Tbi swap build thread

[spinem]

wow! this is truly amazing STICKY!

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by pancake

The engine is a 350ci with a TH400 behind it. It has headers with a 4 wire 02 sensor, TBI abapter plate with no EGR.

7747 ECM with ASDU calibration

Cam shaft is Summit® Camshafts
Camshaft, Hydraulic Flat Tappet, Advertised Duration 252/ 262, Lift .398/ .420, Chevy, Small Block

as for the balancer...it is stock and and so is the timing cover. I will have to see if the outer ring has slipped ...but I don't think so because when I was setting the dizzy I had it at TDC on #1 (with valve cover off and spark plug removed) and the balancer verified that.

I will recheck it.

I did not alter the SA tables and I dont think the previous owner did ( it was stock)

Pankake

I looked up your cam on Summit Racing (K1101) - it is a mild (improvement over stock TBI cam) and stock ASDU calibration should be able to handle it, but it is always a good idea to dial in VE and SA tables to get best possible performance out of your engine as no two engines are alike. One issue that you'll have to face down the (off) road - is EGR disable when you get VSS installed and functioning. Since your application is for for off-road use EGR will hardly provide any benefits (no steady driving, etc).

Getting back at you current problem. Do simple checks first. In TBI system ECM controls timing. As I have mentioned before at idle, 650 RPM, timing should be bouncing between 17 to 22 deg. As you bring RPMs up timing should advance - with no load on engine timing should be climb to about 30 deg around 2200-2800 RPM. The easiest way to do this check is to have timing light with timing retard control. Now - these numbers are just ball park figures as ECM is performing over a dozen timing calculations 80 times per second.

//RF

[65Guy]

Is there anyway to eliminate the EGR from the harness. When you dont need emissions. with out the ses light coming on?

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

Is there anyway to eliminate the EGR from the harness. When you dont need emissions. with out the ses light coming on?

A simple answer is NO. Disconnecting EGR control solenoid and eliminating harness connector will result in SES coming on with a stock EPROM calibration, for example ASDU. Unlike pre-computer (aka ECM) EGR operation is validated by ECM. Depending on BCC there are several verifications methods employed by ECM to verify EGR activation and its effect on the engine operation. The most common, after engine reaches normal operating temperature (above 47.5C), with steady TPS above idle, ECM will briefly command EGR to 100% duty cycle while monitoring MAP voltage. When EGR goes to 100% duty cycle intake manifold vacuum will drop and MAP voltage increases. ECM is looking for this drop for EGR test validation. After couple attempts at this ECM will set SES light if MAP fails to increase (lower vacuum reading).

The only way to de-activate EGR is to increase EGR enable temperature in EPROM calibration tables from 47.5C to maximum 155C. This way ECM will never be able to enable EGR operation and self test will never run. This modification requires custom EPROM and unless you know how to do this I suggest that you contact Bryan at TBIchips if you have no ability to burn your own EPROM chips.

http://www.tbichips.com/

Hacking harness will not get you there.

//RF

[65Guy]

So it will run but the ses light will always be on or it wont run? How to you burn your own chips?

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

So it will run but the ses light will always be on or it wont run? How to you burn your own chips?

It will run, but very poorly. Depending on calibration it may keep timing down and revert to a fixed fueling - this is also known as a limp mode. Since I do not know your set up it is hard to tell what ECM may or may not do. In other words you really need to fix EGR.

I do not burn chips - I have modified my ECM to use flash memory on a special adapter board. It is an advance ECM tuning mod PCBA which allows for rapid operational parameter changes. It is designed to tame highly modified engines or extract the last ounce of performance out of stock.

If you want to burn your own chips you'll need to ready and 'study' the following FAQ. And mean read it couple of times for it to sink in.

