Anyone have a 348 or 409 in their 60-66

[502tripower]

Just thought I would bring this up to see if there was any interest. The 348 and the 409 were installed in the 60-65 C60 & C80 trucks and make a great powerplant for the C10 & C20 trucks. The 409 truck blocks are different then the passenger car 409 blocks as they have a relief cut out of the cylinder to lower the compression for the trucks. The passenger car 348 blocks all had the relief cuts in the cylinder. Some of the 348 truck blocks had two relief cuts and these are not desirable at all.

Here is a 409 truck block and a 348 double notch truck block.

[Jonboy]

no, but I always thought aone would be perfect in a 62 or 63 SWB with a big back window. I guess that's another one on the list of trucks I need to build that I have in my head.

[Rogue]

I have always planned to put a 340 horse 409 in my truck w/ 3 deuces.

I grew up in a 409 '64 Impala, and later had a '64 409 Impala SS.
Always had a soft spot for W blocks.
Going with a 327 for now due to finances, but one day.

[vin63]

I'm always curious to see non-traditional powerplants in our V8 era trucks. I liked the Olds diesel in a '62 at the LA Roadster Show, and I saw a Cadillac 500 in a '66 at the Mooneyes event - that was cool! Obviously, I'm a little touched running a Pontiac in mine - sorry, I tried to find a '63 GMC worth building.

[protrash64]

Cool info 502....I have been interested in these engines and wanted to do one in my pick-up when I started on it in '01. I was discouraged by some people at that time when they said they were very expensive. Im still not sure what is typical cost on these engines( this is not a what its worth post!!!!). I ve seen parts and pieces on CL .......thats it. Looking at the pics you posted I was struck by how similar they are to the smallblock.

I saw the pics of the 409 in that C60.....for some reason that huge pulley on the air compressor looked really cool, too. As far as cosmetics go, I always liked the W-shaped valve covers.

If I was to start over on my truck, I would probably go for a 472-500 Caddy; still pretty hot rod.

[TimE]

Back in the mid-90's, I had the opportunity to buy a 348 out of a '60 wagon. Like an idiot, I didn't. Would have been about $100 for the complete motor(could've bought the complete car for $200). I did (for some reason ) get the heads/intake/valve covers just to have around. I have wished many times I would've pulled the shortblock too. Oh well...

The same guy also had a '51 New Yorker with a Hemi(didn't buy it either) but I did have enough wit about me to buy a 402 and a 396 from the guy for $250.

[protrash64]

Ive seen enough parts to put a 348 together....do they share any internals with other GM products, or are they their own monster? Rings, bearings, etc.?

Also, how were the different displacements acheived? Ive read that there was also a 427 version of this W-head engine.

[TimE]

Not sure about the internals and such but the 427 you mentioned was the Z11 "mystery motor" that was used in Nascar in 63(iirc). I don't recall right off how they got the cu. in. but someone will chime in on it that is more knowledgeable about it.

Here's some info from Wikipedia---

427 (Z11)
A special 427 cubic inches (7.00 L) version of the 409 engine was used in the 1963 Chevrolet Impala Sport Coupe ordered under Chevrolet Regular Production Option (RPO) Z11. This was a special package created for drag racers, including aluminum engine and body parts and a cowl-induction air intake system, along with the 427 engine. The aluminum body parts were fabricated in Flint, MI at the facility now known as GM Flint Metal Center[1]. Unlike the later second generation 427, it was based on the W-series 409 engine, but with a longer 3.65 in (92.7 mm) stroke. A high-rise two piece aluminum intake manifold and dual Carter AFB carbs fed a 13.5:1 compression ratio to produce an under-rated 430 hp (321 kW) and 435 ft·lbf (590 N·m). 50 RPO Z11 cars were produced at the Flint plant. GM Documents exist that show 50 Z11 engines were built at the GM Tonawanda engine plant for auto production, and 20 partial engines were made for replacement/over the counter use. No evidence from GM has been found that show 57 cars were built.

