Bad transaction with "insanebehavior" : update matter resolved

[shifty]

I loathe the day I would ever need to post a "bad dealing" about another forum member, but this weekend takes the cake, and I'm out $500, so ... here goes.

insanebehavior, showed up at the 67-72 forum in the past few weeks and started posting pictures of his seriously kickass projects

(note to self: just b/c someone works on projects that look cool on the internet DOES NOT mean they are a cool, reasonable, or honest person)

So, one of the pictures he shared was of a "powdercoated C10 frame with ART rear suspension". He said he was planning to hack it up so he could install a step-notch in the rear, if you do a search on the guy, you can see a couple of diff't places he mentions this - it seemed totally crazy to me (should have been a sign), so I asked him if he wanted to swap frames with me (my virgin frame + cash for his complete frame), rather than hack up his current frame that he put a couple thousand into already.

"It seems like a mutually beneficial deal," I told him. He agreed.

We talked on the phone, he sent some blurry pictures using his iPhone, told me it was notched in the front for the PorterBuilt DropMember he'd bought, and I said, "this is ok, just leave the notch there, I may use it later". We settled on a price of $2,000 (plus my frame, in trade). I asked for some more pictures (less blurry), and asked again that he DID NOT patch up the front notch to get it "back to stock" after he suggested he wanted to (this is important later).

Saturday morning, I rented a friend's truck and trailer in exchange for buying a new $130 hitch for it, I loaded up my (virgin, spotless, never-been-wrecked-or-hacked) frame and headed to FL on this past Saturday morning. Got into town and we made plans to meet. Made it to his place early the next morning, we unloaded my frame and started pulling the front steering and drivetrain mounts to swap them to his frame while he worked on his insanely nice '64 Chevelle.

When I was trying to swap over the idler arm and steering linkage, I noticed that he went ahead and patched the front notch and had the frame repainted, even though I asked him not to TWICE. Unfortunately, the patch deleted one of the two required holes for the idler arm support, so I couldn't even bolt up my idler arm to the frame completely. He asked me to just bolt one side up so we could look at it; when we did, it just wouldn't sit straight, and while eyeballing things, no matter how we bent it, we couldn't get the center link to sit straight in relation to the front crossmember, which suggests to me that the frame was out of whack in the front (wreck?) because everything else was straight.

He prompted me to "drill the hole in approximately the right location and shim the idler arm mount with some washers". I told him I thought this was ghetto-rigging it, I plan on showing the truck and can't have crap like that on it - not to mention, this is a HUGE safety concern for me. You don't just rig up crap to make it "fit", there are longer-term consequences to think about.

I explained to him that this problem was a dealbreaker for me - I only have 3mm of clearance between the center link and GenIII oilpan as it is, so this this has HUGE potential to be a problem for me requiring more fabrication than I was comfortable with at the price he was asking. For me, I didn't feel like I could justify the $325 in gas to drive down/back, then another $2,000 on a pre-painted frame that I couldn't use - or that would require me to figure out alignment and possibly notch the my crossmember or oil pan over.

While coming to this decision, I looked over the frame, and noticed a few other things he neglected to tell me about it while in conversation (he'd expressed it was "mint"):

• The frame had a 1" crack or tear on the passenger side about 4" behind the front crossmember
  
• The frame had several "aftermarket" holes drilled or blown through it (look like torch/plasma holes)
  
• The front passenger framehorn had been welded up to patch something (from wreck, I assume)
  
• The frame was out out of "true" diagonally on the front framehorns by at least an inch
  
• There were a few key parts I would need to drill or grind off the frame to make my LS1/T56 fit and still use stock parts like e-Brake and hydraulics (clutch provision, auto tranny provision, etc.) More work for me. we explicitly discussed the absense of these items on my frame
  
• The frame was excessively rippled in a couple of spots (probably from previous wreck(s))
  
• Someone left dead hardware bolted to the frame in at least one place - a nut and bolt with a star washer right next to where the idler arm bolts up -I couldn't understand what kind of a hack would leave this stuff on after sandblasting and actually powdercoat it into the frame (?!?!!) This was one of a few things I noticed that were out of whack.
  
