55.2-59 please explain power steering components

[Missyblue]

I bought a 1979 gm van column and it has a long cylindrical shaft with a rag joint end at the bottom. can't find my photo will post one later sorry.....but tying to understand how all this fits together and have only found a few photos online. I have a mustang ii front end with a power rack. my column has a long skinny shaft at the bottom connected to a rag joint so it doesn't look like the columns I see if I purchased a flaming river one. I have read about splined shafts and double dd ends but don't exactly understand the whole process of getting from point a to point b. any photos or insight would be appreciated.

[Missyblue]

This is my power rack

[joedoh]

you will unbolt the rag joint and there will be a DD end under it.

then its a matter of getting the right size DD u joint, should be 1" at the bottom of the column shaft, the u joint will be one size on the one side and either the same size or a different type on other side. I recommend a 1" DD to 3/4" DD u joint for right off the column.

then you will need a piece of 3/4" DD shaft.

then at the steering rack you will need a 3/4" DD ujoint with the other side splined to match your rack.

prepare for some sticker shock, u joints arent cheap, and being cheap on steering (or brakes) is a stupid way to die anyway.

if thats all you need then great, but my advice is to get the motor and especially the exhaust manifolds on. I just did steering on a 53 for a guy and it took a double u joint, a regular u joint, two heims, two chunks of 3/4" DD and another u joint at the rack to snake around the exhaust. it was over $400 in parts.

[Missyblue]

Originally Posted by joedoh

you will unbolt the rag joint and there will be a DD end under it.

then its a matter of getting the right size DD u joint, should be 1" at the bottom of the column shaft, the u joint will be one size on the one side and either the same size or a different type on other side. I recommend a 1" DD to 3/4" DD u joint for right off the column.

then you will need a piece of 3/4" DD shaft.

then at the steering rack you will need a 3/4" DD ujoint with the other side splined to match your rack.

prepare for some sticker shock, u joints arent cheap, and being cheap on steering (or brakes) is a stupid way to die anyway.

if thats all you need then great, but my advice is to get the motor and especially the exhaust manifolds on. I just did steering on a 53 for a guy and it took a double u joint, a regular u joint, two heims, two chunks of 3/4" DD and another u joint at the rack to snake around the exhaust. it was over $400 in parts.

Ok thank you. I'm hoping my column isnt too long. With the length of the extension to the rag its 38 inches but we will see. (Wonder if it can be shortened &#129300 I am planning to set my engine 1st and we left the donor exhaust manifold and pipe so hopefully that will give me an idea. Just planning ahead for next steps haha. But thanks for the heads up

[Missyblue]

Oh and is it weird to think you could add a collapsible dd shaft?

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Missyblue

Oh and is it weird to think you could add a collapsible dd shaft?

you could but shouldnt need one. a collapsible shaft is usually for when the steering shaft points in a roughly straight line right up the column, its so if you have a front end collision the shaft doesnt turn into a spear right into the drivers chest.

its generally accepted that if you put a column saver bearing on an original 40s-50s column that it could spear you in a crash.

more modern columns have a collapsible section built into the column (internal crush), as well as spot welded mounting points that will break off when in a collision.

additionally, your shaft will take a sharp down turn when it dives to the rack, so most of the collision force will push on the side, not straight up the shaft.

I use columns that have a collapsible section of the shaft from the factory, so I frequently use a collapsible shaft (not always, the modern columns have the protections I mention) your column has a rag joint at the end, so it SHOULD (you should research this and not take my word) have an internal collapsing section.

[mr48chev]

To use a collapsible shaft, you also have to have a collapsible column.

I'm thinking that the 79 Van column was collapsible though somewhere between 70 and 71 GM switched to collapsible columns on the C series trucks. I may be wrong but if it has one solid tube all the way down it is not collapsible if it looks like it has one tube inside the other that cold slip if forced it is collapsible.


The Rag joint is like this one and you will have to get the correct U joint that has the teeth in it to slip on the end of the shaft.

You need to know the diameter and spline count of the shaft and then get a U joint that goes from that spline count to DD for the shaft to go on.

https://www.1aauto.com/steering-shaf...9/1206549/1979

The cool factor is it doesn't have that ugly key switch on the column.

