Hard starting when cold

[jandj_davis]

I recieved an 85 C10 as a hand-me-down from my grandfather. It runs well (as far as I know) and has so far gotten a new battery, alternator, fuel filter, and air filter. It has a E4ME carb on a 305 V8. The biggest issue I have with it right now is that after it sits for several hours (overnight, or all day at work) it takes a lot of cranks to get it started, and I am worried that I am going to wear out my starter. It starts fine (,2 seconds of carnking) when warm. I am moderately mechanically inclined, and do almost all of my own work on my motorcycles and this truck. I have a service manual (Chiltons), and under hard starting it says to check these things:

1) Binding linkage, choke valve or choke piston
2) Restricted choke vacuum diaphragm
3) Improper Fuel Level
4) Dirty, worn, or faulty needle valve and seat
5) Float sticking
6) Faulty fuel pump
7) Incorrect choke cover adjustment
8) Inadequate choke unloader adjustment
9) Faulty ignition coil
10) Improper spark plug gap
11) Incorrect ignition timing
12) Incorrect valve timing

I plan on replacing the spark plugs and wires very soon, and will gap them properly, but the truck runs and idles fine (idle may hunt a bit) so I don't think plugs are the main cause. Since I am new to 4-wheel maintenance, I have a few questions about the items listed above. (Note: I gave them numbers so they are easier to reference. They in no way represent priority.)
1, 2, 7, 8: I don't even know what these mean. Can anyone explain? It has an electrically controlled choke, so do they even apply?
3, 4, 5: Does the carb have to be removed/dissassembled for this to be addressed?
12: Does this require valve cover removal, or engine removal?

Finally, if any of you can recommend a plan of attack for me, I would appreciate it. Like I said, I will be replacing the spark plugs/wires very soon, but if that doesn't fix it, do I look at timing? fuel pump? choke stuff? if you could renumber the above list with a priority rating, which would come first? Thanks all!

[Rc 415]

Wow I always figured it was the nature of carb'ed vehicles that when cold it needs to turn over a few times before it fires up, gunna hafta look into my trucks carb now...

[jermasaurus]

Hi I'll attempt to clear a few things up.

As far as 1,2,7,8 Number 8 They call a choke unloader, is refered to as a choke pull off. It is a diaphram, on the passenger side of the carb I believe, that cracks the choke open about 1/8 inch when it gets vacuum.

4 and 5 Yes the carb has to be partially dissassembled. Might as well remove it to avoid dropping small screws down the carb.

I had very similar issues when I first got my truck and had no knowledge of these quadrajets. I ended up putting a basic holley carb on the truck and had no dissapointments. One pump in the dead of winter and it fires right up.
I also rebuilt my quadrajet, reinstalled it, and it works excellent. I don't exactly know what was wrong I just replaced the gaskets, needle, seat, float..... everything in the kit.

My carb is the non-feedback model and the truck has no check engine light. You mentioned you have am E4ME- I think thats what mine is.

Hopefully something here will help you out. Good luck

-Jeremy

[Poopski]

My truck always requires 2 pumps before it wants to start, just something I figured was normal on these trucks and carbureted engines in general. If it doesn't seem like there is enough juice getting to the starter from the battery, check the positive battery cable and see if it needs tightened down on the starter and if it is in good condition. Honestly I think you will always have to pump the gas atleast once to get it started. I'm not very helpful.

[Mickey_D]

I noticed in your post you mentioned you were new to 4 wheeled vehicles (I'm assuming this means you've ridden motorcycles exclusively until now). Not sure if you're aware, but your truck needs to have the accelerator pushed all the way to the floor at least twice when starting it cold.

This accomplishes two tasks simultaneously :
1. Primes the carb with two shots of gas from the accelerator pump.
2. Allows the choke to set into the cold position.

On my old '81, there are times when it's really cold outside I'll have to stab the gas pedal at least 5 times to prime it enough to get it going. And that's with the electric fuel pump having run for 5-10 seconds first. My carb (and the original one did too) allows all the gas to drain back to the tank after it sits for a while. So without the electric fuel pump, it would take FOREVER to suck gas all the way from the tank and refill the carb bowl.

[jandj_davis]

I always thought that the only reason you push the pedal in an old vehicle was to set the choke. Since mine has an electric choke, I thought that it wasn't necessary. Maybe I don't understand how the electric choke works. If it is necessary to put it to the floor a few times before starting, I'll give that a try tomorrow morning and see how it works.

Mickey_D - I am not new to driving 4-wheeled vehicles, just to working on them. I have been working on bikes for 8 years, from brake bleeding to carb rebuilds. As I stated above, I was not aware that the "pedal to the floor" process was necessary. My dad always did it in his old Ford, but I figured that it was because he had a manual choke. I don;t think I have an electric fuel pump, but I may be wrong. Is there something I can do to prevent over-using the starter? Should I replace my old fuel pump with an electric one? I don't really want to get elbow-deep in the motor, but I also don't want to replace the starter and battery every year.

