Building a 6.0

[Twiz]

So, I'm looking to build a 6.0, can find a motor for around $1000. I want to build this thing as big as I can but keep it drivable. I've been doing a ton of research on this and know that a good cam and turbo can open up any ls motor. I have also read that if I want to cam it I need to swap the intake. I want to start my build with the cam and turbo combo and as I save money slowly work into the other parts, crank, pistons, things like that. But I don't want to buy a mild cam just to upgrade to a more aggressive one later once I upgrade other parts. So I'm looking for a good list of parts in the order I can install them.

My question is do I have to swap the intake for a cam? and what would some of you guys recommend for a somewhat of a budget build for this?

And because I know someone is going to ask I want to build the motor to drag race with in my 68 C10.

[mongocanfly]

For all your wanting to do your budget build budget better be sizeable..they say the truck intake flows as good as anything out there..if your wanting something other than factory the holley intakes do very well
I'm sure you may know this but my lq9 6.0 turns 345hp stock and my ls3 turns 426hp stock..neither are slouches..I know your drag racing so you can never have enough hp..haha..I'm not sure I would give 1000 for something that needs rebuilt..unless your buying a complete running engine then that price isn't bad

[Twiz]

It's around $1000 for a complete (totaled) truck or van. I wont buy it if it's not running. I primarily only want the motor and trans, 4l80e, for this build. It's out of an auction website, so I can find a wrecked truck or van and buy it, and tow it home.

And if the factory truck intake will work, then that's what I'm going with. At least until I save enough to replace it. Like I said, I want to start with the cam and turbo. And I only want to spend the money once. I don't foresee being able to do the turbo right off the bat though, after pricing out cams.

[Overdriven]

Lookup Sloppymechanics on YouTube. Watch some videos and check out his other resources/webpages for more turbo LS info. He lays it all out pretty well what you can expect to get out of a combo and what you need to feed it. Quick summary for you though, he runs a stock bottom end Gen4 6.0, stock heads, stock truck intake, .660 capable valve springs with a 236/236 cam and has gotten 1000whp out of it.

Just my opinion, put a cam and springs in it first. Forget about changing the intake, unless you go with a high rise intake you'll need to mess with or replace the front the drive acc costing you more $. Plus the truck intakes flow, especially with a turbo. Forget about building the bottom end, especially if it's Gen4. Just open up the ring gaps a bit and limit how much boost you throw at it. Spend your $ on a turbo and converter instead, build the bottom end later if you end up wanting that much more power.

[mongocanfly]

And then there's always this..
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-...g-bang-theory/

[Overdriven]

Originally Posted by mongocanfly

And then there's always this..
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-...g-bang-theory/

I remember reading that article in print, didn't think to go searching for it. Either way there's plenty of people out there making 700+whp reliably on the stock bottom end, stock heads and stock truck intake. It's basically become a matter of making sure you have enough injector and fuel pump to feed your combo.

That and finding a good tuner. A good tuner is especially important if running a stock computer as there's so many tables that can effect the tune. Plus from what I hear the higher you push the more unpredictable the stock ecu can get if you or your tuner aren't familiar with pushing them that far. No idea what power level that is exactly but there aren't too many 800+whp stock computer vehicles. That probably in part due to those at that power level wanting other features included like trans bump box, antilag, etc.

[zach_carver]

Replacing the intake is not neccessary unless you just want to. Id add cam and all valvetrain from Brian tooley racing, and get good heads or add good boost heads if you plan to turbo. BTR makes good boost cams also. Just depends what you plan to do with it and how much power you want. Heads/Cam 6.0 will be alot of fun in a C10!

[NC_John]

Originally Posted by Overdriven

Either way there's plenty of people out there making 700+whp reliably on the stock bottom end, stock heads and stock truck intake.

I hear that all time time but have yet to see any. You can boost or spray a stock ls and make a ton of power but it wont stay together long. They even say in the last paragraph of the story that the longevity of their build is questionable. Any real, reliable power (500+ hp) with a lifespan of more than a season is going to require serious upgrades which requires cubic cash.

[ebaccm26]

Originally Posted by NC_John

I hear that all time time but have yet to see any.

If you've yet to see any you must not be looking. I see one everyday in my garage.

[NC_John]

Originally Posted by ebaccm26

If you've yet to see any you must not be looking. I see one everyday in my garage.

Well, it is true I don't get out much. What's your build?

[ebaccm26]

Originally Posted by NC_John

Well, it is true I don't get out much. What's your build?

Stock 5.3 truck motor with cam, valve springs, and eBay turbo. I won't get into it too much here because it's in a Ford truck

[mongocanfly]

A 5.3 is a 5.3..even if its in a fudd...haha..are you estimating hp or do you have dyno numbers?...just curious...

[NC_John]

Originally Posted by ebaccm26

Stock 5.3 truck motor with cam, valve springs, and eBay turbo. I won't get into it too much here because it's in a Ford truck

Ahhh.... it's s sloppy mechanics build. Lol. I was going to go that route too but can't find decent running engines for $300 like they seem to and it's honestly too much work putting them in and out.