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/di...uide-book.html


//RF

[65Guy]

Thanks for the info. I havent bought the parts needed yet. I went to the junk yard to pull a harness but it all seamed a bit overwellming. I a visual learner and reading all the posts without pics makes my head spin. I need a seqential how to from start to finish on every step and detail but probly no such.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

Thanks for the info. I havent bought the parts needed yet. I went to the junk yard to pull a harness but it all seamed a bit overwellming. I a visual learner and reading all the posts without pics makes my head spin. I need a seqential how to from start to finish on every step and detail but probly no such.

Well me too. But you have to have some basic understanding how ECM and EFI components operate to make it all worth while. In this thread there are numerous photo's and diagrams that you will not find any where else. Lets start at the very beginning:

What are you trying to a accomplish and how much time do you have (money helps shorten time, but it is always in short supply)? As a group - we can walk you through this.

//RF

[65Guy]

I have a 65 truck and I tired of fighting with carbs and cold starts and I want reliability of efi. I have more time than money. I would like to start with a harness what is the ideal donor vehicle.?

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

I have a 65 truck and I tired of fighting with carbs and cold starts and I want reliability of efi. I have more time than money. I would like to start with a harness what is the ideal donor vehicle.?

Same here and after spending hundreds of dollars on a new carb with little or no improvement! About four years ago I was fighting with original Q-Jet, went to Holley with little or no improvement. I was p'off.

What size engine (an trany) do you have and what shape is it in???? If it is stock 350 and / or it has a mild RV cam the swap is really easy. Even if it is a 283 or 327 the late eighties EFI from C/K, burban can be easily adapted. TBI EFI is a speed density system - it relies on MAP sensor to determine engine load (among other inputs) to calculate amount of fuel and timing to be supplied to the engine.

While hunting for a suitable donor on a JY look for the following vehicles:

a) 87-92 C/K, burban. ECM should have service part number 1227747 (other service numbers will work as well). For 350 look for BCC ANLW, ANLZ, ASDZ or ASDU and for 305 AFDY or AJUK plus others. Either 305 or 350 will work, but if EFI system is closer to your engine displacement the better. Unless you have V6 or BBC.

b) 87-92 F-bodies - these are 305 TBI (LO3). Look for 1228746 ECM (other service numbers are possible. TPI swap is possible, but it is not for beginner!

c) 90-93 B-body Caprices/Road master/Rear drive Cadillac. I have seen 305 and 350 TBI engines (LO3/LO5). These are least desirable since distributor is specific to B-body. However the rest of the components are the same.

What to grab:
Everything!
1) ECM and plastic mounting bracket (located behind glove box in C/K trucks), ALDL connector mounted in cab (you'll have to cut wires, but leave about 12" of wires for splicing.)
2) Harness - spend the time to gently extract it without braking connectors or cutting wires! Expect to spend 1-1/2 to 2 hours for extraction. It is your foundation for a successful EFI transplant. Before starting removal examine the harness - look for anything that may look like repair or a hack. You do not want that. Dirty or oil soaked harness can be cleaned up with brake clean. Due to age some connectors plastic bodies may brake, but it is very easy to replace them.
3) Intake manifold and everything mounted on it - TB, CTS, ESC / MAP / EGR solenoid bracket, etc. See post #7 in this thread.
4) Distributor
5) CCP canister
6) Relays - you may want to grab some spares (look for front wheel drive Buick and cadies and grab both relay and sockets - allow ~12" for wire pig tails).

Do not grab knock sensor (KS) - these are not worth re-using and a new unit should be procured from parts store.

Did I forget anything????

side note:
My preference is to install full size dizzy (HEI). The EFI trucks use small size dizzy with external coil which is known to fail. To get around this I use HEI from early to mid 80's CCC carburetor equipped cars (F-bodies, B-bodies, vans, etc) as these units have four wire ECM connector. It is fully compatible with TBI EFI system, but connector plug needs to be retrofitted. More on this later.

//RF

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

I have a 65 truck and I tired of fighting with carbs and cold starts and I want reliability of efi. I have more time than money. I would like to start with a harness what is the ideal donor vehicle.?

Are you running an auto tranny or a manual and which one?