• The "patch" for the notch looked like a hack-job, as if someone bondo'd up the inside, then painted over it.
  
• There was a lot of leftover sand or other debris that was sitting in various places on the frame which got painted over - very rough finish in those spots. I couldn't tell if the frame was powdercoated or painted, although it was clear it was painted recently, because he offered me a "matching can of paint" to go with the frame.
  

At that point, I told him, "Look...I can't justify this purchase. Too much work for me to do for something you said was already perfect, and I can't risk the steering problems it's looking like I'll have. It's too big of a risk on my side."

Of course, he was pissed. He blew up and jumped my ass talking about "this is what is wrong with the young people today", and "this leaves a really bad taste in my mouth". "We had a deal, you sealed it, and I put money to get my welding guy and body guy in here to fix that notch and repaint the frame. I'm out $200-300!!"

I felt this wasn't fair - if he would have listened to me when I said, "DON'T patch the notch!", he would have been out no money at all, and we could walk away cordially, albeit I would be out $325 (for gas ... not to mention the 16 hours of my life I can't get back), but ... at least with a sliver of pride.

He was overly persistent about me paying for the work that he "did for me". I'm thinking to myself...I didn't put a gun to his head for crying out loud! In fact, I asked him NOT to do it!! Since this is the main source for our impasse, it's his fault, right?

He told me I need to "take responsibility for my actions and the deal *I* made with *HIM*". I'm confused - why wasn't he taking responsibility for his own actions and owning up to installing the patch that caused our issues?

I explained to him very nicely that:

A) I asked him twice NOT to do that work that cost him the money he was complaining about.

B) I am already out $325 in gas when this is all done, and an entire weekend away from home, on the road.

C) There is stuff here he didn't tell me about the frame, and I could have never known because he didn't provide any additional pictures for me to see - he assured me the frame was "mint", and I trusted him because he was a forum member, and my dozens of forum transactions have always been good.

He didn't want to hear it.

I told him, "Look...I am a stand-up guy and have that reputation on the truck forum and in real life. I feel bad you're out, I can empathize, I am out money here too. If I wasn't serious about buying, I wouldn't have my frame here, I wouldn't have $2,000 in my back pocket, and we wouldn't be talking right now. If you really feel that slighted, and you feel like you're out that much, I'll leave you $100 cash right here for your time. This is me meeting your halfway on the work you had done "for me", even though I explicitly asked you twice NOT to do it."

He absolutely refused and said I needed to pay him the full $300-400 to "make this right" before I leave. (The number suddenly increased?)

I told him this wasn't at all fair. So, now I'm not leaving his property until I give him at least half, which is $200? A friend of his showed up to finish the purchase of his lifted yellow C10 off of him - up to this point, nobody else was nearby. This could have been a blessing in disguise (thank you, Lord)

After a lot of him telling me I was "so wrong" and needed to "own up and take responsibility", I was getting a bit concerned at this point, because I am outnumbered, I am feeling threatened, my truck, trailer and frame are all in his shop on his property - He had me by the balls.

So, I told him the most I would be comfortable giving him for his time and shop space is $150, which was half of the $200-300 amount he initially said he invested in the repair. He still refused. Finally, I said, "Look. $175 and I'm out of here." He got pissed, said "Fine, leave it on the table here, load up your crap and get the hell out of here".

I left the money on the table (a $100, $50, $20 and $5 bill, to be exact) and packed my stuff to leave. He put a motor mount on top of it (?) and walked over to ***** about the incident to his buddy (grossly exagerating what happened in his favor, as he would probably do here).

Thankfully - and probably the only stand-up thing that happened (thanks, Scott, wherever you are) they eventually came over and helped me roll my frame onto my trailer, and left to do some transaction related to the sale of his lifte C10 (on sunday?).