[ApeKing]

I had a 425 horse 409 in a 63 bel air. It wasnt original but DAMN was it fast. As for internals NO they do not interchange. Even a distributor that interchanges on a TON of chevy motors is different because the degree of the block is different therefore the 409 is shorter. HA I found that out the hard way when that distributor kept lacking about a quarter inch of dropping all the way in!!!!! The dist was made for a 409 but the bronze cam gear that I had to have with the roller cam I installed didnt fit. Guess what? they didnt make a bronze gear that would fit! The issue was a 1/4 inch shoulder on top of the gear. So I cut it off with a band saw and polished the surface and voila! my one off 409 bronze dist/cam gear! I had roller cam/rockers etc. Lots of goodies in the heads. Dual AFBs of course and a borg warner super T-10 trans and auburn 4:11 gears. All that in a post car!If I can figure out this new scanner Ill try and scan some pics one of these days. BTW because the combustion chamber is all in the block you can actually lower the comp ratio by adding a 2nd pair of head gaskets. Chevy actually did this on the 425 horse motors ffrom the factory. It knocked it down a full point.

[protrash64]

Cool!!! Do you know if the 409 was a bore x stroke combo or just one or the other?

Id heard of the 'mystery motor' before, I thought it was the first incarnation of the BBC as we know it now.

I guess we need 502 to jump back in here and see if he knows.

[502tripower]

Originally Posted by protrash64

Ive seen enough parts to put a 348 together....do they share any internals with other GM products, or are they their own monster? Rings, bearings, etc.?

Also, how were the different displacements acheived? Ive read that there was also a 427 version of this W-head engine.

The W engines, BBC & SBC do share many of the same parts. It is very easy to put a BBC crank and rods into one of the W blocks to make a stroker. There are many new pistons available for this application as well. It is very easy to achive 450-480 CI. using the either the 427/3.76 or 454/4.00 crankshaft.

Originally Posted by protrash64

Cool!!! Do you know if the 409 was a bore x stroke combo or just one or the other?

I don't quite understand your question. Cubic inches are calculated by Bore X Stroke. The bore on the 409 is 4.3125 with a 3.5 stroke. While the 427 has the same bore of 4.3125 and a stroke of 3.65. A simple formula for calculating Cubic Inches is:
Bore 4.3125 X
Bore 4.3125 X
Stroke 3.65 X
6.2832 = 426.512972 or rounded to 427



Id heard of the 'mystery motor' before, I thought it was the first incarnation of the BBC as we know it now.

I guess we need 502 to jump back in here and see if he knows.

Here is the best explanation of the Z11/Mystery Motor.

http://www.348-409.com/z11.html

[jonzcustomshop]

here is a 409 in a big truck
and one in a coe

[protrash64]

502, what I meant previously was this: from a 348, how was a 409 derived?

I didnt know if they bored it out or stroked it, or a combo of both. Im familiar with the history of the smallblock and they achieved all the different combos by a variety of methods. I assumed that the 348 was first and then the 409 came about. Maybe they were engineered at the same time? I dont know!!

[502tripower]

Originally Posted by protrash64

502, what I meant previously was this: from a 348, how was a 409 derived?

I didnt know if they bored it out or stroked it, or a combo of both. Im familiar with the history of the smallblock and they achieved all the different combos by a variety of methods. I assumed that the 348 was first and then the 409 came about. Maybe they were engineered at the same time? I dont know!!

The 348 was first introduced in 1958 and was used through 1961 in passenger car and through 1965 in industrial trucks and equipment. Chevrolet realized that the 283 was not going to be adequate for the larger heavier cars they had planned so, the 348 was introduced. The first 409 was introduced in 1961 and 142 cars left the factory with 409's in them. The 61' 409 casting had problems and that is why only 142 where installed. The 409 was a new bigger version of the 348 with a larger bore of 4.3125 and stroke of 3.50 compared to the 4.125 bore and 3.25 stroke of the 348. Hope this helps.
Here is a great link. http://www.348-409.com/general.html

[Joey~AP]

Ive heard of several "different than normal" chevy blocks, like the chevy 302, 366, 405 and others.

Here is some good info that I found...

The Gen.I and II smallblocks as we know them will be phased out over the next few years and replaced with the Gen.III motor. The ‘98 "LS1" motor found in Corvettes, Camaros and Pontiac Firebirds are the first of the new style smallblocks. The Gen.III will soon be found in trucks applications using a cast iron Gen.III block instead of the aluminum block found in the LS1’s.