A mid 80's G-body Oldsmobile Cutlass mechanical speedo with the optical VSS buffer is probably your best bet and the least expensive route to getting the VSS signal you need from an older transmission. The speedo head can be fit to an older face plate and then it can be recalibrated to match the face plate MPH range and sweep angle of your 65. The Olds speedo is the long rectangular configuration similar to your 65 so it will be closest to what you need.

It is possible to change the speedo gears in the transmission to change the range of the speedo from 85 mph to 120 mph by doing a little math. I did this with an 87 Cutlass I had and made an overlay for the speedo face to change the range from 85 mph to 120 mph.

If you have a round speedo then the mid 80's C/K speedo with the optical buffer VSS would work better. I am doing this with my 67 C-10.

[rfmaster]

Oh yes forgot about O2 sensor.

If you have headers - run 3 or 4 wire heated sensor. If you have cast iron manifolds - grab exhaust manifolds from a donor (IFRC driver side where stock O2 is mounted). It cost $20 at muffler shop to install O2 bung. A single wire O2 works well in cast iron manifold, but will problematic with headers. I had equal success with BOSCH and Delco O2's, but Delco units are preferred since ECM close loop algorithm is optimized to match their response. BOSCH is a bit different, but still works.

Vehicle speed sensor (VSS) - there are numerous approaches (68TT that's a great tidbit!) as ECM needs this input.

P/N switch for automatic - this allows for idle compensation when shifting from park into gear and back.

Expect to run a new 3/8" fuel line from gas tank to feed TB. Use soft steel line to run fuel line. Yes, it is a bit more expensive and more work, but we are talking safety here. Use existing fuel line for fuel return if it is in good shape (we are talking about 45 year old line here). IFRC in '65 there were no Charcoal Canister Purge (CCP), but its addition keeps gas fumes from escaping your gas tank into atmosphere (and keeps eco Nazis happy).
More than likely you'll have to add fuel return and CCP (1/4") to your fuel sending - pickup module. Gas tank pickup module should have 3 outlets - TBI fuel supply (3/8"), TBI fuel return (3/8 or 5/16"), and purge (1/4"). An inline fuel pump is the easiest way to go. I use Carter P5001 and it has worked well for me for the past 3 years. There are numerous alternatives but keep in mind that you do not need supper high pressure pump - 20 to 30 PSI and about 50 GPH is adequate.


Now, back to the grind.

//RF

[65Guy]

Wow ok thanks for the info I have a motor going in. It is 87-92 350. I have a th350 trans but i plan to by a 4l60E for the fuel millage. As for the fuel lines i get a little lost on the lines and pickup moduel and such i need a pic. Thanks again for the help!

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

Wow ok thanks for the info I have a motor going in. It is 87-92 350. I have a th350 trans but i plan to by a 4l60E for the fuel millage. As for the fuel lines i get a little lost on the lines and pickup moduel and such i need a pic. Thanks again for the help!

The E-trans will put you into another category entirely when it comes to VSS and the computer you can use to run the TBI system.

You will need the 94-95 vintage 16197427 PCM or one of its clones to run the transmission and the TBI system. You can use the older 16147060 PCM and a few others too but they are much less popular and not as well hacked as the 7427.

You will need either an electronic speedometer or an expensive conversion box or tail shaft housing retrofit. None of which are budget friendly in a 65.

I like the e-trans but in your case trying to keep on budget you are much better off using an earlier 4L60 / 700R4 transmission that already has the mechanical speedometer output and can be run on the much simpler and much easier to find 1227747 ECM.

You could do a stand alone PCM to run just the trans (like the diesel trans controller) and use the 7747 ECM for the TBI system but you would still have the electronic speedometer issue to deal with.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

Wow ok thanks for the info I have a motor going in. It is 87-92 350. I have a th350 trans but i plan to by a 4l60E for the fuel millage. As for the fuel lines i get a little lost on the lines and pickup moduel and such i need a pic. Thanks again for the help!

