looking at a suburban

[jmack91z28]

Originally Posted by kwin

I never said they were in the same league, they are less powerful have significantly less weight. They still have good power potential but more importantly they are cheap to operate and last forever ( don't know of any small blocks that have a reputation for 1000000 miles). Don't know of any small blocks that can run on wvo and save the owner a fortune either.
There are a few 4bts in Grand Wagoneers that I have heard good reviews of.
I still stand by my statement that there is good value in this Suburban and almost no risk.
The differences in the 4bt vs 6bt are documented, still a good deal!

There are many small blocks that have documented a million miles.

A gasser can't run on wvo, not really a fair comparison. Diesel can't crank on wvo, the engine has to be up to temp to run it. Most people can only use that stuff on long road trips efficiently. That whole WVO deal has been around for decades, there's a reason anyone hardly uses it.

But there is no arguing that a diesel puts out more power than a gasser. No arguing they are far more efficient per gallon of fuel. Biggest downside to diesels are parts costs and availability.

In my opinion, buying this truck would have very high risk involved. Especially with the previous owner having little to no knowledge on the build.

[cal30_sniper]

Originally Posted by jmack91z28

In my opinion, buying this truck would have very high risk involved. Especially with the previous owner having little to no knowledge on the build.

This is rapidly turning into a gas vs diesel debate, which is not what we want to have here. There are many positive points to both, which is why there are many trucks out there using both. However, you almost never see 4BTs in full size trucks. There's a reason for that.

What jmack said above is simply the case. Projects like this are usually real disasters that the owner finally realizes are hopeless and try to shove off on somebody else. There's a good chance that 4BT is garbage. It definitely isn't complete. If you can't get receipts, you have no idea what's been done or who did it. I'd also be terrified of that body work. Fresh primer: there's no telling what's hiding under there.

If you can get it for 2k, and you are already planning on a long and involved process to get it running, it might be worth it. I personally wouldn't pay more than 1k for it. There's too many original unmolested burbs out there for low prices still. It's probably going to be much easier to put a gas motor in there, than to scrounge up the parts necessary to get that 4BT running. You'll definitely be more satisfied with the result. If you want to get crazy with it, put in a 6BT. For the amount of effort involved, the 4BT is going to be a waste of time.

-cal30sniper

[sbc383rulz]

i dont agree with the 6bt statement, those axles were never desgined for that weight or torque. the 1st gen dodge cummins had a hd dana 70 and were known for breaking them.

im not debating gas vs diesel im debating that a low horse diesel engine is not comparable in any way with a low horse gas engine.

i do agree that the engine is a little scary being as it looks like a ag/gen set engine. i think it would be worth a look, the body work would scare me too which is why there are many tricks to check that if you ask the right people or ask a reputable body shop to look at it.

diesel are only expensive to work on if you do a complete rebuild, yes a full rebuild if done yourself can be about $3000. that 4bt if driven normally (meaning not overrevved or lugged way down) will last on average 3 times as long as a small block.

you cant say that there are plenty of un molested suburbans around to build because while that may be the case where you are it isnt everywhere, good suburbans around here are hard to find and you pay alot for them because 4wds typically get wheeled and the 2wds have already been scrapped with bad transmissions.

the whole point i was debating from the beginning is that i dont think a mildy tuned 4bt in this truck would be that bad of a driver, unless you plan on towing something over #1000 lbs i think it would be ok. th400 behind that isnt ideal, it will handle the power fine but that diesel needs a lockup converter and OD (which adds to the build price greatly).

i drove for many years a isuzu pup with the c223 diesel, it wasnt fast but it went the same speed with #2000lbs in it. the c223 is rated for 58hp and 85 or so tq in about a 3000 lb vehicle, yet again not fast but diesel power ratings dont truly equal the same as gas.

i wouldnt buy the suburban unless i had a good body guy give the go ahead and somebody that works on the 4bt look at it and say yes, i would go to 4btswaps.com and ask as many questions as i can because most of the people that DO swap these engines into fullsize vehicles are there.

if we still cant agree thats fine im done debating. im still fairly young but ive driven alot of stuff and know a little bit, cant convince people what they dont want to believe. make a educated decision not taking the word of someone who hasnt driven one.

