Why didn't GM offer a 454 in 4wd 3/4 tons?

[JCampbell]

I was just pondering this on my way home. Anybody have any insight as to why GM didn't offer a 454 in the 3/4 ton 4wd models?

Seems like the perfect engine for that application.

[nekkidhillbilly]

they did in certain years if im not mistaken. seems like you could get it in the 70s in a half ton. i know in the 90s it was option for a 3/4 ton but idk about the 80s. i looked at a 00 still the obs 3/4 ton had the 454. right before i bought my 01.

[ghettoluxury]

It was due to the beefy front axle needed for the torque from the 454. A 10 bolt just won't cut it under a big block.

[nekkidhillbilly]

well the 3/4 ton suburban had the option ive found that so idk why the trucks wouldnt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Suburban

[nekkidhillbilly]

http://www.ehow.com/list_7451534_197...uck-specs.html

was an option

[86454k30]

2wd 3/4 ton suburbans and trucks could be optioned with 454s. NO 4wd 3/4 tons were available with a 454 from the factory. The 2wd 3/4tons with 454s also got 10.5" 14 bolt FF instead of the 9.5" SF that the 350 trucks/suburbans came with.

[nekkidhillbilly]

really wiki is wrong then it says you could get it in the 4wd suburbans says most where 2wd however.

idk why the 10 bolt wouldnt work then look at the pos axle under the 454 in the 90s

[andrewmp6]

The 454 in the 1ton in the 90s used a 14 bolt or dana if i remember right,Now if your talking about the 454ss that engine was so detuned it couldn't break a 10 bolt lol.

[donut]

Originally Posted by ghettoluxury

It was due to the beefy front axle needed for the torque from the 454. A 10 bolt just won't cut it under a big block.

One possibility, (sounds good too).
I always thought it was mileage and emissions also. 4wd's of the era traditionally don't get the economy of the 2wd's.

Sales is another possibility. I've seen far more small block powered c-20,30's than big block.

[JCampbell]

Originally Posted by 86454k30

The 2wd 3/4tons with 454s also got 10.5" 14 bolt FF instead of the 9.5" SF that the 350 trucks/suburbans came with.

So the 14 bolt in my '90 3/4 2wd parts Suburban should be a full floater? What gear ratio should that be? Somewhere around a 4.11?

I was going to swap 4.11's into my 3/4 4wd Suburban. It'd be nice if it was a full float with 4.11's. I'd just swap axles.

[Firebirdjones]

Originally Posted by nekkidhillbilly

well the 3/4 ton suburban had the option ive found that so idk why the trucks wouldnt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Suburban

Yes, you can get the 454 in the 4x4 suburban. I've already looked at a handfull of them forsale. They are out there. Not sure why factory brochures list them as never built, I've seen them with my own eyes as of late. Maybe special order deals,,,don't know.

This is the exact combo I've been looking for as a camp/tow/off road type of recreational vehicle. I've looked at 3 different square bodies (one as old as 82 or 83 with 60k original miles) and another that was 88 I think?

I've also looked at a few 454 suburban 4x4's of early 90's vintage, and I'm considering a 94 at the moment.

To me these are the ultimate "do everything" vehicle. I like my 72 4x4 blazer with a 6.0/4L60E swap, and it tows small stuff, but there isn't alot of room inside for a whole family and camping inside is out of the question, it just makes a good daily driver for the most part.
My 79 1 ton 454 pickup is the main towing beast for my 28 foot trailer but it's 2wd so camping/off roading is out with this one.

A 3/4 ton 4x4 suburban with a 454 however covers all those bases in one vehicle.

[Keith Seymore]

Because of the torque multiplication available in the transfer case, and it's ability to therefore trash the axles.

2wd doesn't have that concern.

K

[Firebirdjones]

I don't think that was a real concern. 3/4 ton 4x4 454 burbs are out there to be found. Like I mentioned, I've already looked at a few forsale as old as 82-83. They just aren't very common. Leads me to believe these trucks may have been ordered this way but can't say for sure.

