Crossover steering question

[argonaut]

Some thoughts on the subject of crossover vs factory steering setups:

Both crossover setups and factory setups apply a moment to the steering knuckle, regardless of the direction of travel of the drag link. So I don't see how either system can really have more bump steer than the other, simply due to one style vs the other. To me it has more to do with the relative lengths, and range of motion, of the linkages.

On the crossover steering kit I installed, the lever arm is actually longer (further from the ball joints / steering axis) on the crossover steering arm than a factory steering arm. This means that for a similar pitman lever arm length, there is less torque required at the steering box to apply a moment to the knuckles. However it also means that for a given rotation of the tire, it gives a larger input back to the steering gearbox. I suspect this is what would cause some people to feel that highway steering dynamics had been compromised by the crossover.

Crossover steering exerts a component force that wants to push and pull the axle from side to side with respect to the frame. Conventional factory steering exerts a component for that wants to push and pull the left side of the axle forward and backward along the frame. These two systems have different effects on the chassis and suspension components, namely the frame and the leaf springs.

The length of the crossover drag link is much longer that the factory drag link so total working angle on the crossover link should be less. However, if you look at the ratio of length change of the drag link vs the associated suspension linkage in the plane parallel to the ground, as wilkin250r did above, there may not be much difference between the two.

I think that it is hard to have a general discussion like this about crossover vs non. The steering characteristics of different setup are also largely affected by: caster angle, trail, scrub radius, lever arm lengths, etc. And all of these are affected by tire diameter, width and wheel offset, which most "offroad" trucks have working against them.

I personally chose to use a crossover steering system because at the that time in my build I was planning on lots of suspension travel and the crossover seemed to give better working angle for the linkages over a wider range of suspension motion. Also, my F*ord Bronco uses a crossover setup from the factory and it has worked well for me without any crazy bumpsteer or death wobble characteristics that keep me from driving it daily.

I do agree with Larry that there is a lot of (internet discussion driven) hype about some upgrades such as the crossover steering. Also keep in mind that people selling the kit, like it or not, are in the business to make money. So it should be a surprise that the usefulness of the kit might be slightly overly optimistic when described to the customer.

[obijuan]

i like mine.

scared to hear what yall say about hydro assist. sheesh.

[Spicer]

Originally Posted by obijuan

i like mine.

scared to hear what yall say about hydro assist. sheesh.

sheesh...

[wilkin250r]

Personally, I think crossover steering is great, but I may not be able to speak since I'm not actually using it, my old Chevy is using the stock steering setup. I think crossover steering is better in every respect except bumpsteer, and I don't even think that's a serious issue.

In short, bumpsteer is caused when the suspension and the steering components are moving in different ways, so they never move exactly equally. The stock GM system, however, is moving almost exactly equally with the suspension, so very little bumpsteer.

But that certainly doesn't mean the stock GM system is the strongest, or perform the best under articulation, or the least susceptible to death wobble, and it certainly doesn't mean it's the best setup overall.

[SunSoaked]

I'm putting hydroboost on my 69?

[379redneck]

Can I take the ball joints out of my 10 bolt knuckles and put them in the 44 knuckles?
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[Spicer]

Originally Posted by 379redneck

Can I take the ball joints out of my 10 bolt knuckles and put them in the 44 knuckles?
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Yes same part from 1972 Dana 44 all the way to a 1991 10 bolt...
upper ball joint is not the same as the lower ball joint, but from axle to axle they are the same... This is on GMC, Chevy's, Scout's Dana 44s

[379redneck]

Ok thanks
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[379redneck]

Another quick question. Are the spindles from the Dana 44 and the 10 bolt the same? I put the knuckles on the Dana spindle and my old dust shield and rotor and the rotor is tubing the dust shield, which it never did before. I want to use the Dana spindles because my bearings actually fit them and don't need to be forced on like they did before
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[Spicer]

Originally Posted by 379redneck

Another quick question. Are the spindles from the Dana 44 and the 10 bolt the same? I put the knuckles on the Dana spindle and my old dust shield and rotor and the rotor is tubing the dust shield, which it never did before. I want to use the Dana spindles because my bearings actually fit them and don't need to be forced on like they did before
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Well the ball joint part in it self is the same from 10 bolt to Dana 44, and the knuckles will accept the spindles from a 10 bolt or a Dana 44, and the knuckles fit the Dana or 10 bolt, But the steering pieces might be different? Now the spindles from a Dana 44 1/2 ton (6-lug) are different than all 10 bolt spindles, the inner bearing is bigger on the 10 bolt, now the Dana 44 3/4 ton spindle is the same as all 10 bolts spindles. I know some 3/4 ton 4X4s came with a Dana 44 housing but had outside 10 bolt brakes and hubs and maybe spindles in the 1977 model year most likely late 77. as for 1/2 ton models this may be the case as well. I beleive the first year for the 10 bolt axle complete is 1978
Bottom line is the 10 bolt 1/2 ton (6-lug) hubs and spindles are stronger and better IMO, easier to find as they came on every GM truck K10, K20 models from 1978 to 1987, and Suburban and Blazers all the way to 1991 models. I'm not sure what axle you have, K 10 or K20 but if you are running a Dana 44 1/2 ton and you have 10 bolt outer parts you are heading in the right direction. The dust shields are a little different from early models to later models just because the one is a 1 piece and the other is a 2 piece, (pieces are welded) Knuckle, then spindle, then dust/caliper bracket and bolts in that order. Do you have any pictures?