[cal30_sniper]

Originally Posted by sbc383rulz

i dont agree with the 6bt statement, those axles were never desgined for that weight or torque. the 1st gen dodge cummins had a hd dana 70 and were known for breaking them.

The 14 bolt FF rear in that 3/4 ton is more than adequate for a stock 6BT. The 454 they put in many of those burbs was 375 ft-lbs of torque stock, and there are many running around in them that are far from stock that aren't having problems.

Originally Posted by sbc383rulz

diesel are only expensive to work on if you do a complete rebuild, yes a full rebuild if done yourself can be about $3000. that 4bt if driven normally (meaning not overrevved or lugged way down) will last on average 3 times as long as a small block.

Sorry bud, but just about everything is more expensive when it comes to diesels. Anything you can do with a diesel of this diminutive size can be done much cheaper with a gasoline engine, except get the kind of gas mileage diesels are known for. Then again, you can buy a BUNCH of gas for the cost of a diesel swap (for most people, it actually won't ever pay off). That little 4BT will be working so hard most of the time that the gas mileage won't even be that good either. Did we mention that diesels are heavier, harder on suspension, don't handle nearly as well, and wear through tires much faster?

Originally Posted by sbc383rulz

you cant say that there are plenty of un molested suburbans around to build because while that may be the case where you are it isnt everywhere, good suburbans around here are hard to find and you pay alot for them because 4wds typically get wheeled and the 2wds have already been scrapped with bad transmissions.

I lived in that part of the world for several years just recently. Clean 3/4 ton burbans are not that hard to find at all. You can buy a real nice one for the $4000 price quoted earlier in the thread.

Originally Posted by sbc383rulz

im not debating gas vs diesel im debating that a low horse diesel engine is not comparable in any way with a low horse gas engine.

i drove for many years a isuzu pup with the c223 diesel, it wasnt fast but it went the same speed with #2000lbs in it. the c223 is rated for 58hp and 85 or so tq in about a 3000 lb vehicle, yet again not fast but diesel power ratings dont truly equal the same as gas.

This idea that you keep trying to run with is probably what bothers me the most. The kind of fuel you put into an engine has absolutely no bearing on the "quality" of power that an engine makes. Dynos don't care, and neither does your truck getting up a hill. 165 ft-lbs of torque is exactly that, no matter how its being made. The only real difference, is that 4BT only makes a little power over a very short power band. Even a stock SBC makes equivalent power over a much longer range. So while you're downshifting once or even twice to get up a hill, that 350 is going to be gone. Not only that, but the diesel engine is going to have to be run with very long gears to keep it in its powerband. A gasoline engine with tighter gears will be that much further ahead with the same amount of torque. Plus, you'll get a lot more improvement if you throw $1000 of speed parts at a SBC than you'll ever see out of twice that much sunk into a 4BT.

4BTs are great in smaller Jeeps, light trucks, and other oddball swaps. They never have had a place amongst the fullsize truck community. Diesels do great for what they do, big diesels hauling heavy trailers, small turbo diesels in light cars getting great gas mileage, or medium-large size diesels in heavier vehicles getting great gas mileage on long highway trips. Put any of those diesels into a daily driver situation around town, and it'll get the same mileage that a gasoline motor will get. Put a miniature diesel engine in a 7500lb truck with 35"+ tires, and you are going to have a very unhappy combination. That's just the facts. All the experience and opinion in the world doesn't change hard facts on paper.


Now, Back to Topic, I would be very leary of that burb, just because of personal experience that I've had with these kinds of builds done by previous owners. As a general rule of thumb, anything that has been touched that wasn't properly documented is most likely messed up, not done to specs, and will have to be done over. People that don't keep any kind of records when making major modifications like this to a truck are usually the same people that will slap any old thing together and call it good. You will have many more headaches trying to straighten out (or even figure out) a previous owner's undocumented mistakes, and it will cost you far more in the long run, than just buying a fairly original one and starting from scratch. I wouldn't pay more for it than the shell is worth, because that's very likely all that you will end up being able to use.

-cal30sniper