I'm disappointed in the direction this forum is headed

[theastronaut]

The main purpose of a vin is to identify and register the vehicle to the legal owner. These are 60 year old trucks and a lot of them didn't survive intact. They're often missing major parts, assembled from parts of many other trucks, rebuilt from reproduction parts (including repro cabs and frames built from scratch), modified into something it never was (long to short, 2wd to 4wd swap, etc). As long as the parts were sourced legally then I see nothing ethically wrong with using the vin and title from a donor truck if you're making a hodgepodge of parts into a running/driving vehicle, especially in states where it's not easy to get a new vin assigned. It's not like we're stealing trucks and swapping vins to cover up the crime... that's the kind of reason why vin laws exist, not to punish the guy that's trying to rebuild his vintage truck.

[The Rocknrod]

"...the direction this forum is headed"
US Dept of Justice says it's illegal. North Carolina Law states it's illegal. Idaho law states it's illegal. This sites rules of conduct state illegal activity is not tolerated. Threads where this activity were shown have been closed consistently for years. So this is clearly not a change in the direction of the forum.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by theastronaut

The main purpose of a vin is to identify and register the vehicle to the legal owner. These are 60 year old trucks and a lot of them didn't survive intact. They're often missing major parts, assembled from parts of many other trucks, rebuilt from reproduction parts (including repro cabs and frames built from scratch), modified into something it never was (long to short, 2wd to 4wd swap, etc). As long as the parts were sourced legally then I see nothing ethically wrong with using the vin and title from a donor truck if you're making a hodgepodge of parts into a running/driving vehicle, especially in states where it's not easy to get a new vin assigned. It's not like we're stealing trucks and swapping vins to cover up the crime... that's the kind of reason why vin laws exist, not to punish the guy that's trying to rebuild his vintage truck.

I'm w/you on this.

My RetroRod project was stolen in 1987. It was legally registered in my name and my DD @ the time of the theft. It was recovered during the property forfeiture process on a drug dealer in 1988.

The original VIN plate was removed/discarded by the thieves. I was given an adhesive backed foil 'sticker' (for lack of a better descript) that was basically the OE VIN 'number' w/an additional digit @ the end.

The truck was never registered after (licensed but not registered) because it was non-running & trashed. That 'decal/sticker' was never attached to what was left of the OG cab long ago when I started the rebuild process. It will be attached & used upon the rebirth of the truck which is a mix of years as far as parts sourcing goes.

I didn't remove the original VIN tag & the replacement was never attached to anything. Pretty sure I'm not breaking any laws but I'm betting some here will say it is.

[Liz]

Sorry I am late to reply. Both parents are ill and they come first. The staff members that replied after me explained it. It is really simple, it is not allowed. If the OP ofn that build would like to start another build thread, great. I can not justify taking the time to find it, remove content, edit etc right now.

Thank you to all who continue to post and help folks in this amazing community.

[Rickysnickers]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I'm w/you on this.

My RetroRod project was stolen in 1987. It was legally registered in my name and my DD @ the time of the theft. It was recovered during the property forfeiture process on a drug dealer in 1988.

The original VIN plate was removed/discarded by the thieves. I was given an adhesive backed foil 'sticker' (for lack of a better descript) that was basically the OE VIN 'number' w/an additional digit @ the end.

The truck was never registered after (licensed but not registered) because it was non-running & trashed. That 'decal/sticker' was never attached to what was left of the OG cab long ago when I started the rebuild process. It will be attached & used upon the rebirth of the truck which is a mix of years as far as parts sourcing goes.

I didn't remove the original VIN tag & the replacement was never attached to anything. Pretty sure I'm not breaking any laws but I'm betting some here will say it is.

You are not breaking the law, if you attach the replacement VIN to the cab that it was assigned to. If you just put it on any other truck of your choosing, then yes, that is breaking the law.

[Rickysnickers]

Originally Posted by theastronaut

The main purpose of a vin is to identify and register the vehicle to the legal owner. These are 60 year old trucks and a lot of them didn't survive intact. They're often missing major parts, assembled from parts of many other trucks, rebuilt from reproduction parts (including repro cabs and frames built from scratch), modified into something it never was (long to short, 2wd to 4wd swap, etc). As long as the parts were sourced legally then I see nothing ethically wrong with using the vin and title from a donor truck if you're making a hodgepodge of parts into a running/driving vehicle, especially in states where it's not easy to get a new vin assigned. It's not like we're stealing trucks and swapping vins to cover up the crime... that's the kind of reason why vin laws exist, not to punish the guy that's trying to rebuild his vintage truck.

Respectfully, astronaut, I disagree with you. The primary purpose of a VIN is to identify the vehicle it is attached to. The title is for the purpose of identifying the legal owner.

