clip question

[JELLY]

I bought my truck with a ifs front clip already installed which saves me work. The problem is i was told it was a '77 or '78 monte carlo and those two years are supposed to be different and i wanted to buy drop spindles and a bag kit if made for it. Does anyone know how to tell the difference?

Also, the rearend is from a monte carlo and i think i am going to use the factory triangulated 4-link mounts on the top of the pumpkin. i would like to know the length of the links eye to eye so i have a starting point. i will make the top links as long as possible then add the same length to the bottom.

Sorry for rambling! Just had elbow surgery and i'm getting stir crazy sitting here. Build thread coming soon! Thanks!

[pgf545]

I don't know if the spindles and a-arms are different but the body's are differently different. 78 was the first year for the smaller car and 77 was still a pretty big car. I would check with who you are going to buy your stuff from and maybe they can tell you.

Bernie

[JELLY]

Thanks for the reply Bernie. Looks like that is what i'll do.

Nice build by the way. Wish i had a shop like yours. My build is happening in a single car garage! I put french doors from the garage into the second bedroom for more room!

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Thanks for the reply Bernie. Looks like that is what i'll do.

Nice build by the way. Wish i had a shop like yours. My build is happening in a single car garage! I put french doors from the garage into the second bedroom for more room!

FWIW worth plan on enclosing the doors if you sell the house, there is a reason the Fire Code requires a 1 hour wall with rated door between the garage and living space. Also, if you have a problem, might invalidate you home insurance.

[JELLY]

The wall will be put back when i sell that was the plan. Do the exterior french doors not have a fire rating at all? Gotta work with what i have

[OrrieG]

Originally Posted by JELLY

The wall will be put back when i sell that was the plan. Do the exterior french doors not have a fire rating at all? Gotta work with what i have

No, solid core wood or hollow metal, both in listed frames with listed hardware and smoke seals.

[1-ton of fun]

For the rear end, the length of the original links is irrelevent. What you need to do is set up the frame mounts for those links for proper geometry for the truck.

[JELLY]

Thanks 1-ton. This is my first build of a vehicle. Done bikes before. I was just going to use the link measurements as a starting point. How do you figure the geometry for the rear? I read somewhere that the upper links should be 30% of the length of the lowers. Is that correct?

Thanks for the help, this site has a wealth of knowledge!

[youngrodder]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Thanks 1-ton. This is my first build of a vehicle. Done bikes before. I was just going to use the link measurements as a starting point. How do you figure the geometry for the rear? I read somewhere that the upper links should be 30% of the length of the lowers. Is that correct?

Thanks for the help, this site has a wealth of knowledge!

Jelly-

My truck uses the front and rear suspension from a g-body (78-88 I believe). The PO used the stock set up with coil sping suspension and it road great. I did upgrade to air ride (keeping the stock spindles) and went with boxed aftermarket trailing arms. I can measure from eye to eye on my original uppers and lowers if that would help.

Let me know
Marc

[JELLY]

Mark,

Those measurements would be great to have! Also i read the spindles on the '77 have the caliper mount fordged as one and '78 is a bolt on mount for the caliper. Mine are one piece. What do your look like?

Sweet truck! Do you have more pics?

Thanks,
Jeremy

[JELLY]

Marc,

What size tires/wheels are you running?

[youngrodder]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Mark,

Those measurements would be great to have! Also i read the spindles on the '77 have the caliper mount fordged as one and '78 is a bolt on mount for the caliper. Mine are one piece. What do your look like?

Sweet truck! Do you have more pics?

Thanks,
Jeremy

Jeremy--

My spindles are one piece.

For more pics go to
http://s79.photobucket.com/albums/j158/Youngrodder/

If it asks for a password use 1948truck. This project is going on 7+ yrs so some of these photos are old. I have a lot more pics that I need to add to my album.

I found my OE upper control arm and from center to center of the holes it measures 11-1/4. I could not locate the lowers, so next time I am at the body shop I can measure my aftermarket lowers which are the same length as OE.