1) 4L60E transmission is an electronically controlled version of the 700R4 (4L60). 4L60E requires a powertrain control module (PCM) from a later (1993-1995) model TBI truck. PCM controls both engine and transmission as a unit which improves over earlier generation EFI systems.
To keep things simple I suggest that you stick with upgraded 700R4 which only has TCC, and top gear indicator (three wires that go the trany in 87-92 TBI motors).

2) Fuel tank plumbing parts can be found in post # 135, ?

3) Parts needed for a TBI swap can be seen in post # 172

//RF

[65Guy]

Yet again thanks for the info.

[65Guy]

rfmaster what vss and fuel pump do you have, where can I buy them and the cost? thanks

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by 65Guy

rfmaster what vss and fuel pump do you have, where can I buy them and the cost? thanks

1) Assuming that you are going with 1227747 ECM (found in 87-92 PU's) you'll need 2000 ppm VSS. I bought my VSS in 07 from JTR, http://www.jagsthatrun.com/

Part Number 2PRS. $75 includes shipping. There are other VSS vendors, but I have not tried them - thus I can not comment.

2) There are numerous fuel pumps that will work just fine for TBI conversion. For my conversions I used in-line, externally mounted fuel pump. I use Carter P5001 which can provide up to 20 PSI at TB inlet while flowing 50 GPH. Stock or near stock TBI systems do not need high pressure or excess volume fuel pumps as it leads to increased fuel temperature rise and excessive delivery pressure may cause FP regulation variances due to return fuel path restrictions. It is available from numerous online vendors for about $152 (summit, jegs, etc). The reason why I like this pump is that is self priming and does not have fuel pulsing found in lower priced pumps (Airtex, master, etc).

//RF

[zukking01]

The info in here is amazing and tons of it. I joined because of this sticky.

My question is I have dual tanks from a 79 chevy and wonder what I can do to keep both tanks or if I need to straight plumb one and reserve fill from the other?

Also on the harness there are factory splices on some of the wires. When I cut down the harness do I need to remover or retain the factory splices?

Thanks for all the info.

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by zukking01

The info in here is amazing and tons of it. I joined because of this sticky.

My question is I have dual tanks from a 79 chevy and wonder what I can do to keep both tanks or if I need to straight plumb one and reserve fill from the other?

Also on the harness there are factory splices on some of the wires. When I cut down the harness do I need to remover or retain the factory splices?

Thanks for all the info.

You can keep both tanks but you'll have to do a bit of fuel system plumbing. In my case I built a surge tank (~ 1quart) which is fed by low pressure lift pump. The LP pump can selectively be fed from either tank trough 2-way fuel selector valve (aka UN-50 Polack). Excess (overflow) fuel is fed back into sourced tank through another 2-way valve. Newer, 6 port Polack selector valves can handle up to 60 psi, so in tank fuel pumps can be used instead. You'll need gas tanks with baffles and in tank fuel pumps from 87+ truck. But it makes for a very clean installation, but keep in mind that 73-81 Pickups 20 Gal used SMALL FILLER PIPE = 1 1/4" I.D. (Mfg: Spectra Premium; Mfg Part Num:GM1A; Hollander# HOL# 197-982) and later 87-91 20 Gal used LARGE FILLER PIPE = 1 5/8" I.D. for EFI, with baffle (Mfg: Spectra Premium; Mfg Part Num:GM1C; Holander Hol #197-1417)



This is my as build dual tank system, but it can be simplified if you have 6-port valve.



Surge tank


Fuel selector and low pressure lift pump



On the splices - those are probably are ground - post photos of the splices to be sure.