VIN laws are pretty clear, you cannot swap VINs from one vehicle to another. While your intention, meaning you and what you stated, isn't to cover up any type of criminal activity, the fact that you are placing a VIN plate from a completely different vehicle, albeit the same make and type of vehicle, is illegal. Despite it being difficult to get a replacement, it is still doable. They make it difficult for a reason.

[kens65fb]

This thread has turned into a VIN thread, how about starting a new thread for VIN discussion

[J Williams]

Just so you know, those of us who are doing builds absolutely appreciate those of you who are willing to help with issues we have. I personally look on here and try to do the same but some of you are just smarter and faster than I, you always answer before I get the chance! And that's definitely not a bad thing! Thank you guys!

Originally Posted by bigmoe

I check this forum most days hoping to contribute to others or learn. It's definitely lost some traffic but I'm not going to give up on it. I'm in several facebook groups for our trucks but I do find them disjointed and frustrating, kinda here in the moment and gone in days.

[J Williams]

For all of you that enjoy helping here is my new issue https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=841807

Thanks in advance for your help!

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

Respectfully, astronaut, I disagree with you. The primary purpose of a VIN is to identify the vehicle it is attached to. The title is for the purpose of identifying the legal owner.

VIN laws are pretty clear, you cannot swap VINs from one vehicle to another. While your intention, meaning you and what you stated, isn't to cover up any type of criminal activity, the fact that you are placing a VIN plate from a completely different vehicle, albeit the same make and type of vehicle, is illegal. Despite it being difficult to get a replacement, it is still doable. They make it difficult for a reason.

In my state and plenty of others it's 100% legal to take an old VW Bug, strip the body off, hack whatever you want onto the frame, and title/register/insure the creation (whatever it ends up as) as a "VW Bug" with the VW's vin number. That vin number is no longer attached to a "VW Bug" and no longer identifies the VW Bug that the frame came from, but it's legal. It does identify the owner that registered the creation via that vin number.

Lets say that I bought the leftover VW Bug body that the previous owner discarded when he used it's frame to build a Dune Buggy, and the vin tag from the body was attached to said Dune Buggy. I also buy a same-model year VW Bug parts car that is complete with a clean title but is wrecked and rusty and at the end of its useful life. I take the two and make one and it's registered as the parts car but using the clean body leftover from the Dune Buggy build. It's all VW vin'd, VW titled, and registered as a VW. So... I used a different (but same model/year) VW body on a VW frame and it's all registered as a VW but that's illegal because the vin tag was moved over to a better body? What point would there be in me getting a new vin assigned other than to be able to register and title the "newly built" vehicle under my ownership? The vin from the donor/frame serves that purpose 100%.

Which example is legal, and which example is more correct ethically? The mixed-manufacture Dune Buggy is legal but my vin swapped VW would be illegal even though it's more of what the vin identifies it as.

Being legal doesn't always mean its right or wrong, it's just the way the government thinks things should be. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't, sometimes the principle behind the law is good but the technical details could use some wiggle room for common sense situations like my body swap example.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

You are not breaking the law, if you attach the replacement VIN to the cab that it was assigned to. If you just put it on any other truck of your choosing, then yes, that is breaking the law.

Well.... unless someone is working hand-in-hand alongside me throughout my build, I guess only I'll know those specifics.

[1966 K10]

Originally Posted by theastronaut

I haven't found a forum yet that I liked everything about it...

Mods and admins can make or break a forum. Look at TS, great info, mostly helpful contributors but one boomer mod has made most new folk turn to FB to avoid the personal attacks, nut swinging ego, and pushing of his own product while crapping on other options (clear conflict of interest). Not sure what he has on EB to let him get away with destroying such a good site, must be related or something.

Maybe now that he is no longer selling his 'restored gold' he will back off with his crap but not holding my breath.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 1966 K10

Mods and admins can make or break a forum. Look at TS, great info, mostly helpful contributors but one boomer mod has made most new folk turn to FB to avoid the personal attacks, nut swinging ego, and pushing of his own product while crapping on other options (clear conflict of interest). Not sure what he has on EB to let him get away with destroying such a good site, must be related or something.

Maybe now that he is no longer selling his 'restored gold' he will back off with his crap but not holding my breath.

What is 'TS'?

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

What is 'TS'?

I’m guessing thesamba, EB = Everett Barnes, the site owner. It’s the first forum I ever joined and the one I’ve been the most active on other than this one. Or maybe I’m wrong since I don’t know what mod he’s talking about, but should since I spend time there?

[Rickysnickers]

I have to put a sentence in to reply.