[379redneck]

I got it together but thanks. The spindles were different and there was a tab in the back of the dust shield that I had to cut off. I ended up ising the bearings and spindles of my friends rear that was at the garage.
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[379redneck]

No death wobble with the crossover and no stabilizer, at least not now that I tightened up the u bolts that were very loose. It does have bump steer tho so what should I do to put a stabilizer on it. I'm using the Dana tie rods so the hole for the stabilizer is to the left of the mount on the axle. Would I just have to get a dual stabilizer kit? My other question is if its wrong that the draglink hits the right leaf spring when the right side of the truck drops. Did I do something wrong or is this normal?
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[wilkin250r]

Where did you purchase the crossover steering kit from?

[DirtyLarry]

Originally Posted by 379redneck

It does have bump steer tho so what should I do to put a stabilizer on it. Posted via Mobile Device

What? Really, bump steer? Why, I never head of that after doing crossover steering swap.

That was my point all along, every truck I’ve seen converted to crossover steering ends up with noticeable bump steer. Some more noticeable than others but they all have it to a certain degree, which is exactly why I did not do crossover on any of my rigs. Crossover is perfect for a dedicated trail rig but maybe not so much on something that rides the highways a lot too. Not sure there is much you can do to make it go away.

[379redneck]

I think the reason for the bump steer is the fact that I'm not running a stabilizer, and I have always on the truck til now. The kit is from offroad design
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[Orange Crate]

If a new cross over drag link is not parallel to the ground you can get "bump steer" (steering wheel moves left or right in your hands when the suspension moves or if you hold the steering wheel in one place the wheels "steer"). You have to use a dropped pitman arm and even a block to raise the steering arm at your steering knuckle to get the drag link parallel, if you have any angle to your drag link it will bump steer some. The radius from (the pitman arm of the drag link) to the steering arm changes length (because it is a circle) as the suspension moves up or down. The amount of unwanted steer depends on the length of the radius (drag link) and the amount of suspension movement up or down. I think that the reason some have it more that others does depend on the amount of lift and how much money is spent on getting the drag link parallel to the ground. Cross over steering definitely has advantages off road but the unwanted steering at that time is not noticeable. I just put a Dana 60 under my 72 and I am thinking about using cross over because of the same reasons stated here, all my current TREs are worn and I will see some off road time.

[argonaut]

After looking over my crossover installation today, and comparing to the stock steering linkages, I now see what should have been obvious: That bump steer will almost always be worse on a crossover setup than a factory on (very high lifts excluded).

I guess I'll see how I feel about mine once I start driving it. Good thing I always save all my old parts until the new ones are tested. I can easily go back to a stock steering setup if I decide to!

Also, DirtyLarry is a wise man.

That is all.

[379redneck]

What alignment specs should a shop go by to do an alignment on the crossover setup? I need one bad and talked to the manager at my work today and he said he can't do it without now what specs it needs since its a custom setup. My truck is and 87 3/4 ton and the truck I got the knuckles from was a 74 k20
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[argonaut]

On a solid axle the caster and camber are not adjustable (without cutting and welding) so all you really need is to zero the toe. Unless you can somehow tune the Ackerman effect slightly with a little toe in or out.
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[379redneck]

Ok I will have to talk to him again, he probably doesn't realize it's a solid axle truck. What is the Ackerman effect?
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[wilkin250r]

Ok, so the reason for a differential is because when you turn, the outside wheel travels further than the inside wheel, right? So the wheels need to be able to spin at different speeds.

The Ackerman effect is basically the next step. If you are steering, and the outside wheel is traveling further than the inside wheel, then the two wheels aren't tracing along the same circle, right. Therefore, they should not be angled the same amount.

The Ackerman effect will be built into the geometry of the steering components, I don't think it's an issue you need to worry about.

[379redneck]

Ok I get it. Thanks
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[hiway]

No expert here but 86 model with D60/14 combo, 6" kit, and crossover with 2wd box.
35's and steers great...16x9 M/T wheels. Personal experience....really offset wheels contribe to the wobble.

[379redneck]

The death wobble was because my u-bolts on the axle were extremely loose. I tightened them up and it hasn't done it since
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[BIG V]

Wow ive heard this discussion over and over.
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