Retro-fitting roller lifters in 2 piece rear main seal blocks...

[chevybuilder18]

OK. so i have my 400 cubic inch small block lying around in pieces. the thing was pressure checked, looked at and everything. havent had it machined yet, filled the block half way on one side gonna fill the other side here soon . Lost one main cap and it wasnt pretty i about went off the hinges. Then i purchased new splayed mains tapped and drilled myself and arp studs. thank god i still have original rear main and front cap.. But now there is plenty of time and hope to make this engine great for my truck . i have done some reading, reading, looking at shiny stuff while doing so.. researching sbc to the fullest. so i cam acoss this and it seems fate would have it i can afford a roller set up like thishttp://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showth...190146&page=14
Tell me what you think

[INSIDIOUS '86]

The only issue I have about that is your going to be drilling into the main oil galley of the engine. And stock roller engines have bosses that are reinforced as well. If anything like he has it I would braze the nut to the block
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[bnoon]

I did that a few years back to a non-roller 350 block. I used a spider from an 87+ roller V8 and V6 roller lifters with stock length push rods. No issues at all drilling and tapping for the hardware to hold the spider down. It's not like it has any stress on it at all anyway as it's made of sprung steel to hold the keepers down and nothing else. Very easy to do and I did it all with junkyard parts and a used cam for well under 100 bucks.

[Firebirdjones]

Don't know why anyone would want to go through this trouble unless you actually have those factory roller parts just laying around and no block to go with it.

If you have to buy the spyder and rollers/guides anyway,,,,then you may as well just buy the aftermarket retrofit roller kit and be done with it, and skip all that drilling/tapping nonsense. No reason not to run the retrofit setup. Thousands of them out there doing it (I have 2 engines here like that)

I'm guessing you are aware now that you have installed new/different main caps in that block that it will have to be line bored and/or honed.

[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by Firebirdjones

Don't know why anyone would want to go through this trouble unless you actually have those factory roller parts just laying around and no block to go with it.

If you have to buy the spyder and rollers/guides anyway,,,,then you may as well just buy the aftermarket retrofit roller kit and be done with it, and skip all that drilling/tapping nonsense. No reason not to run the retrofit setup. Thousands of them out there doing it (I have 2 engines here like that)

I'm guessing you are aware now that you have installed new/different main caps in that block that it will have to be line bored and/or honed.

I cant afford the 1000 dollar retro fit cam thingy with all the machining.. my pockets wont let me.

[cableguy0]

Originally Posted by chevybuilder18

I cant afford the 1000 dollar retro fit cam thingy with all the machining.. my pockets wont let me.

What 1000 dollar retrofit and machining?No machining is needed with retrofit lifters. A good set of hydraulic retro lifters is about 350 bucks. The came price is the same no matter what lifters you use. Pushrods also have to be changed with either lifter setup. I would trust a set of retro fit lifters long before a flimsy spider that wasnt intended for the block.

[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by cableguy0

What 1000 dollar retrofit and machining?No machining is needed with retrofit lifters. A good set of hydraulic retro lifters is about 350 bucks. The came price is the same no matter what lifters you use. Pushrods also have to be changed with either lifter setup. I would trust a set of retro fit lifters long before a flimsy spider that wasnt intended for the block.

Hey im talking about my blocks machining. $250 for line bore and line hone. not to mention the 30 over bore, and cleaning of the block. im also having the shop build it, line bored motors are pretty confusing

[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by bnoon

I did that a few years back to a non-roller 350 block. I used a spider from an 87+ roller V8 and V6 roller lifters with stock length push rods. No issues at all drilling and tapping for the hardware to hold the spider down. It's not like it has any stress on it at all anyway as it's made of sprung steel to hold the keepers down and nothing else. Very easy to do and I did it all with junkyard parts and a used cam for well under 100 bucks.

im glad it turned out good. the hydraulic cam im looking into happens to be $300. comp cams 274hr. not too high of a lift, believe this is the same cam Guy is using in the thread i posted.

[INSIDIOUS '86]

I read that thread through the entirety
Basicly this will work with a mild build engine and you don't want to much lift
He bought all the parts used at a wrecking yard if anything I would get some new lifters from the dealer from the smaller v6 and the spider and dog bones are fine being used.

I'm going to try this on a spare motor of mine and will post the results. If there is a weakness I will find it for you guys
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[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

I read that thread through the entirety
Basicly this will work with a mild build engine and you don't want to much lift
He bought all the parts used at a wrecking yard if anything I would get some new lifters from the dealer from the smaller v6 and the spider and dog bones are fine being used.

I'm going to try this on a spare motor of mine and will post the results. If there is a weakness I will find it for you guys
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thank you for doing that
well good luck and i was just checking if you guys wanted some of this action. he seems pretty happy with everything. i dont know about brazing, because the block is pretty hard, im gonna try epoxy or lock tight on my stud threads. seems studs are better for everything

[INSIDIOUS '86]

I found where you can get NEW lifters on summit that will fit. As long as the cam doesn't lift the spiders your good. And brazing is like soddering on iron it will help make sure the center studs arefirm and don't leak. If a v6 engine can rev to 7 k I'm sure these lifters will be ok in a mild street engine. Obviously if your going over 420hp in a sbc this setup isn't for you
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[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

I found where you can get NEW lifters on summit that will fit. As long as the cam doesn't lift the spiders your good. And brazing is like soddering on iron it will help make sure the center studs arefirm and don't leak. If a v6 engine can rev to 7 k I'm sure these lifters will be ok in a mild street engine. Obviously if your going over 420hp in a sbc this setup isn't for you
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i know this i looked at the shiny things as well. But they are $23 a piece seems that buying 16 would be the same as... buying the cross bar retrofit lifters right? comes out to $368