[dsraven]

I'm with joedoh, set the engine in and get it where it needs to be, mindful of the fact that you will need to run a column and steering shaft as well, and then work on the column. remember that the suspension will move so leave room for that. remember that the exhaust is going to get really hot and u joints generally don't like to be cooked so keep some distance there. the u joints will need to be phased (google that but it basically means they need to lined up a certain way) and also are made to be used within certain angle parameters, too much angle will cause the shaft to speed up and slow down as it turns a single rotation. that is one reason why we try to match angles on the ends of the shaft, one end compensates for the other end and the output ends up turning the same speed throughout the whole single revolution as the input. you may need a center support bearing, if you need more than a single connecting shaft or have a steep angle, long lengths etc. it is kind of important to do your best to match the angles at each end of the shaft.

these should get you started in the right direction so you understand how a u joint works and the do and don't of assembly when the time comes..

explanation of angles and how they affect shaft speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmV4qwLfOMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M1aR41SVf4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMSM3QDXf64

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKoSEQVEarc

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

I'm thinking that the 79 Van column was collapsible though somewhere between 70 and 71 GM switched to collapsible columns on the C series trucks. I may be wrong but if it has one solid tube all the way down it is not collapsible if it looks like it has one tube inside the other that cold slip if forced it is collapsible.

nice info! that blue one in her OP is definitely collapsible, tube inside tube.

Originally Posted by mr48chev

The Rag joint is like this one and you will have to get the correct U joint that has the teeth in it to slip on the end of the shaft.

You need to know the diameter and spline count of the shaft and then get a U joint that goes from that spline count to DD for the shaft to go on.

just a note, the splines on the rag joint are on the (van) steering box. the bottom of the column where the rag joint attaches will be a DD, usually 1" on the column. she will need to know the spine count for her MII rack, thats the bottom u joint I talked about. be careful because I know (from a $79 experience now) that they are very different between non power and power steering.

[dsraven]

if you haven't got the engine mounts yet sometimes it is better to have the engine mocked up but sitting on blocks instead of welded in mounts. secured at height and centered. sometimes even some tie wire on each side from the engine to the frame will keep it in the middle if it is sitting on secure blocking. that way you have the option to raise or lower the engine/trans if needed for clearance or a better run for the steering column shaft. I use a few pieces of broom handle for mocking up the steering shaft. it's cheap and easily cut to length. if you have some u joints, and some broom handle that fits inside the joints like shafting, it makes it easier to get the mock up done and also the shafting cut to the proper length once you are satisfied with the mock up. on my 57 frame I used a couple of vertical sections of flat bar welded to the frame and then the engine mount parts that connect the dots from there to the engine were simply flat sheet cut to fit the steering shaft through the area. the engine brackets were easily unbolted from the frame and the engine so the whole area was wide open to slip the engine in/out easier. the pics show an LS engine with camaro mounts but the sbc could be done the same if you wanted.
here is a pic of what I meant. the white tube is just a piece of tubing I had laying around to shop where the steering shaft would run. the engine plates are not completed as I planned to reinforce them by connecting the plates together on each side (bolted to make life easier).

[dsraven]

sorry, pic didn't attach. here you go.

[dsraven]

here is the other pic that didn't seem to wanna load. I know, no ujoints in the pic. I did have it slipped over the rack input though. I used a larger diameter piece of tubing just to be sure I would have clearance on everything. the frame plates for the engine both bolt onto the front face of the frame mounts so, if wanted, they could be left on the engine and the whole thing brought forward, up and out as an assembly.
as a side bar, the rack could be rotated slightly with a wedge shaped mount in order to line up the steering shaft better or match ujoint angles. just be sure to keep the tie rods lined up in the same plane as they were so the steering geometry doesn't change. in other words, rotate the rack around the tie rod positioning instead of just rotating it haphazardly.
just some stuff to think about anyway. more than one way to get'er done.

[dsraven]

another pic. this one shows the pass side bolt on engine mount idea that keeps the frame tidy with the engine out, the home made "jack stand/threaded rod through a frame hole" idea for frame levelling, the "threaded rod through the shock mount to keep ride height constant" idea and also the extra gusset for the Mii lower control arm pivot bolt.
hope that helps you or somebody looking for ideas.

[mr48chev]

Smooth routing with minimal angles on the U joints is a must. I haven't seen it as much on AD trucks as on some rigs but I have seen some steering setups that have bind spots built in simply because the person assembling it didn't have much of a grasp on keeping the angles to a minimum and maybe adding a Ujoint and support bearing to smooth it out.