[77 350 Shorty Wide]

Hi and welcome to the board.

1.) Electric choke (simple explanation) has a small coil of wire inside a housing that expands and "uncoils" when electrical current is past through it.
This is connected mechanicaly to a butter fly valve in the air horn that will open up gradually as the spring warms up.

2.) Setting the choke is done by mechanical means. When you depress the accelarator pedal to the floor. The same spring will pull it shut because it has cooled and has coiled itself backup.
When starting cold, you should NOT stab the accelerator pedal, but rather depress it smoothly. This not only allows the choke to set itself it also primes the engine with raw fuel using one full stroke of the accelerator pump.

Ideally when the vehicle was "new" and not under extreme temperatures such as below 0, one full stroke would of been enough to start. Also when new the engine would usually start almost immediately after engaging the starter.
With many years and miles under it's belt and possible performance modifications later things tend to change. "As we all do when we get older, takes me a lot longer to get things done at 51 than it did when I was 25."

3. As stated earlier in another post, the "choke pulloff" is designed to give the choke a little breathing room once the engine starts making vacuum. The butterfly valve that was fully closed to aid in initial startup needs to be cracked open a little to let additional air in for the engine to keep running otherwise it will load up, flood itself and die.

4.) The entire choke system is really very simple and it will work great for many years once setup properly.

In your original post when you say "it takes a lot of cranks to get it started"
How long in seconds before firing are we talking about :01, :05, :10, :15? it's not unusual to see :03 to :05 seconds on a vehicle with some miles on it. I think you'll find most stock carburated v8's in good tune will need :01 to :02.

I know this doesn't answer all your questions, I was just trying to explain an electrical choke system.

Hope everything is going well and your making progress with your problem(s)

God Bless, Terry

[jandj_davis]

Originally Posted by 77 350 Shorty Wide

In your original post when you say "it takes a lot of cranks to get it started"
How long in seconds before firing are we talking about :01, :05, :10, :15? it's not unusual to see :03 to :05 seconds on a vehicle with some miles on it. I think you'll find most stock carburated v8's in good tune will need :01 to :02.

I know this doesn't answer all your questions, I was just trying to explain an electrical choke system.

God Bless, Terry

Terry - thanks for the choke explanations. I'll have to read them again when I am looking under the hood, but it looks like a good simple explanation.

I wish my truck would start firing after 5 seconds. It fires right up when it is warm ,with less than 2 seconds of cranking time. However, when it is cold, I usually have to crank it for upwards of 15-20 seconds. I learned from motorcycles to let the starter take a breather after 5-6 seconds, or it can overheat and burn up. Should I do that with the truck? It usually takes 3 key-turns to start the truck, sometimes 4, for a total of 15-20 seconds of cranking time. That is an estimate, because I haven't actually counted, but in my opinion it is excessive. I will try the "slow-press" of the pedal tomorrow morning and let you know how it goes. I hope it is that simple. Thanks again for the explanations and advise.

[77 350 Shorty Wide]

Well a long time ago when I was in automotive tech school. We were instructed to never go more than :10 seconds at any one time. I always did the Mississippi 1, Mississippi 2 thing, to not over due it. Then always gave it a 10 sec. rest.
I will say this though after about 3 tries I would usually start looking for the problem.

About tech school... that was back in 78-79 and I found out I didn't like working and getting greasy on other peoples cars so instead I went into parts counter work at dealerships for 6 years. In 84 I got out of cars altogether, I just recently jumped back in. Back in '99 I acquired a '69 Camaro. Sold it and now i'm here with my first love a 77 swb that I've been tinkering around with. Been having a lot of fun with it.

God Bless, Terry

should of been 76-77

[jandj_davis]

Originally Posted by 77 350 Shorty Wide

Well a long time ago when I was in automotive tech school. We were instructed to never go more than :10 seconds at any one time. I always did the Mississippi 1, Mississippi 2 thing, to not over due it. Then always gave it a 10 sec. rest.
I will say this though after about 3 tries I would usually start looking for the problem.

Yeah, After 2-3 cranks of that length I knew there was something wrong, but I didn't know what to look into. I'll try using the pedal to start it tomorrow morning, and we'll see if that helps.

[Mickey_D]

One thing to look at is to run the engine warm, shut it down, let it cool completely.

Take the air cleaner assembly off so you can see the choke vanes. Have an assistant get in and push the loud pedal down while you're watching the choke (without the ignition on). It should drop closed initially, pull open a bit as the throttle goes to full, then when the pedal is released, drop closed again. This won't be a "slight" movement. The choke will pivot almost 90 degrees from open to closed, so there's a definite "flop" action to watch for.