I got persuaded (quite easily) into building a full road course spec (trans am series/Daytona prototype stuff) engine. It'll last forever on the street but it's costing me a fortune.
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[NC_John]

Originally Posted by Twiz

So, I'm looking to build a 6.0, can find a motor for around $1000. I want to build this thing as big as I can but keep it drivable. I've been doing a ton of research on this and know that a good cam and turbo can open up any ls motor. I have also read that if I want to cam it I need to swap the intake. I want to start my build with the cam and turbo combo and as I save money slowly work into the other parts, crank, pistons, things like that. But I don't want to buy a mild cam just to upgrade to a more aggressive one later once I upgrade other parts. So I'm looking for a good list of parts in the order I can install them.

My question is do I have to swap the intake for a cam? and what would some of you guys recommend for a somewhat of a budget build for this?

And because I know someone is going to ask I want to build the motor to drag race with in my 68 C10.

Have you been on ls1tech.com? Hit the forums there. Guys are asking the same question daily.
Posted via Mobile Device

[sprint_9]

Originally Posted by NC_John

I got persuaded (quite easily) into building a full road course spec (trans am series/Daytona prototype stuff) engine. It'll last forever on the street but it's costing me a fortune.
Posted via Mobile Device

Do you have a build thread on that, it would be cool to see.

[NC_John]

Originally Posted by sprint_9

Do you have a build thread on that, it would be cool to see.

Its in my sig. Last last page or two has been the new engine build. Everything going in the engine is the same as my builder/shop uses for the 1,000 hp stuff. We're just going wayyyy smaller on the cam. 1,000 hp stuff gets torn down constantly. I dont want to do this again for a long time.

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by Overdriven

Either way there's plenty of people out there making 700+whp reliably on the stock bottom end, stock heads and stock truck intake. It's basically become a matter of making sure you have enough injector and fuel pump to feed your combo.

This is going to be long...and I already have a headache.

GenIII blocks find their shortcomings at about 650whp, no matter what power adder your running..and n/a is out of the question. Depending how "stock" we're talking and whether or not things like ARP hardware, aftermarket gaskets are being used, you're gonna hit issues with things like; weak rod bolts, pushing water, valvetrain issues, and of course ring gap problems. Even if its running SD, you still are limited by the 87mm throttle inlet on the tb and intake.

GenIV stuff is still taxing stock iron blocks at around 700, but you gain the extra headroom with the L92/squareport heads and the GenIV truck intakes. Tradeoff is having he DOD/AFM stuff to deal with.

You've got 3 options to make the power, 3.5 if your separating blower types. You can either go turbo, procharger, or eaton/maggie....or nitrous.
Yes, you can make 700whp on a stock ass motor and a big shot our a couple of small kits. Guys make race b!tch motors all the time and do it...but they aren't designed to live. Assuming its got a decent exhaust, your still having to hit it with 3-400 in juice. You can totally run a stock motor and do it...but while it is semi predictable, its not a reliable "build it and leave it" motor. Its gonna eat plugs, and the actual hit from the nitrous is the most violent power adder.

If your going turbo, then ring gap is where your motor dies. If they have age on them and don't pinch, or are gapped, great...then you run into the amount of boost you need to overcome the natural restriction on the I/H/C. Its either going to lag, or have heat issues. So now you've got to go about running a larger IC, going a2w, or using n20 or meth to cool. So you might end up with a 1-run heat soak special, or a car that NEEDS to run off a bump because it takes so long to spool.

Blower, same deal with ring gap and heat..except that you have less cooling options, and the physical size and displacement limitations of the blower itself. You can cheat having a boost cam in the turbo setup, but to make the power on the blower, you're going to be at a disadvantage not having a blower cam. Again it means more boost and heat, and potentially a difficult to use powerband.

ANY of these options is going to be subject to the limitations of things like valve springs...depending on exactly how "stock" we are talking about.

Originally Posted by Overdriven

A good tuner is especially important if running a stock computer as there's so many tables that can effect the tune. Plus from what I hear the higher you push the more unpredictable the stock ecu can get if you or your tuner aren't familiar with pushing them that far. No idea what power level that is exactly but there aren't too many 800+whp stock computer vehicles. That probably in part due to those at that power level wanting other features included like trans bump box, antilag, etc.

This part...I just don't know what to do with.
Yes, a good tuner is insanely important. But it has nothing to do with running a "stock" computer. Yes there are lots of tables and I mean, EVERY table effects the tune...thats what a tune is.
As with my other comments, this is slightly dependent on exactly which version we discuss. There is nothing unpredictable about any of the stock computers, the OE hardware is incredibly stable. The OEM software is very conservative, but also very stable. Additionally, every aftermarket OS we've ever used versions of (including pre-release Alphas and Beta's we get from HP Tuners) have been virtually flawless in terms of actual stability.