Originally Posted by JELLY

Marc,

What size tires/wheels are you running?

I will be going with 20's. The current rims are a 15". Fronts are 6.5" wide with a 215x70 tire and the rear are 10" wide with a 275x60. I have mini tubs in the bed to be able to run the 10" wide rim.

I like the chop. It will look even better if you get the truck really low. In my opinion most people with a chop fail to get the truck low enough and the proportions look wack....

Thanks
Marc

[JELLY]

Marc,

Thanks for the info. I guess my clip is a '78 then. Did you buy bag kit for your front or peice it together?

No need to get the other measurement on the lower. I think they will have to be longer to get the suspension travel i want.

Checked out the pics. You made alot of changes! I hoping i can get mine sooner than 7 years i just need this elbow to heal.

I keep going back and forth on the wheels. I like the wide whites but i also like the staggered look with 20's in the back and 18's in the front. Then today i found 18' tires with 2.25" white walls. Just gotta find wheels that look right. Where'd ya get the tubs?

Yeah the truck will sit pretty much on the ground like yours for sure. Gotta clean up some of the chop job, passenger door isnt right and some welding isnt finished. Yes they do look wrong if not low enough. I was thinking of sectioning the hood alittle to even things out more.

Anyway thank again for your help!

Jeremy

[1-ton of fun]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Thanks 1-ton. This is my first build of a vehicle. Done bikes before. I was just going to use the link measurements as a starting point. How do you figure the geometry for the rear? I read somewhere that the upper links should be 30% of the length of the lowers. Is that correct?

Thanks for the help, this site has a wealth of knowledge!

the longer the better. in my 3link design i did for my truck the upper and lower links are the same, 24". the longer the links, the less pinion angle change there is with suspension movement.

as for the geometry, from a side view, the links will intersect at an imaginary point called the instant center. this can be adjusted by changing the height from the ground that either end of the upper or lower links attach to the body or axle. for best launch characteristics, you want this point to fall on a line drawn from the contact patch of the rear tire with the ground to a line perpendicular to the ground, intersecting that lie at the height of the center of gravity of the truck. below this line will cause the rear of the truck to squat on launch, above will cause the rear to rise on launch. right on the line and you will have 100% anti-sqaut (a good thing) and the rear will not raise or lower on launch. there are other factors to consider such as the side view swing arm length (SVSA) and roll centers.

it is best if you are fabbing the brackets to design some adjustability into them so the suspension can be tuned once it is together and on the road.

[JELLY]

Originally Posted by 1-ton of fun

the longer the better. in my 3link design i did for my truck the upper and lower links are the same, 24". the longer the links, the less pinion angle change there is with suspension movement.

as for the geometry, from a side view, the links will intersect at an imaginary point called the instant center. this can be adjusted by changing the height from the ground that either end of the upper or lower links attach to the body or axle. for best launch characteristics, you want this point to fall on a line drawn from the contact patch of the rear tire with the ground to a line perpendicular to the ground, intersecting that lie at the height of the center of gravity of the truck. below this line will cause the rear of the truck to squat on launch, above will cause the rear to rise on launch. right on the line and you will have 100% anti-sqaut (a good thing) and the rear will not raise or lower on launch. there are other factors to consider such as the side view swing arm length (SVSA) and roll centers.

it is best if you are fabbing the brackets to design some adjustability into them so the suspension can be tuned once it is together and on the road.

1-Ton,

I watched my DVRed extreme4x4 show today and thats exactly what they said! I just need to find the center of gravity and roll center and i understand the rest.

As for brackets, i am fabbing everything. I bought threaded inserts and ends already for link length adjustment. I may make the axle and frame brackets with a few different mounting holes also.

[Houston54]

If your suspension is from a 78 G-body you can find drop spindles from most suppliers. If you retain your original spindles you will may have a harder time finding bearings as the 78 spindle design on the G-body cars is unique. The 79 and up spindles are different. The S-10 also uses the same spindles so if you want to simplify future maintenance you can always swap the 78 one out.