[Missyblue]

Originally Posted by dsraven

if you haven't got the engine mounts yet sometimes it is better to have the engine mocked up but sitting on blocks instead of welded in mounts. secured at height and centered. sometimes even some tie wire on each side from the engine to the frame will keep it in the middle if it is sitting on secure blocking. that way you have the option to raise or lower the engine/trans if needed for clearance or a better run for the steering column shaft. I use a few pieces of broom handle for mocking up the steering shaft. it's cheap and easily cut to length. if you have some u joints, and some broom handle that fits inside the joints like shafting, it makes it easier to get the mock up done and also the shafting cut to the proper length once you are satisfied with the mock up. on my 57 frame I used a couple of vertical sections of flat bar welded to the frame and then the engine mount parts that connect the dots from there to the engine were simply flat sheet cut to fit the steering shaft through the area. the engine brackets were easily unbolted from the frame and the engine so the whole area was wide open to slip the engine in/out easier. the pics show an LS engine with camaro mounts but the sbc could be done the same if you wanted.
here is a pic of what I meant. the white tube is just a piece of tubing I had laying around to shop where the steering shaft would run. the engine plates are not completed as I planned to reinforce them by connecting the plates together on each side (bolted to make life easier).

Thank you for the photos and suggestions. Picking up engine mounts today and will move forward. Here is my column. So appears to be collapsible yay and I was measuring wrong I think. The column is like 33.5 and the dd end add's the extra length so hopefully wont have to be shortened like I thought.

[dsraven]

The rag joint was to absorb vibrations.
If you need to shorten the column you can make your own DD end on the shaft using a file or grinder. Can likely find a template online as some suppliers see the kit with their joint. Would verify your shaft size first and ensure you can source a joint.

[joedoh]

i was wrong, that does appear to be splined at the end of the column shaft!

[dsraven]

Yeah, I noticed that too Joseph. Even easier to mock up if a joint to match is available and if the column length works.

[Missyblue]

Picked up my engine mounts today and my rod shop guy recommended cutting the rag joint off and then he kinda lost me.....I think he said adding a u joint and then routing from there? Or something about pinning maybe this?? https://www.borgeson.com/xcart/home.php?cat=24&page=1

He said he usually uses 2 u joints but occasionally has to use 3. ....Or dsraven you suggested making my own dd end with a file trying to understand what you mean?

Pros and cons to keeping the rag joint? Seems it's for vibrations. Not sure I'm worried about it but dont know till you try I guess haha

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by Missyblue

Picked up my engine mounts today and my rod shop guy recommended cutting the rag joint off and then he kinda lost me.....I think he said adding a u joint and then routing from there? Or something about pinning maybe this?? https://www.borgeson.com/xcart/home.php?cat=24&page=1

He said he usually uses 2 u joints but occasionally has to use 3. ....Or dsraven you suggested making my own dd end with a file trying to understand what you mean?

just count the splines on the column end and measure diameter and get a u joint. that coupler he told you about and you linked would just add cost and length, and at the other side of it you will still need a u joint. borgeson will make any combo, spline one side to whatever you want on the other.

he is telling you the same things we did, get your exhaust on and see where you are at. you might need two u joints (very unlikely) and you might need 3 and a heim (very likely) depending on how sharp it needs to bend, you may need a double and two u joints and two heims.

Originally Posted by Missyblue

Pros and cons to keeping the rag joint? Seems it's for vibrations. Not sure I'm worried about it but dont know till you try I guess haha

the biggest con about keeping the rag joint is, that you cant use one with this setup. rag joints are not made for angles, they are made for when the steering column points DIRECTLY at the splines of the box, no angles WRT (with respect to) XYZ of the shaft. the rag reduces vibration but cant take more than a very very very small amount of misalingment (you are putting a body mounted column in line with a frame mounted box after all). if you try putting one after a ujoint (or before) it will just let the joint and shaft wiggle all over

[dsraven]

Yup, like jordon just said. Lose the rag joint.
Try not to get ahead of yourself and start what iff-ing. Get the engine between the frame rails. Mocked up but not totally locked down. Dont get all excited about your steering shaft yet until that's done. When the engine is place, sort of, and some exhaust manifolds are in place then see what you have for room. You can move the engine up or down or forward as needed still. That's why it's called mock up.

