55.2-59 59 Disc brake upgrade

[BlouDon]

What would be the easiest / quickest / cheapest method of upgrading the front brakes to disc brakes? (BTW, I already have a brand new set of '73 onwards discs)

I'm not including a brake servo in this question but if there is an elegant way of adding a servo, I'm all ears.

[dsraven]

stock solid axle?
want to keep the same wheel bolt pattern as the rear?
gonna use a proportioning valve from a different vehicle with roughly the same set up or go with an adjustable proportioning valve?
you should know if you want power or manual brakes before you buy the new master cylinder because the bore diameter of the master cylinder can be a different size for the two and a larger bore with manual brakes equals more pedal/leg effort to get the same amount of braking. a smaller bore is easier to push but displaces less fluid so the pedal travels further down to get the same amount of fluid displaced. ensure the rear brakes are adjusted properly and have a park brake set that works and is also adjusted properly (loosened off before the service brakes are adjusted, then adjusted when the service brake adjustment is completed). you will need a new master brake cylinder because the stock one is a single system, meaning it only has one circuit in it to operate front and rear brakes. if you lose one of those systems due to leak or whatever then you lose both front and rear brakes at the same time. newer systems, since the '60's, have dual circuits. you will also need to know which circuit is sup[posed to connect to which port on the new master cylinder.
check
all brake steel lines and rubber lines for dents, corrosion or mechanical damage.
wheel cylinders for leakage
rear brake linings for wear
park brake components for wear and service
adjust rear brakes then park brakes
all brake linkages for wear/mechanical damages/binding from the pedal down to the master cylinder

[BlouDon]

Thanks for your input!

Originally Posted by dsraven

stock solid axle?

Yep

Originally Posted by dsraven

want to keep the same wheel bolt pattern as the rear?

Preferrably. 6 stud.

Originally Posted by dsraven

gonna use a proportioning valve from a different vehicle with roughly the same set up or go with an adjustable proportioning valve?

I'm quite happy to use an adjustable proportioning valve. Had to implement one on my '70 C10 having done a similar assisted disc brake upgrade on it.

Originally Posted by dsraven

you should know if you want power or manual brakes before you buy the new master cylinder because the bore diameter of the master cylinder can be a different size for the two and a larger bore with manual brakes equals more pedal/leg effort to get the same amount of braking. a smaller bore is easier to push but displaces less fluid so the pedal travels further down to get the same amount of fluid displaced.

Understood. I would prefer to have vacuum assisted brakes.

Originally Posted by dsraven

you will need a new master brake cylinder because the stock one is a single system, meaning it only has one circuit in it to operate front and rear brakes. if you lose one of those systems due to leak or whatever then you lose both front and rear brakes at the same time.

Did not know this. Dual system is a must. Braking is not to be compromised on.

Given the above, what would the recommendation be? Perhaps this ? : https://www.classicperform.com/Store...s/5559CBK6.htm

Could I use the hardware from a 73 onwards with a bracket?

[dsraven]

what engine trans combo are you running? will you be upgrading to a power steering unit at some point as well? asking because the small diameter single diaphragm vacuum power brake units are not as effective for boost as a double diaphragm or larger diaphragm unit. due to limited space under the floor where the master cylinder is located some have gone to a hydroboost unit which uses a power steering pump as a hydraulic source. they work very well and there are kits available just like there are kits for a vacuum assist brake set up. the issue is you need a power steering pump to operate them.
when going to a disc/drum set up you may need to ask when buying the new master cylinder or kit. some master cylinders will be rebuilds and may have the built in residual valves in the outlet of the master cylinder. these were used for drum brakes to keep a residual pressure in the system so the lips of the seals in the wheel cylinders keep tight against the bores of the cylinders and didn't leak contaminants into the system or fluid out of the system as well as assist in keeping the wheel cylinder pistons from retracting all the way back, which helps with pedal travel. the disc brake set up can be a little different and some will use a 2 psi valve inline just to keep the pedal from getting spongy. with a low mount master cylinder you may require inline residual valves in order to get the system to work properly.

some info on brake valving

https://techtalk.mpbrakes.com/how-to...valve-overview

https://www.wilwood.com/search/partn...sidual%20valve

https://www.mico.com/sites/default/f...re%20Valve.PDF

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/shop/...RoCq08QAvD_BwE

an example of the hydroboost system

https://westernchassisinc.com/1955-5...ke-Assist-Kit/

some stuff to think about

https://itstillruns.com/single-dual-...r-6048376.html

https://techtalk.mpbrakes.com/booste...ur-classic-car

https://techtalk.mpbrakes.com/how-to...ng-pedal-ratio

https://techtalk.mpbrakes.com/componet-size

https://techtalk.mpbrakes.com/instal...-brake-booster

hope that didn't confuse you too much. better to be informed before spending cashola

[BlouDon]

Originally Posted by dsraven

what engine trans combo are you running?