[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

I found where you can get NEW lifters on summit that will fit. As long as the cam doesn't lift the spiders your good. And brazing is like soddering on iron it will help make sure the center studs arefirm and don't leak. If a v6 engine can rev to 7 k I'm sure these lifters will be ok in a mild street engine. Obviously if your going over 420hp in a sbc this setup isn't for you
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i dont plan on going 7k. i think 6200 would be more of the cams rpm range. so a set of nicely priced junk yard specials will have to do for now....
I forgot to add. my heads have 225cc intake runners and this cam is right where i want it. GMs or Chevrolet performance parts Large port vortecs, the new ones. casting 371c

[INSIDIOUS '86]

Originally Posted by chevybuilder18

i dont plan on going 7k. i think 6200 would be more of the cams rpm range. so a set of nicely priced junk yard specials will have to do for now....
I forgot to add. my heads have 225cc intake runners and this cam is right where i want it. GMs or Chevrolet performance parts Large port vortecs, the new ones. casting 371c

Those are some huge heads! That port size is for 500hp and up engines!

http://m.summitracing.com/search?keyword=HT2270
160 for 8 lifters? Not bad
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[cableguy0]

You should be somewhere around 195cc intake runner MAX on a street engine staying under 6500rpm. You will never even come close to being able to use that runner volume. Your going to lose most of your low end power regardless of the cam you pick. Runner velocity is more important than max flow especially on a street engine. Big ports slow the intake charge down unless the engine is capable of using the big ports.

[Firebirdjones]

The 225's aren't horribly big for 400 cubes, but I'd lean towards something a tad smaller since this application is destined for a truck. I'd personally prefer more grunt down low.

Like I had mentioned, if you don't already have the GM roller lifter setup, then it really isn't all that different in cost to do a retro roller setup. Personally I wouldn't put used rollers/valvetrain in an engine like this anyway. The retro setup is about $300-$350 for a cam, lifters are also about $350, and pushrods will be $150 or so. You'll also need correct springs no matter which direction you go and that's another $150-$200. You'll spend this much easily at GM for the factory pieces.

Don't skimp on the build. I know block machine work is probably going to set you back $6-$700 which really isn't that bad. I'd wait and save when you can and buy good quality parts and do it right one time.

I know it sucks that engine building is so expensive anymore.

[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by cableguy0

You should be somewhere around 195cc intake runner MAX on a street engine staying under 6500rpm. You will never even come close to being able to use that runner volume. Your going to lose most of your low end power regardless of the cam you pick. Runner velocity is more important than max flow especially on a street engine. Big ports slow the intake charge down unless the engine is capable of using the big ports.

406 cubes, VERY tall runners the taller they are they are way narrower than that of older heads and retain the port velocity through a narrower passage. pretty neat stuff and still retain the goodys of volume

[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

Those are some huge heads! That port size is for 500hp and up engines!

http://m.summitracing.com/search?keyword=HT2270
160 for 8 lifters? Not bad
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wow! i seen the stock replacement ones, i think they were melling but these still add up to 340 dollar for 16. Junk yard specials can be worth it too, with close eye balling and tear down of the lifter ect. it would be worth looking into the cheaper way, maybe they have new ones somewhere else for even cheaper. I need some help scowering the Web for cheaper replacement 2.2l 94 and up roller lifters... anyone wanna help?

[chevybuilder18]

There is a pick and pull near here, Peoria illinois, 2$ to get in, roller lifters might cost about 2 $ a piece. i did mention i already have the dog bones and retainers, plus spider tray. im also gonna reconsider the spider tray mounting, and try sketching something up with a useless intake, try and make it where the mounts for the spider tray come off the intake instead of drilling the block. this way i can get a patent, and if you guys think itll work tell me now

[INSIDIOUS '86]

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/cle-2131756

256 for 16 on summit. Here some part numbers for the lifters
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/engi...rly-block.html
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[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

http://m.summitracing.com/parts/cle-2131756

256 for 16 on summit. Here some part numbers for the lifters
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/engi...rly-block.html
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thank you. this i shall try and evaluate into budget

[chevybuilder18]

i did some mods. No going back. The holes are drilled. Im going with 5/16 threaded studs, the shiny areas on the block are the places i had to clear for the dog bones to sit flat. Might look excesive, but believe me, those things wouldnt sit flat with just a lil grinding to the block.
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[INSIDIOUS '86]

Use a flat file and true up the surfaces round out the dog bones a lil if you have to
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[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS '86

Use a flat file and true up the surfaces round out the dog bones a lil if you have to
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Rat tail file. smallest one i got

[chevybuilder18]

Originally Posted by chevybuilder18

Rat tail file. smallest one i got

updating this for those who are curious as to what i used for drill bit and the type of grinder i used for grinding away the unnecessary metal to fit the dog bones or lifter retainers, to sit flat. i did not grind the dog bones! i thought about it but that would weaken them and cause huge disapointments. i went with a 1/4 inch drill bit, and doing a lil bit bigger tap with the finer threads so deeper threads and alot more torque with these finer threads. presumably the tap of 5/16 threads. i used a corded Great kneck rotary tool for my grinding. i used the large and small diameter grinding stones, and together they made it very simple to carve. This block isnt your average 400. this is the 509 010 casting, very desirable. i also like to add, i didnt have marking tools except for my great kneck, so marking was that of some difficulty when pulling the spider tray off. but just a lil notch will do when drilling with the spider tray aligned with all dog bones in the center of the lifter bores. i made sure no mistakes were made and im pretty glad i mocked it up the way i did..
i also checked the depth of the holes from the roof of the oil galley to the lifter valley. the distance is 0.259 and 6.56 mm. If anyone else gets different results please do share