Quite a few more pop up forsale when you jump into the 90's which has given me more choices. I just don't like the body style as much.

[Firebirdjones]

Here is the old add of an 83 4x4 454 suburban I looked at a few months back.
60k original miles and original owner....Like I mentioned, these things were made,,,just don't know how many...

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/2905737530.html

[JCampbell]

Originally Posted by JCampbell

So the 14 bolt in my '90 3/4 2wd parts Suburban should be a full floater? What gear ratio should that be? Somewhere around a 4.11?

I was going to swap 4.11's into my 3/4 4wd Suburban. It'd be nice if it was a full float with 4.11's. I'd just swap axles.

No dice. Just ran the RPO's. GT4 says I got 3.73's.

Oh, and I have the G80 Gov-Bomb.

[Zane M]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Because of the torque multiplication available in the transfer case, and it's ability to therefore trash the axles.

2wd doesn't have that concern.

K

Straight from the guy who was at GM during the era....

[Firebirdjones]

Yeah, and us car collectors believed they didn't put max wedges in station wagons, or there was a such thing as a hemi cuda convertable, even as recently as 20 years ago, collectors didn't believe the RS option was available on the COPO camaros,,,,,but this has all been proven wrong over the years as collectors get wiser, documention comes forward etc....

There may be people out there that believe this particular burb wasn't built because of this or that or someones brother says their cousin etc..

I never say never when it comes to this stuff, and actually didn't even give it a thought when looking around. Then I found a few of them.

Unfortunately I hit my link I provided and that listing is no longer there. It was there a month ago or so when I linked it in another discussion similar to this, and you still get non believers even though it was there in color I touched it people Very well could have been a western thing? Seems more people out in this neck of the woods like their camping and tow vehicles, trucks and campers. Burbs never seemed to be as popular back East. Just a guess on my part though.

No surprise he sold the darn thing. I called the day the add came out and he already had several calls. I came down with cash in hand the next day and it already had a deposit on it. Talked to the owner, nice elderly gentleman, bought the 4x4 burb new with a 454 to tow his camper. It was original down to the smog system and tower hose clamps. Definately a factory made truck. I've looked at a couple more since then. I'll dig around and see if I can find more pics of it.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Yeah, and us car collectors believed they didn't put max wedges in station wagons, or there was a such thing as a hemi cuda convertable, even as recently as 20 years ago, collectors didn't believe the RS option was available on the COPO camaros,,,,,but this has all been proven wrong over the years as collectors get wiser, documention comes forward etc....

There may be people out there that believe this particular burb wasn't built because of this or that or someones brother says their cousin etc..

I never say never when it comes to this stuff, and actually didn't even give it a thought when looking around. Then I found a few of them.

Unfortunately I hit my link I provided and that listing is no longer there. It was there a month ago or so when I linked it in another discussion similar to this, and you still get non believers even though it was there in color I touched it people Very well could have been a western thing? Seems more people out in this neck of the woods like their camping and tow vehicles, trucks and campers. Burbs never seemed to be as popular back East. Just a guess on my part though.

No surprise he sold the darn thing. I called the day the add came out and he already had several calls. I came down with cash in hand the next day and it already had a deposit on it. Talked to the owner, nice elderly gentleman, bought the 4x4 burb new with a 454 to tow his camper. It was original down to the smog system and tower hose clamps. Definately a factory made truck. I've looked at a couple more since then. I'll dig around and see if I can find more pics of it.

Ahem....since this appears directed at me I will respond -

Here are the info kits from the GM Heritage Center archives:

http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...tion-kits.html

I won't ask you to go through each year, from '73 - '87, as I have just done - but there are no 454 powered K20 Suburbans shown for any of those years on the enclosed powertrain charts. I should mention that these are the same charts that we use to release the components for production.

I'm a "never say never" guy as well, as you will see below, but I'm afraid you were fooled by a very well done aftermarket installation.

Also - if you enjoy stories about what GM will and will not do I would encourage you to read my intro/build thread, linked below, which highlights some of my experiences of nearly 30 years of designing and building GM Full Size trucks.