Originally Posted by theastronaut

In my state and plenty of others it's 100% legal to take an old VW Bug, strip the body off, hack whatever you want onto the frame, and title/register/insure the creation (whatever it ends up as) as a "VW Bug" with the VW's vin number. That vin number is no longer attached to a "VW Bug" and no longer identifies the VW Bug that the frame came from, but it's legal. It does identify the owner that registered the creation via that vin number.

Using the Bug as an example, when the bugs were originally manufactured, the VIN was on the pan as well as the body. You can build whatever you want onto the pan/frame, but there's still a VIN on it and it's the same as the body that was removed from the pan/frame. The State would have to issue a new VIN tag to either the pan or the separated body.

Here's the issue with the pre 80 VWs, since both parts, pan and body, have the same VIN, if the body is bought by somebody and later stolen, that VIN is entered into the SVS, Stolen Vehicle System. Now, since the pan that went with that body has the same VIN, there's potentially an issue for the owner of that part of the car. Sorry, but the VIN still identifies the car, this is if the State has not issued a new VIN for either the pan or separated body. I don't mean to sound demeaning to you, as that it not the way this is meant, but VIN means Vehicle Identification Number. It identifies the vehicle, not the R.O.



Lets say that I bought the leftover VW Bug body that the previous owner discarded when he used it's frame to build a Dune Buggy, and the vin tag from the body was attached to said Dune Buggy. I also buy a same-model year VW Bug parts car that is complete with a clean title but is wrecked and rusty and at the end of its useful life. I take the two and make one and it's registered as the parts car but using the clean body leftover from the Dune Buggy build. It's all VW vin'd, VW titled, and registered as a VW. So... I used a different (but same model/year) VW body on a VW frame and it's all registered as a VW but that's illegal because the vin tag was moved over to a better body? What point would there be in me getting a new vin assigned other than to be able to register and title the "newly built" vehicle under my ownership? The vin from the donor/frame serves that purpose 100%.

See my comments above. Beetle production was stopped in the US in 79. Assuming that the body you purchased was 79 pr older, it still has the same VIN tag as the one on the dune buggy pan. There's the issue. Now there are two different vehicles floating around out there with the same VIN number. That's where the State would have to come in to determine which vehicle gets the VIN that was assigned at the factory.

Doing the construction as you describe, then yes, the State needs to either issue the dune buggy a new VIN or use the new to you pan as the VIN for the newly created vehicle. It would up to the State to remove any VINs, not the owner/builder. No, you cannot take a VIN from a one body to place onto a different body, despite the fact they may be the same make, model year, etc.


Which example is legal, and which example is more correct ethically? The mixed-manufacture Dune Buggy is legal but my vin swapped VW would be illegal even though it's more of what the vin identifies it as.

Sorry, yes your build would be illegal for you swapping or removing the VIN. There's no two ways about it.

Being legal doesn't always mean its right or wrong, it's just the way the government thinks things should be. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't, sometimes the principle behind the law is good but the technical details could use some wiggle room for common sense situations like my body swap example.

This is absolutley true in some cases!! However with vehicles, it's pretty cut and dry.

[Rickysnickers]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Well.... unless someone is working hand-in-hand alongside me throughout my build, I guess only I'll know those specifics.

That's true and hopefully it won't come back to bite you.

[1966 K10]

Originally Posted by theastronaut

I’m guessing thesamba, EB = Everett Barnes, the site owner. It’s the first forum I ever joined and the one I’ve been the most active on other than this one. Or maybe I’m wrong since I don’t know what mod he’s talking about, but should since I spend time there?

Yup, and mr 010 is the generation jones culprit

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

That's true and hopefully it won't come back to bite you.

It won't. I promised not to tell on myself.

[LVPhotos]

We repaired a Toyota cab roll over the "legal" way was cut and weld vs remove, repair and pop rivet vin. Most body shops have proper rivets.

[PowerdbyChevy79]

Technology has hurt this and many forums.. smart phones make it easy to just upload a pic to Facebook/Instagram instantly, where to upload a pic via computer takes "more effort" lol. The quality definitely isn't there on social media. Social media was new and sexy and pulled alot of people away.. I think people will migrate back to the forums. Well the hardcore guys anyways.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by PowerdbyChevy79

Technology has hurt this and many forums.. smart phones make it easy to just upload a pic to Facebook/Instagram instantly, where to upload a pic via computer takes "more effort" lol. The quality definitely isn't there on social media. Social media was new and sexy and pulled alot of people away.. I think people will migrate back to the forums. Well the hardcore guys anyways.

Agreed.

[theastronaut]

Originally Posted by 1966 K10

Yup, and mr 010 is the generation jones culprit

Mr 010 isn't liked by people that are still hung up on the 009 being the greatest thing ever because he points out how much better other options (like the 010) are.