know. again, just thinking out loud.

-Izzy