//RF

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

You can keep both tanks but you'll have to do a bit of fuel system plumbing. In my case I built a surge tank (~ 1quart) which is fed by low pressure lift pump. The LP pump can selectively be fed from either tank trough 2-way fuel selector valve (aka UN-50 Polack). Excess (overflow) fuel is fed back into sourced tank through another 2-way valve. Newer, 6 port Polack selector valves can handle up to 60 psi, so in tank fuel pumps can be used instead. You'll need gas tanks with baffles and in tank fuel pumps from 87+ truck. But it makes for a very clean installation, but keep in mind that 73-81 Pickups 20 Gal used SMALL FILLER PIPE = 1 1/4" I.D. (Mfg: Spectra Premium; Mfg Part Num:GM1A; Hollander# HOL# 197-982) and later 87-91 20 Gal used LARGE FILLER PIPE = 1 5/8" I.D. for EFI, with baffle (Mfg: Spectra Premium; Mfg Part Num:GM1C; Holander Hol #197-1417)

//RF

Or you can get lucky and find an 87 TBI dual tank truck at the wrecking yard like I did and grab all the stock plumbing and switching valve parts off of it to do the conversion job.

[cheepin]

I swapped in a 88 FI454 into my Jeep/buggy.It runs fine.But it won't start on it's own.I need to dump a touch of gas in the tbi then it fires and runs.What could be the problem?I kept the stock engine harness mixed with a universal harness for the rest.

[USSkoval]

Originally Posted by rfmaster

You can keep both tanks but you'll have to do a bit of fuel system plumbing. In my case I built a surge tank (~ 1quart) which is fed by low pressure lift pump. The LP pump can selectively be fed from either tank trough 2-way fuel selector valve (aka UN-50 Polack). Excess (overflow) fuel is fed back into sourced tank through another 2-way valve. Newer, 6 port Polack selector valves can handle up to 60 psi, so in tank fuel pumps can be used instead. You'll need gas tanks with baffles and in tank fuel pumps from 87+ truck. But it makes for a very clean installation, but keep in mind that 73-81 Pickups 20 Gal used SMALL FILLER PIPE = 1 1/4" I.D. (Mfg: Spectra Premium; Mfg Part Num:GM1A; Hollander# HOL# 197-982) and later 87-91 20 Gal used LARGE FILLER PIPE = 1 5/8" I.D. for EFI, with baffle (Mfg: Spectra Premium; Mfg Part Num:GM1C; Holander Hol #197-1417)



This is my as build dual tank system, but it can be simplified if you have 6-port valve.

Dang, that looks complicated. My '79 has a single-wire, 6 port valve. It is carbed, but it has the factory return line setup. My plan was to relocate the valve lower on the frame and mount an electric pump after the valve, and reuse the factory return that passes through the valve. Do you see a problem with doing it that way?

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by cheepin

I swapped in a 88 FI454 into my Jeep/buggy.It runs fine.But it won't start on it's own.I need to dump a touch of gas in the tbi then it fires and runs.What could be the problem?I kept the stock engine harness mixed with a universal harness for the rest.

You need to verify POST functionality - ignition key from off into run position, but do not attempt to crank engine over. You should see SES light go from solid on blink off back to on. Meanwhile fuel pump must come on for about 2 seconds and shut off. If the pump does not come during this check the likely culprit is a bad fuel pump relay, wiring between ECM (Pin A1 dark green/white) and Fuel pump relay coil circuit, or possibly blown driver transistor that provides + 12V to energize FP coil. The black/white wire in the FP relay socket must be grounded. Otherwise coil will never be energized.

When you pour a little bit of gas into TB engine fires and oil pressure switch NO contacts close once oil pressure is in excess of 6 PSI thus providing power to the fuel pump.

Check and see if there +12 volts supplied by ECM to FP relay coil circuit when engine is running (the aforementioned A1 dark green-wht wire) .

//RF

[rfmaster]

Originally Posted by USSkoval

Dang, that looks complicated. My '79 has a single-wire, 6 port valve. It is carbed, but it has the factory return line setup. My plan was to relocate the valve lower on the frame and mount an electric pump after the valve, and reuse the factory return that passes through the valve. Do you see a problem with doing it that way?

That should work - but keep in mind that fuel slash during braking or acceleration may uncover fuel sock casing FP to suck in some air.