I admit, he apologized for blowing up on me before leaving, which I found strange, but it was the Christian thing to do, and I appreciate that. It doesn't get me the frame I was expecting, NOR does it get me the $175 I gave up just to get out of there.

I packed up. I put all of his tools away that I used - because I would expect anyone else to do the same for me, regardless the circumstances...that is the kinda guy I am, and how my parents brought me up. I spooled up his compressor line and placed all of the pneumatic tools I was using on the table next to the $175 cash. I hopped in my truck and took off, headed for home, an 8-hour drive, empty-handed, complete waste of a trip, and feeling completely and totally freaking ripped off. 16 hours wasted. $325 in gas. $175 in "make-nice" money. $130 for a trailer hitch in exchange for borrowing a truck and trailer.

I called him as I was headed out, he wasn't back yet. I told him I put away everything, spooled up all of the hoses and cords, and left any tools I couldn't find a place for on the table, next to the money (which was there when I left).

He calls back 20 mins later and asks me, "Where's that money you left?"

I tell him it's on the table, next to the pneumatic tools. He tells me he's going to look out on the driveway, it must have "blown away" (yet it was under a motor mount he put on it?).

I ask him, "Are you trying to screw with me?"

He says "No, not screwing with you, it's not here. Maybe my brother is messing with me, hold on, let me go ask. I'll call you back."

He calls back and says his brother said he didn't do it. I can't tell if either he is screwing with me, someone over there is screwing with him, or what the hell is going on. I think he's trying to get me for the full $350 he finally tried to say he spent, but ... I could've gotten my entire frame sandblasted and powdercoated for that kind of money. Hell, I could have bought a new frame for less.

I do not know what to do about this situation, but I've been effectively called a liar, and the guy was harassing me about the money - I got a PM from him about 12 hours ago saying he still couldn't find the money. He just emailed me to boot - and this is after three phone calls on Sunday evening while driving home.

With God as my witness, I left this guy the money. I'll be honest - Deep inside I really regret leaving him anything...I left the cash because of concern for my personal safety, cooperation, and because he genuinely made me feel like a piece of crap while I was there, which is something nobody should ever need to go through.

[EDIT] He just dropped a line, the money turned up in his lock box, so this has been cleared up. Apparently the maintenance guy stopped by, saw it, and locked it up.

So, I'm out $500 at this point because of this deal gone bad, and he's out ... nothing, from what I can tell - I could have bagged and notched my truck for $500 (w/o compressor or tank), so now I *REALLY* felt like crap because I just blew away 25% of my entire buildup budget and have nothing to show but a dent in my pride and self esteem.


Just know - I got shafted and was put in a really uncomfortable spot - I'm afraid it could happen to others.

Moreover, I just want everyone else to see this - do you think it's fair? What would you have done?

Bottom line:

• If he would have listened to me about not welding that stupid patch, he would have been out ZERO dollars and he couldn't have gotten pissed about much of anything
  
• His decision to ignore my request and proceed with patching the frame is both the source for my not wanting to buy it, AND the source for him being out of pocket, and subsequently me being even MORE out of pocket ($500 instead of just $325).
  
• I left him money, and now he's trying to stalk me with hopes for another $175 because now "he can't find it"? His property is well isolated and there were other people at the house when I left. I know, I know ... "blame the new guy", right?
  
• He did not disclose (what I feel) are important details about the condition of the frame, which made it worth a lot less than the asking price, IMHO. You can take a crappy frame, throw a $1700 Air Ride Tech suspension on it, and that doesn't necessarily make it worth $2k + trade.

Be aware.

And Mark, if you're reading this - think long and hard, because you know what I've posted here is 100% accurate. I DID NOT take your money - you DID take my money, however.

[EDIT] Since the time of this post, I've received an email from Mark trying to clear the air. I appreciate the gesture. This entire deal could have been a matter of "miscommunication", but I took the time to post this, so unless a moderator or admin pulls it down, it's sticking just in case someone else deals with crap like this from EITHER him or me.