If the choke does not close by itself (like mine, in the pic I had to give it a tap to close), it will make the truck EXTREMELY hard to start when it's cold. If it doesn't close, or at least doesn't close a significant amount, then your choke linkage may be binding, stuck, bent, or broken. But at least you know what the problem is at that point. If it does close, there's something else wrong, but it's a starting point to eliminating the obvious.

[jandj_davis]

Originally Posted by Mickey_D

One thing to look at is to run the engine warm, shut it down, let it cool completely.

Take the air cleaner assembly off so you can see the choke vanes. Have an assistant get in and push the loud pedal down while you're watching the choke (without the ignition on). It should drop closed initially, pull open a bit as the throttle goes to full, then when the pedal is released, drop closed again. This won't be a "slight" movement. The choke will pivot almost 90 degrees from open to closed, so there's a definite "flop" action to watch for.

If the choke does not close by itself (like mine, in the pic I had to give it a tap to close), it will make the truck EXTREMELY hard to start when it's cold. If it doesn't close, or at least doesn't close a significant amount, then your choke linkage may be binding, stuck, bent, or broken. But at least you know what the problem is at that point. If it does close, there's something else wrong, but it's a starting point to eliminating the obvious.

Now that's the kind of "Idiot's Guide" explanation I enjoy reading. I can't afford to get dirty in the morning during the week, so I'll have to wait until this weekend, but I will let you know what happens.

[jandj_davis]

Originally Posted by Mickey_D

Not sure if you're aware, but your truck needs to have the accelerator pushed all the way to the floor at least twice when starting it cold.

This morning I pushed the pedal to the floor three times before turning the key. I counted to 10 for the first crank session with no firing. I let it sit for 10 seconds, then counted to 5 for the second cranking session before it fired up. Is that acceptable for an old, rarely used Chevy? I still haven't checked to see if the choke is operating correctly, but I can't imagine an old beast like this would idle very well when cold if the choke wasn't operating.

[Mickey_D]

Actually, once mine is running it idles and runs fine without the choke. It will stumble a bit if I try to give it too much before it's warmed up, but normal "sane" driving it works just fine.

[McSwine]

I have the same cold hard-starting issue with my Edelbrock-equipped '83, in addition to a very annoying stumble or hesitation right off idle.

[454HO]

Just a thought, but it may not be your choke at all. The Q-Jet carb is notorious for leaking fuel from the well plugs (there are 4 of them) of the main body. When (not if) this happens, the fuel bowl will go completely dry after a long sit. It then takes several turns of the crankshaft to pump enough fuel back into the carb's fuel bowl to start the engine.

If this is your problem, the carb will need to be torn down and the well plugs epoxied (JB Weld).

http://www.stratagaz.com/Quadrajet/Q...et_7029202.htm

[jandj_davis]

Originally Posted by McSwine

I have the same cold hard-starting issue with my Edelbrock-equipped '83, in addition to a very annoying stumble or hesitation right off idle.

Sometimes I have an off-idle stumble, which feels more like a bog than a stumble, but that is only if I goose it a little to fast, which usually just spins my tires anyway.

Originally Posted by 454HO

Just a thought, but it may not be your choke at all. The Q-Jet carb is notorious for leaking fuel from the well plugs (there are 4 of them) of the main body. When (not if) this happens, the fuel bowl will go completely dry after a long sit. It then takes several turns of the crankshaft to pump enough fuel back into the carb's fuel bowl to start the engine.

I would really like to completely tear down the carb and rebuild it, resetting float levels, clearing jets, etc. But, since it is my only mode of transportation at the moment (my bike is taking a garage nap after a small mishap) it will have to wait until my bike is good to go and the weather is nice.

[jandj_davis]

The last two days I have been "priming" the carb (SLOWLY pumping the pedal while the starter is cranking, usually 1 pump every 2 sec.), and the truck has started great. About 5-6 seconds of cranking. That seems reasonable to me. I'm glad it was a "technique" problem and not a mechanical problem. Technique problems don't cost anything to fix. Now I just have to figure out where the gassy smell is coming from. I just replaced the fuel filter, is it common for that joint to leak?

[Malo83]

get that fixed right away

[chevymotocross]

I've driven many older carb'd cars and trucks. I notice those with oem carb's tend to start and function properly whether warm or below freezing temps. I've used very worn-out plow trucks with oem carbs and they still started just as well in the cold as a fuel injected motor. Concerning after-market carbs, I've put holley 600's on some of the trucks I've had..... I know what I'm doing. The chokes function but the fast idle never seemed to work the way they should on a cold day. This means the engine would fire but you'd have to sit there with your foot on the pedal till it warmed up. That is with adjusting fast idle, they just don't like to function properly in cold cold weather. I drive an 87 now so I don't have to worry about any of that non-sense :-)