I found I did not need to use drop spindles as the way I installed the sub-frame got the truck to a good stance. Any lower and I would be scrapping going in and out of driveways/parking lots.

There are some pics of my install in the picturetrail link in my signature.

Have you fitted the core support to the frame yet? If not you will be in for a surprise.

[youngrodder]

Originally Posted by JELLY

Marc,

Thanks for the info. I guess my clip is a '78 then. Did you buy bag kit for your front or peice it together?

No need to get the other measurement on the lower. I think they will have to be longer to get the suspension travel i want.

Checked out the pics. You made alot of changes! I hoping i can get mine sooner than 7 years i just need this elbow to heal.

I keep going back and forth on the wheels. I like the wide whites but i also like the staggered look with 20's in the back and 18's in the front. Then today i found 18' tires with 2.25" white walls. Just gotta find wheels that look right. Where'd ya get the tubs?

Yeah the truck will sit pretty much on the ground like yours for sure. Gotta clean up some of the chop job, passenger door isnt right and some welding isnt finished. Yes they do look wrong if not low enough. I was thinking of sectioning the hood alittle to even things out more.

Anyway thank again for your help!

Jeremy

Jeremey-

I bought a kit from Air ride for a g-body. This was quite a few years back. No all of there kits I beleive have all sorts of leveling sensors to install. Mine has 4 corner control of the bags and 1/4 line.

The tubs I got from Dan Carpenter who makes stuff for Ford trucks. The tubs were expensive, but I like the curve that they have. Since these trucks are rounded trailer fenders would not look as good. These are also only 2 3/4 wide.

Marc

[youngrodder]

Originally Posted by Houston54

If your suspension is from a 78 G-body you can find drop spindles from most suppliers. If you retain your original spindles you will may have a harder time finding bearings as the 78 spindle design on the G-body cars is unique. The 79 and up spindles are different. The S-10 also uses the same spindles so if you want to simplify future maintenance you can always swap the 78 one out.

I found I did not need to use drop spindles as the way I installed the sub-frame got the truck to a good stance. Any lower and I would be scrapping going in and out of driveways/parking lots.

There are some pics of my install in the picturetrail link in my signature.

Have you fitted the core support to the frame yet? If not you will be in for a surprise.

Huston--

I know what you mean about the core supprt (steering box). What radiator did you use? My frame set up looks different then yours. Did you Z the frame? My core support had to be shortened. When I bought it, it was a driver and had a 48 car radiator in in.

Nice truck

Marc

[1-ton of fun]

Originally Posted by JELLY

1-Ton,

I watched my DVRed extreme4x4 show today and thats exactly what they said! I just need to find the center of gravity and roll center and i understand the rest.

As for brackets, i am fabbing everything. I bought threaded inserts and ends already for link length adjustment. I may make the axle and frame brackets with a few different mounting holes also.

one thing that will help since measuring the height of the center of gravity is difficult, especially on a project car that is in pieces, it to estimate a highest and lowest possible CG height, and then design your frame brackets to adjust to cover the whole range needed for those two different scenarios. as for the link lengths, see what will make fabrication and installation easiest of the frame brackets, then figure out what length works for that plan.

if you can give me the wheelbase, tire height, and the height from the ground (using the tire height that you will be using on the truck) of the upper and lower mounting points on the axle, i can help you with the calculations.

[JELLY]

Originally Posted by Houston54

If your suspension is from a 78 G-body you can find drop spindles from most suppliers. If you retain your original spindles you will may have a harder time finding bearings as the 78 spindle design on the G-body cars is unique. The 79 and up spindles are different. The S-10 also uses the same spindles so if you want to simplify future maintenance you can always swap the 78 one out.

I found I did not need to use drop spindles as the way I installed the sub-frame got the truck to a good stance. Any lower and I would be scrapping going in and out of driveways/parking lots.

There are some pics of my install in the picturetrail link in my signature.

Have you fitted the core support to the frame yet? If not you will be in for a surprise.

So i should swap the spindle to a '79 or newer? The spindle shaft and bearings are the only difference?