[Missyblue]

Thank you and yes I'm sorry I am not trying to get ahead of myself but rather trying to understand the next step and the possible parts and money needed. Plus my truck is my happy place so I Iike learning about stuff. I couldn't find many photos of steering installed so was trying to understand and picture how it all works. I do have to admit I am excited.for steering since my truck gets drug in and out of my dad's shop and around a corner so steering will make our lives much easier. Plus I cant remember if it was mr48chevy or ogre but how am i supposed to take my sunday drive um tractor pull without steering haha ��

I think I understand where I am headed so thank you. I might have more once I get to the really doing it phase. But last few questions.....any photos of steering installed?
Is this the heim part you meant? Photo attached....https://pitstopusa.com/c-133242-stee...t-rod-end.html
And what do you do for the floor for a mount? I see everything from an more basic plate like similar to original to clamps to ones with fancy moving internals......just curious of thoughts.

Thanks again. Couldnt do this as easily or happily without everyone's help. See my other attached photo �� need someone to make me one. So glad I have this forum!!
My dad has a good understanding of vehicles but not everything pertained to some of these modifications we are doing and we have a mechanic friend helping but I like to not be totally illiterate to what's happening and I take pride in doing as much as I can along the way. This truck has my blood,.sweat and tears in it haha

[dsraven]

Yup, that's the support bearing most use.
Sorry Joedoh, spellcheck got me again.
Missy, check out the video links in one of my posts, they show and explain some of your questions on how it looks. Sometimes pics of stuff done by guys can take you down the wrong rabbit trail so take them with a grain of salt and some study on parameters of how u joints work etc. You got this, dont fret.

[Missyblue]

Originally Posted by dsraven

Yup, that's the support bearing most use.
Sorry Joedoh, spellcheck got me again.
Missy, check out the video links in one of my posts, they show and explain some of your questions on how it looks. Sometimes pics of stuff done by guys can take you down the wrong rabbit trail so take them with a grain of salt and some study on parameters of how u joints work etc. You got this, dont fret.

Thank you! The 1st video I feel like you sent me to engineering school haha. Very helpful thanks!

[dsraven]

yeah I know, school from the seventies with that narrator guy. haha. anyway, it's good to understand how it works before you spend money and time.
you will need to remove the rag joint from the column shaft, clean the shaft, measure the shaft where the splines are, count the splines and then look for a u joint to fit that shaft size and spline count with a DD shaft connection on the other side of the u joint. that is assuming you will use a DD shaft to connect your parts. from there you will need to find the same info for your steering rack input, shaft size and spline count, and get a u joint to fit that with the same DD fitting on the other side of that joint as the DD shafting you will use. some of the problem with the rebuilt racks is that they could be mustang II or thunderbird and the splines may change over the different years. always good to confirm. as well, I think they were different from power steering to manual steering so that throws another confusing issue in. that's why it's best to do a hands on count before you get knee deep in gators.
then attach the u joints to the column and to the steering rack, once the column is mounted of course, and then try connecting the dots with a piece of broom handle or something similar. if it is obvious that there is no way it will connect, like something is in the way for a straight shot, then install a shorter broom handle into each u joint and bring the parts together. ensure to bring the parts together in such a way as to leave room for a support bearing on the upper end of the connecting shaft if required. this is where having the engine merely mocked up can help you out because you can jack the engine up or down as required to make space for the shaft to clear. you will need to do some angle finding to try and get the angles of the shafts to match so the u joints have the best chance of not binding. try to get it done with a single shaft or just 2 shafts if possible. otherwise it becomes a nightmare of trying to match angles and support the intermediate shaft so it doesn't wiggle around and cause binding.
I don't personally recommend a rag joint unless the shaft is a straight shot (angles match) from the column to the next shaft in line. they are only made for a directly straight on connection or very minor angle difference.
it would be best to match the angle of the column shaft with the angle of the steering rack input shaft, those angles will cancel each other out that way. you can accomplish that by rotating the rack with a wedged style mounting bracket shim until you get it right, then either tack weld the shims in place or rework the mount to match the new angle. just ensure that the tie rods stay true to their original plane, inline with the steering knuckle connections, or the geometry will be out of whack causing steering issues.