Very good question. I was hoping to retain the original (very good condition) engine by replacing the 3-sp manual with a 700R4 (I'm a big fan of the overdrive 4th). But it seems from another thread that this (blue flame??) engine will not be a straight bolt-on to the 700R4. Late 4.1s are dirt cheap out here, I'm thinking to simply drop a 4.1 / 700R4 combo in there. This 59 is meant to be a civilised, quiet cruiser. My C10 has the V8 which ticks "that" box.

Originally Posted by dsraven

will you be upgrading to a power steering unit at some point as well?

Another good question! I already have a complete Jag front (and rear) suspension. For the money it will cost to get just one of these brake kits, I might as well just fit the Jag suspension and be done with it!! Then I'll have:
- Disc brakes;
- Power steering;
- Independent suspension;
- Anti-roll bar.

Originally Posted by dsraven

with a low mount master cylinder you may require inline residual valves in order to get the system to work properly.

This is new to me! Thanks for the heads-up. Nothing is ever simple! Will remember to ask about this should I go for the low mount system.

I see there are also firewall mounted solutions. Why not go for these?

[dsraven]

If it is the stock old truck you want then you gotta keep the firewall clean and somewhat stock looking engine. If you want something that's gonna be fun to drive and roll through traffic like a newer car and be able to park somewhere without having arms like the hulk then personally I would upgrade the whole thing. Especially if you already have the jag front and rear. Stick a firewall mounted booster and master in the mix and whatever engine trans combo is readily available.
That's just me though. Somebody somewhere is taking a deep sigh right now and thinking"zButcher!"

[dsraven]

what 4.1l engine are you talking, what years are they made, what bellhousing pattern, what style of engine mounts-side or front, what vehicles did it come in?
again, just my opinion, but if it were me I would install a late model fuel injected engine with an overdrive trans that will achieve good mileage, have easy starts, have a complete front to rear exhaust with catalytic converter so as to not smog out the guy behind you (or you when parked and idling) and be fairly exhaust odor free so others will want to go for a ride with you and not feel they need a shower after to de-odorize themselves, be throaty enough without being so loud you can't carry on a conversation inside the truck. have a rear axle ratio to achieve good power but also decent highway speeds. inside would be comfy seats and a console with a shifter that is nice but not in the way. a/c, tilt, cruise, pdl, p/w, p/seats if you find a deal but not required. well insulated for sound and climate. shoulder style seat belts that work and are mounted to something solid.
in other words, the look of an old truck but the feel and convenience of a modern vehicle. we didn't upgrade for nothing, right?
again, just my opinion. it's your truck so you decide what you like and go from there.

[dennislbrooks]

4.1 should be a 250 like I just put in my 59 GMC.

[dsraven]

the old chevy 4.1l/250/700r4 would make a good swap if you wanna keep an inline 6 but want the auto O/D as well. you would need some engine side mounts fabbed up on the frame to accept the side mounts on the engine, a trans mount fabbed up for the trans since the original trans cross member is under the bell housing. some sort of aux frame stiffener possibly where the old trans cross member used to be. if not the frame can flex and play havoc with the cab mounts/door to fender fitment etc. I know, there are lots of guys who simply snip the old cross member out and run it, just saying. some shift linkage or a cable shifter set up, a rad with auto trans cooler built in or a large trans cooler separate from the rad. cooler lines, and some wiring changes. if you plan to do that along with a jag front end you may wanna plan out the whole project first so you ensure the oil pan will clear along with a steering column mod or swap. the old column is part of the original steering box. some simply cut the column off below the firewall and install a bearing in the column tube there, then connect to the new steering box with some new u joints and a collapsible column "DD" rod. if doing the engine swap it would be nice to have HEI ignition and an alternator while you're at it. the HEI requires a little larger wire ga to supply ign source power. you would also need a different style of starter switch, possibly a push button, because the old step on starter pedal wouldn't work. I also advise, for hot climates, a fan shroud on the rad and a coolant recovery reservoir. you would need to do some drive line work as well to ensure the engine angle matches the diff pinion angle (oppositely). usually 3 deg down on the engine end of things. then there would be some throttle hook up work to do and, of course, the exhaust. the 700r4 needs a throttle position cable hooked up and a module or switch for the lock up torque converter etc.

here is a bit of info from a trans supplier with an idea of what you need from a trans perspective


https://www.monstertransmission.com/...l#.XjCa32hKiUk

some info on a firewall mounted pedal and master cyl/booster kit

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/1104...ooster-master/

a thread on this site showing the HEI swap on a chevy 250
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=148346

post up some pics of what you have there to work with. and a game plan if you have one.

[dennislbrooks]

https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthreads...59-apache.html


http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=797504


This may give you an idea also on engine and brakes. You should be able to see the pics. If not let me know.

[BlouDon]

Originally Posted by dennislbrooks

You should be able to see the pics. If not let me know.

Can't see the pics :-(

[dennislbrooks]

I take the Stovebolt link is where you cannot see the pics.

[dennislbrooks]

more pics

[dsraven]

did you figure out what engine you have yet? gonna opt for a 4.1/700r4 combo?

[BlouDon]

Originally Posted by dsraven

did you figure out what engine you have yet? gonna opt for a 4.1/700r4 combo?

