1960-1962 Chevrolet - GMC question

[Huffstutler]

I have asked these questions on other forums but not received a definitive answer. Hoping that a specific forum like this one will have some insight or background to this?

For the 1960-1962 model year Chevy and GMC light duty pickup and Suburban’s, they utilized both a X frame and torsion bar suspension. I am curious as to why they chose a X brace design when none of their previous pickups had it, not even back in the 1930s-1940s, and this particular configuration of chassis was dropped by all GM lines by 1961. Some say it was directly associated with the torsion bars. Problem with that claim is that the bars were anchored to a cross brace running between the side rails and not linked to the X. The rear trailing control arms were hooked to the X but were then connected to yet another cross brace in 1963 when the X member was dropped. So there is no immediate rational reasoning for the X frame associated with suspension.

Another says that the torsion bars were dropped due to patent infringement when Chrysler sued GM. That is an urban legend because there is no record of that ever taking place and the first generation front wheel drive Cadillac Eldorado and Oldsmobile Toranado used torsion bar suspension. And, the designs were different yet not unique because they have been in use on US and European cars since 1921. I have not even found a specific patent on Chrysler’s production torsion-aire.

One wonders if the design crew was a bit overzealous in designing the frame not knowing exactly what to expect and even though they claim it was 400 pounds lighter than with the conventional ladder type, cost factors was the real demise of the X and torsion suspension?

Who was in charge of design for the 1960-1966 style pickups? Who was the engineer that approved the X frame chassis and why was it chosen over a ladder frame?

Lastly, does anyone have a good high res scan of this particular ad that at least ran in Ward’s Automotive – Volume 22 of 1960, page 147 ? Or similar?

Any help is greatly appreciated!

[PoDuck]

From what I have been able to gather, the X frame, along with the boxed frame, gave the frame more strength. It was also said to be lighter.

They had to make it stronger because of the IFS.

Some people have speculated that they determined they didn't need to be so strong, so they later lost the boxing and the X.

My opinion is that it sucks for the most part, as far as trying to find parts for many things. Plus, rocks and debris like to hide in the boxed frame, which is no fun trying to remove.

My '62 does ride like it's on a cloud though, so as long as I'm driving it and not working on it, I can't complain too much.

[MusicMan70]

Regarding the torsion Bars, I pulled this message from "Jolly"s site and it mentions DeSoto as the original owner of the patent. You mentioned you were unable to find a mention of the patent so I'm subscribed to hear the real story...

Original Message-----
From: JDm Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 5:51 Pm Subject: Re: Torsion Bar
Torsion bars were a patent by the Chrysler Corp. If you remember correctly, a lot of Chrysler, Dodge, Plymouth products used them. Desoto exterminated with them in the mid 50s, and the patent was purchased from this dying company. When GM used them on their pickups, they broke a patent infringement. Gm hoped they would get by by altering the design. It didn't work, and GM had to pay a patent infringement fee. To keep using them they would have to pay Chrysler Corp an annual fee. GM thought it would be better to just drop them. So they went to coils. My father, who is now 78, remembers watching the news about the lawyer battle between the two and how it turning out. He has been an avid GMC pickup truck fan since his first pickup. His latest, and probably his last GMC is an 08 half ton of which he and I do the auction trips. GMC has lost a lot of the luster it had fifty plus years back, when it was the ICON of pickups. Still a good buy though. Nice web site, keep her up

[LVPhotos]

There was a 100 point restoration Corvette in the shop, 1962. Same frame but smaller. They bought all my pull offs. The generator and such. So from the Impala to Corvette and that 60-62 were the lowest trucks said Chevy was looking for a compromise for performance and handling. Growing up I helped in putting in torsion bar Volair clips... not long before a Mustang II was in the yard...ugly. Why? First clip. I cut up many Camero for a truck.
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[Huffstutler]

Originally Posted by MusicMan70

Regarding the torsion Bars, I pulled this message from "Jolly"s site and it mentions DeSoto as the original owner of the patent. You mentioned you were unable to find a mention of the patent so I'm subscribed to hear the real story...