Lastly - for stories of cars "that don't exist" - you might check out my Pontiac link, which discusses my Dad's 32 years with GM, including his experiences racing for Pontiac Motor Division and his 4800 mile '65 GTO factory lightweight built specifically for him to race - which, according to the experts - does not exist.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Forgot about my Chevelle, which went through some interesting turns getting ordered and built:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/fea...lle/index.html

K

[special-K]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Because of the torque multiplication available in the transfer case, and it's ability to therefore trash the axles.

2wd doesn't have that concern.

K

*This isn't directed at Keith.,just using his quote to make comment on the topic of torque multiplication.

Because of torque multiplication available in the transfer case,there is no need for a 454. 350s never had any problem doing the job just fine. Gearing is how a 100hp tractor came pull a building down. The axles being too weak seems a bit over cautious. The 454 didn't have that much more power and plenty of small blocks have been built to far power and never hurt an axle. Bigger tires are more of a threat than horsepower or torque. That's one reason tire sizes were limited to what they were from the factory...I'd think

[East End K5]

As I install a 454 into my 4wd one ton single cab, I'm starting to rethink. So your saying my front axles will take a pounding with the 454? What about the 6.2 diesel CUCV model then? They come with more torque than a 454 and were available in the 1 to 1-1/4 tons? I usually think of 3/4 ton and 1 ton they same truck with just a couple of added leafs to the springs....

[Firebirdjones]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Ahem....since this appears directed at me I will respond -

Here are the info kits from the GM Heritage Center archives:

http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...tion-kits.html

]

I've seen info kits discussed on here before. It doesn't really say yay or nay though. I've seen 3 recently forsale, one I looked at I believe to be legit. Not my first rodeo with a rather large collection of rare muscle here (454 chevelle, RS 69 Z, SCJ mustang, 70 ram air III formy, and more) I'm pretty keen on things, not easy to fool me. I see alot of fake junk out there. I believed that 60k mile burb to be legit.

[ghettoluxury]

Originally Posted by East End K5

As I install a 454 into my 4wd one ton single cab, I'm starting to rethink. So your saying my front axles will take a pounding with the 454? What about the 6.2 diesel CUCV model then? They come with more torque than a 454 and were available in the 1 to 1-1/4 tons? I usually think of 3/4 ton and 1 ton they same truck with just a couple of added leafs to the springs....

No you have a Dana 60 front axle in your 1 ton it will be fine, as that was factory for a 454 truck. The problem with the 3/4 ton trucks is that they had Dana 44s or 10 bolt front axles. The torque from a 454 will snap a 10 bolt like a twig.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

I've seen info kits discussed on here before. It doesn't really say yay or nay though.

Not trying to be argumentative but - those are totally conclusive. The powertrain charts show the combinations available, right down to engine, trans, rear axle and (for the ones we use) tire size and style. We have to use those to certify vehicles for fuel economy, noise pass by, and other regulatory requirements. If we miss one of those we would have a recall/field action on our hands.

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

I've seen 3 recently forsale, one I looked at I believe to be legit.

As you see those, kick 'em my way. I'd like to take a look.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by special-K

*This isn't directed at Keith.,just using his quote to make comment on the topic of torque multiplication.

Because of torque multiplication available in the transfer case,there is no need for a 454. 350s never had any problem doing the job just fine. Gearing is how a 100hp tractor came pull a building down. The axles being too weak seems a bit over cautious. The 454 didn't have that much more power and plenty of small blocks have been built to far power and never hurt an axle. Bigger tires are more of a threat than horsepower or torque. That's one reason tire sizes were limited to what they were from the factory...I'd think

Agree - but the engineering organization as a whole was/is very conservative, and rely on a safety factory as a "cushion" against breakage and warranty costs. (The suspension guys used to have a cow when they saw what I was doing with my trucks ).

It's one thing to put a marginal design out there when you are handbuilding one or two vehicles - it's totally something else when you are putting several million out there.

K