The core support is in and the splice work looks alot like what is shown in your pics.

Thanks
Jeremy

[JELLY]

Originally Posted by youngrodder

Jeremey-

I bought a kit from Air ride for a g-body. This was quite a few years back. No all of there kits I beleive have all sorts of leveling sensors to install. Mine has 4 corner control of the bags and 1/4 line.

The tubs I got from Dan Carpenter who makes stuff for Ford trucks. The tubs were expensive, but I like the curve that they have. Since these trucks are rounded trailer fenders would not look as good. These are also only 2 3/4 wide.

Marc

Marc,

Gotcha on the air ride, makes it easier knowing what year the front is!

Those tubs do look better that some squared off trailer fender or something, i'll have to look into them.

[Houston54]

Originally Posted by youngrodder

Huston--

I know what you mean about the core supprt (steering box). What radiator did you use? My frame set up looks different then yours. Did you Z the frame? My core support had to be shortened. When I bought it, it was a driver and had a 48 car radiator in in.

Nice truck

Marc

I used a Desert Cooler radiator for a V8 application with trans cooler. It is the same dimensions as the stock unit but is a three row design. I am running an electric fan from a Taurus and the temp does not get above 180 in Houston traffic. I got the radiator through Classic Parts for about $320 some years back. I do not know what they are going for now though. I researched the heck of it before deciding there really was not another radiator that would fit well.

The mounting of the radiator took some doing in that the steering box creates an extreme interference with the core support. I sectioned out the core support and welded in a brace that reconnected the side and bottom. Since the front sheetmetal is indexed off the core support any change in the height or front-to-back reference will throw the sheet metal off. I then sliced the front mounting surface of the core support from the top down to about one inch below the bottom hole used for the radiator mounting. This surface was then folded back at the top so it slanted forward from top to bottom. This effectively kicks the bottom of the radiator forward to clear the steering box while maintaining the top of the radiator as close to stock location as possible.

The attached pic show this pretty well.

[youngrodder]

Originally Posted by Houston54

I used a Desert Cooler radiator for a V8 application with trans cooler. It is the same dimensions as the stock unit but is a three row design. I am running an electric fan from a Taurus and the temp does not get above 180 in Houston traffic. I got the radiator through Classic Parts for about $320 some years back. I do not know what they are going for now though. I researched the heck of it before deciding there really was not another radiator that would fit well.

The mounting of the radiator took some doing in that the steering box creates an extreme interference with the core support. I sectioned out the core support and welded in a brace that reconnected the side and bottom. Since the front sheetmetal is indexed off the core support any change in the height or front-to-back reference will throw the sheet metal off. I then sliced the front mounting surface of the core support from the top down to about one inch below the bottom hole used for the radiator mounting. This surface was then folded back at the top so it slanted forward from top to bottom. This effectively kicks the bottom of the radiator forward to clear the steering box while maintaining the top of the radiator as close to stock location as possible.

The attached pic show this pretty well.

Thanks--

Simular obstical but different frame and core support set up. I might just go with a slightly narrower radiator and offset to one side to clear the steering box. I have all of my sheet metal fitting and I am close to paint so I don't want to start over by making a change to the core supprt.

Marc

[Houston54]

Originally Posted by JELLY

So i should swap the spindle to a '79 or newer? The spindle shaft and bearings are the only difference?

The core support is in and the splice work looks alot like what is shown in your pics.

Thanks
Jeremy

You do not have to swap but you might want to see if you can source the wheel bearings easily. For me it was cheaper to swap the spindles as the 78 bearings were several times more $$ than the 79 and up units. I also had some 81 spindles laying around. You can find replacements easily and cheap enough to make it worthwhile in the long run. If you are going to drop spindles this is a moot point.

As to using lowering spindles I do not think you will need them IF you are putting bags on each corner. The airbag retrofits I have seen have all required sectioning of the front spring pockets on the sub-frame to provide enough clearance for the bags.

[55belairtim]

hi
like houston said the 78 spindle is all to itself, i would change up the the 79-88 spindle, you can get drop spindles for those years.