And...there are all sorts of 800+hp factory computer vehicles...regardless of generation. There are cars running fully built motors, crazy boost, and OEM hardware with good tuning. GenIII has the fewest features but has no problem supporting the power levels. GenIV gained resolution and function, allowing for more delicate control. GenV stuff has turbo/supercharger tables built in, even if you don't need them for the sake of versatility, and is an INCREDIBLY robust setup on E92A ecms.

The only time aftermarket ECM systems are worth discussing is when you start running combo's that defy the control logic on the factory ECM. The huge cubic inch aftermarket block LS motors flow so much air that factory ECM's just don't have the range to account for those numbers, or don't have a compatible sensor and table to accurately measure it. A boosted car running over 3bar would also be something that creates issues for stock ECM's, many of which hit limits at that point in their MAP(s). Or for example a setup that needed direct ECM control of more than 8 injectors (fully independent) or a mix of fuel systems on one control system. At that point your talking about full race control and monitoring systems, which don't even work like factory ECMs and require constant logging and tweaking to function.

[Overdriven]

@NC_John I'm just going by what people claim on the internet. I take it with a grain of salt of course but I've seen enough claims of people driving stock bottom end GenIV turbo LS 5k-10k miles with a bunch of drag strip passes and somewhere in the neighborhood of 700whp without issue to be comfortable with building something similar in the near future. It would be great to have longer term assessment but that's not always available. My personal goal is 600-650whp and I'll be sure to plaster the internet as best I can with the results.

@BR3W_CITY If you had a headache why type so much? Lol. But seriously you sound like you're talking down to me in that post. If you have experience then share what you've seen without the "ugh what are you talking about noob" attitude. I'll admit I'm a noob with ecu's and I was basically regurgitating based on mental notes in my head. I forget the specifics but somewhere on the internet I came across several cases of almost quad digit HP levels and the stock ecu would do something unexpected and need to be spoofed or have a total left field adjustment made to the tune to prevent the unexpected behavior. Whether the unexpected behavior was the result of going outside the stock ecu capabilities as you said or less than stellar tuning know how is unknown to this noob. I just regurgitated it. Thanks for sharing your knowledge though, I generally enjoy your posts.

[NC_John]

Originally Posted by Overdriven

@NC_John I'm just going by what people claim on the internet. I take it with a grain of salt of course but I've seen enough claims of people driving stock bottom end GenIV turbo LS 5k-10k miles with a bunch of drag strip passes and somewhere in the neighborhood of 700whp without issue to be comfortable with building something similar in the near future. It would be great to have longer term assessment but that's not always available. My personal goal is 600-650whp and I'll be sure to plaster the internet as best I can with the reults

My target is over 500 hp at the rear wheels. I'm not sure any more will be of much use in a pickup truck but it will only be a cam swap away. I did keep my set of 317 heads so if i want to boost it later I can. Right now its going to stay naturally aspirated.

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by Overdriven

@BR3W_CITY If you had a headache why type so much? Lol. But seriously you sound like you're talking down to me in that post. If you have experience then share what you've seen without the "ugh what are you talking about noob" attitude. I'll admit I'm a noob with ecu's and I was basically regurgitating based on mental notes in my head. I forget the specifics but somewhere on the internet I came across several cases of almost quad digit HP levels and the stock ecu would do something unexpected and need to be spoofed or have a total left field adjustment made to the tune to prevent the unexpected behavior. Whether the unexpected behavior was the result of going outside the stock ecu capabilities as you said or less than stellar tuning know how is unknown to this noob. I just regurgitated it. Thanks for sharing your knowledge though, I generally enjoy your posts.

There is a fine line between talking down to someone, and quelling BS. I have no problem with opinions, or interpretations of information, but saying "there aren't many 800whp cars on stock ECU's" isn't an opinion, its just a rather baseless statement. And that type of statement gets an eyeroll, it just does.

Now, as for the quad digit power thing, again, give me a specific motor or ECU in question. I see 4 digit cars multiple times per week, on pretty much every ECM config. If there are "tuners" having problems with big power, its probably on GenIV stuff because they don't understand VVE/GMVE, or on GenV because they don't know how DI works. Any forms of spoofing or fooling sensors is hackery unless its a temporary fix (or I guess if your working on pre-OBD stuff where MAF clamps etc are the only option).

Its fine that you don't have experience with high HP tuning, I'm spoiled because I get direct access to top tier stuff, which itself is a fluke solely because my partner is an oem ECM calibration engineer. I wouldn't have a clue where to have started years ago if I couldn't just walk down the hall or make a call and get any information I needed.
Just be hesitant to repeat information without any real base. Its great to learn, and there's insane amounts of info out there. Second guess/source your sources, look at a variety of info and you'll be able to put it together as you build your knowledge base (if its something you're curious about). Its probably easier to focus on one ECM/Gen and learn it, like GenIII to start...and then take what you know and work up through increasing complications on GenIV and GenV stuff.

Am I harsh about it? Possibly. Don't take it personally tho.