Yep! Thank you!

235.

So, I WOULD have to fit another engine if I wanted a 700R4 in there without having mating issues.

I've figured out I have two options:

Option 1 : minimal mods
1. Upgrade front brakes to discs (possibly even without a booster)
2. Seat belts

Option 2 : Full house
1. Upgrade front brakes to discs (with a booster & dual circuit MC)
2. Seat belts ;
3. 250 (or V8) + 700R4;
3. Power steering;
4. Aircon and heater;
5. Modern instruments;

Being a RHD vehicle, Option 2 would basically send me to the Jag front suspension solution. (Then I also get modern double wishbone suspension and anti roll bar.)

[BlouDon]

I was speaking to a chap locally who has many C10, Apache etc in his back yard and who builds step side bins "on the side". BTW, I was very impressed with his work, tailgate comes complete with CHEVROLET embossed lettering. Only the tailgate handles are not EXACT copies of the original, but even that can be done.

Anyway, he showed me how I could upgrade the brakes by using 11" Toyota Hilux D4d discs and calipers. This solution requires that the outer circumference of the hub be machined down by 0.5mm or somesuch to allow the disc to slide over the hub and then the only other item that will require a bit of fabrication, is the bracket to mount the calipers. This apparently will also allow me to use the original wheels (very much my desire).

[dsraven]

post 2 shows what the 235 bell housing looks like. the clutch and flywheel get removed to access the bell housing bolts in the engine block behind the flywheel. the engine doesn't have a large flange on the rear like the newer style does.

http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=601867

here is a pic of the v8 bellhousing from the same era, notice the larger diameter flange that bolts up to the back of the engine, which has the matching flange like the gm engines did going forward. the 4.1l would have the same kinda flange as would the 700r4 ttrans. this cast iron bellhousing also has the angled flats on the lower sides that mount the bellhousing to the cross member under the rear of the engine. the engines had front mounts that bolted up to the cross member in front of the engine. hope that helps you understand the differences.

https://www.southeastchevyparts.com/...65_p_1320.html

[BlouDon]

Originally Posted by dsraven

hope that helps you understand the differences.

Thank you! Highly informative!

[mr48chev]

Originally Posted by BlouDon

Anyway, he showed me how I could upgrade the brakes by using 11" Toyota Hilux D4d discs and calipers. This solution requires that the outer circumference of the hub be machined down by 0.5mm or somesuch to allow the disc to slide over the hub and then the only other item that will require a bit of fabrication, is the bracket to mount the calipers. This apparently will also allow me to use the original wheels (very much my desire).

That would be your best choice with the stock I beam axle.

Readily available local to you parts that have a reasonable cost and a bit of machine work on the rotors that probably won't be that expensive. Saving the information and measurements on the modification on the rotors in your reference file saves trouble later. Along with saving the rotor numbers and original application and the caliper numbers and original application info in the file.

You can do the upgrade from ball bearing to tapered wheel bearings on the wheel bearings if you want to .

[mr48chev]

You can connect a 700R4 to the 235 but it takes a special adapter.

http://www.langdonsstovebolt.com/sto...egory=18665953

That is 360.00 US dollars plus 60.00 US dollars for the starter to go with it.

700R4 require exacting adjustments on the Cable that runs between the throttle linkage and transmission or you kill the transmission in short order. The adjustment has to be perfect.

Some sources say that the 700R4 doesn't work that well with a 235 though.

250 swap? I ran a 250 for over 100 thousand miles in my 48 and they are great engines. Plenty of power to run down the highway at legal speed limits if they are geared right and as long as you take care of them they are as reliable as any engine on the market. Plus any transmission that bolts on to a Chevy V8 will bolt on to them.
Again though, are they and their parts readily available where you are at? To me that is the key when you are swapping parts, are you going to be able to source repair and general maintenance parts locally without a lot of trouble? Paying a premium for mail or shipping for what should be common parts because the have to be ordered from the states or somewhere else isn't the most productive thing.

A lot of guys on here are prone to suggesting their favorite aftermarket parts that they can source locally easily or get from an online source in a day or two but even some of those parts can leave you stranded in the US if you are on a road trip. They don't consider what may or may not be available in South Africa and what donor vehicles may be common and plentiful there.

[BlouDon]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

You can do the upgrade from ball bearing to tapered wheel bearings on the wheel bearings if you want to .

Is this a NECESSARY upgrade when going to discs?

Would the ball bearing arrangement result in the pads being pushed back when driving?

[BlouDon]

Originally Posted by mr48chev

You can connect a 700R4 to the 235 but it takes a special adapter.

This change is off the table for now. I am now pursuing the fitment of a 3.15 ratio Ford Ranger diff which would bring the standard manual ratios into "acceptable" category.

This implies that the engine and transmission and stick shift arrangement stays original - which I like.

This truck is no longer going to do the kind of work it was meant to do, so now it has to be a relaxed cruiser.

[mr48chev]

The Ranger rear has a 5 on 4.5 114.3 MM lug bolt pattern that is going to mess up your wheel selection.