This makes some sense but even if DeSoto had the patent, it would fall under the Chrysler umbrella. That said, the torsion bar setup was into play by 1956 for installation of the 1957 production year. Yet, I find no patent for this timeframe but I do find one filed in 1959 and approved in 1962 for Chrysler and the inventor is listed as Maurice D. Karlstad, Jr. (# 3027177) and stated it was an improvement of another design not used (#2972489) also registered by Karlstad and another person named John E. Collier. But it too was filed well after the suspension system was being used. GM also had various torsion suspension patents filed around 1959 as well.

Thing is that I did not find anything in newspapers about a patent infringement or lawsuit nor in archived law journals I have electronic access to. Was this a low key deal settled out of court? I need to look further but came up empty today. Has anyone found anything along those lines?

And it is known that the X was more stable and showed after it was removed for the 1963 model year by the way bed slide-in campers aligned up with the cab. But if it worked so well, why only use it 3 years?

[Brad54]

Originally Posted by Huffstutler

This makes some sense but even if DeSoto had the patent, it would fall under the Chrysler umbrella. That said, the torsion bar setup was into play by 1956 for installation of the 1957 production year. Yet, I find no patent for this timeframe but I do find one filed in 1959 and approved in 1962 for Chrysler and the inventor is listed as Maurice D. Karlstad, Jr. (# 3027177) and stated it was an improvement of another design not used (#2972489) also registered by Karlstad and another person named John E. Collier. But it too was filed well after the suspension system was being used. GM also had various torsion suspension patents filed around 1959 as well.

Thing is that I did not find anything in newspapers about a patent infringement or lawsuit nor in archived law journals I have electronic access to. Was this a low key deal settled out of court? I need to look further but came up empty today. Has anyone found anything along those lines?

And it is known that the X was more stable and showed after it was removed for the 1963 model year by the way bed slide-in campers aligned up with the cab. But if it worked so well, why only use it 3 years?

Bean counters.
Bean counters killed the Corvair... the original specs called for a lighter engine in the rear, but it ended up coming in a little heavy... I can't remember what exactly made the difference... but as a result, the balance of the car was off, leading to their reputation for spinning out.
A front sway bar would have solved the problem, and the engineers knew that, but the bean counters said "no."
It wasn't until a couple years into production that they finally put the sway bars on the cars, but by then Nader was making a name for himself.
-Brad

[aerotruk63]

1963 ladder style frame was 200lbs. lighter than the X frame due to tempering of the thinner steel.

[Huffstutler]

Originally Posted by aerotruk63

1963 ladder style frame was 200lbs. lighter than the X frame due to tempering of the thinner steel.

Do you have this ad? Any way of getting a good hi res scan of the frame part? Thanks.

Strange it says this one is 200 pounds lighter while when the X was in between 1960-1962, they advertised it was 400 pounds lighter than the previous ladder frame.

[aerotruk63]

I know there's a smaller picture of the frame above somewhere. My Laptop is refusingto save any scans. The poster above is about 32x44.

[aerotruk63]

[Huffstutler]

I have the frame charts in larger scale for the 1960-1962, thanks. I would like a larger scan of the middle birdseye view. Trying to see the frame without the X but with rear suspension in place :-)

Does the parts catalog have a similar shot of the 1960 style frame?

[aerotruk63]

I can check next week possibly. My Parts books are an hours drive from where I'm staying now.

[Huffstutler]

Originally Posted by aerotruk63

I can check next week possibly. My Parts books are an hours drive from where I'm staying now.

No problem, I just appreciate your helping!

[aerotruk63]

[Huffstutler]

I found this scan of the chassis... poor scan with the dots but thanks for looking.

I did find something else out today I did not know. The larger trucks also used the torsion bars and the 2 and 2-1/2 ton trucks over 175" wheelbase used a X brace too. Haven't seen a picture of an actual frame though.

[LostMy65]

It looks like some of the pics posted are now gone.
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