265 55-56
283 57-67
327 62-67
302 67
350 67-94
302 68-69
327 68-69
307 68-73
400 70-72
400 73-80
262 75-76
305 76-94
267 79-81
All 1st generation small blocks used a 5.7” rod length except for the
400 cid engine which used a 5.565" rod length.
Firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2


Generation II and later
350 LT5-89
350 LT1-92
265 L99-94
350 LS1-97
293 LR4-99
364 LQ4-99
325 LM7-99


L99 is Gen. II 94 and later 4.3 liter
LT5 used from 89-95 in ZR1 Corvette
LT1 is Gen. II engine
LS1 is Gen. III engine 97 and later
LR4 99 and later 4.8 liter Vortec
LQ4 99 and later 6.0 liter Vortec
LM7 99 and later 5.3 liter Vortec

Chevy Production Big Blocks

The Chevy big block was introduced in 1965 with a 396 cid Mark IV engine developed from the 1963 Datona mystery engine. The engine was basically developed as an answer to the highly successful GTO with its 389 cid engine introduced in 1964. The 396 was first offered in the Chevelle at 375 HP, in the full size Chevy as 325 and 425 HP versions and in the Corvette with up to 425 HP. In 1966 the 396 was bored out to 4.250" producing a 427 cid engine. The 427 was offered in the 1967 Impala SS rated at 385 HP and in the Corvette it was first offered in 1966 and was uprated with 3-2 bbl carburetors to 435 HP for 1967.

In 1967 the L88 427 was also provided in approximately 20 Corvettes with an advertised HP of 430 but actually producing in excess of 550 HP. The L88 required minimum 95 octane gas to avoid possible damage to the engine and was meant to be strictly for racing. 1970 saw introduction of a stroked 427 resulting in a 454 cid engine. The 454 was offered in the 1970 Impala, Chevelle SS, El Camino SS and Monte Carlo SS in a 360 HP version and in the Chevelle and El Camino SS in a 450 HP version. The 1970 Corvette LS-6 was offered with the 390 HP 454 cid engine. 1970 also ushered in the 402 cid engine which was also known as the 396 in some Chevys and the big block 400 in others. In the 1970 Camaro SS, Chevelle SS and Nova SS the 402 cid engine with 375 HP was known as the 396 and the cars carried the 396 badge. From 1970 to 1972 the 402, 454, 465 and 495 cid engines were introduced.

The short big block V8 has a deck height (centerline of crankshaft to cylinder deck measured along the centerline of the bore) of 9.80" and a height (centerline of crankshaft to top of engine along the center of the V) of 10.75". Cylinders are spaced on 4.84" centers on each bank and the centers of cylinders on the two banks are offset to accommodate the two connecting rods on each crank journal. The big blocks have been produced in 3.935", 4.096", 4.125", 4.250", and 4.440" bores and strokes of 3.47", 3.76", and 4.00". Over the years from 1965 to 1995 the big blocks were offered in nine different displacements from 366 cid to 502 cid.

Below is a table of the main dimensions for all production big block Chev engines from 1965 to 1995.


Production Big Block V8’s

CID Years Bore Stroke Block Material Actual Liters Main
CID Bearing
396 65-69
366T 66-95
427 66-69
427T 69-95
427 69
430 69
454 70-91
402 70-72
465 70-71
495 70-71
495 72
502 92-94

All big blocks have 2.75" main bearings and 2.20" rod bearings and all production big blocks used a 6.135" rod length. T is Tall (or long) block with a deck height of 10.20" and vertical height of 10.75".
Firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

[502tripower]

Originally Posted by Joey~AP

Ive heard of several "different than normal" chevy blocks, like the chevy 302, 366, 405 and others.

The 302,366 & 402 were all common engines and were produced after the 348 & 409. 302 was a 327 with a 283 crank. 366 was a small bore BBC that used the 396/427 crank and the 402 was a .030 overbored 396.

These were all 90* blocks unlike the 348 & 409 that have the combustion chamber in the block.

[thegriff2]

Just bought a 348 from a 1960 passenger car, planning to put it in my 63 C10 with 3spd overdrive when it get all the parts together that I need. Just wanted to do something different. Hope it all works out. Looking for ideas or parts that I might need. the truck has a 250 6 cyl in it now.