Best All Around Motor?

[superchevy]

454 big block.
Best all round for me anyway...
Gas mileage? What's that?

[TwoFiftyShifter]

Small Block Chevy.

[C20-67_N_MO]

400 Chevy punch out .30 over to 406

Bigger is better!!

Right?

[Ticker]

The best all-around engine for a budget-minded guy is a late model, roller-cam, Vortec head 383 with an upgraded cam, dual-plane aftermarket intake, 650 cfm vacuum-secondary carb, HEI and headers. A smart guy can make a killer pull-out buy on one of these and be on the road cheap...and make 400+ HP.

In terms of power per dollar...it's impossible to beat

If money is no object...a supercharged LSx454

[AirSpeed]

I was reading some trade magazine a couple years ago and there was an artical about some engineering award given to the Chevy 350 as the best engineered machine in the last 100 years.(something like that) mine has never been out of the truck since my grandfather bought the truck new In 1970. I have had it for more than 20 years and have only changed the alternator, that's the only thing that has ever gone wrong with it.

[gchemist]

Power, economy and price......

Roller cam block, 383, Vortec heads, aluminum intake, Qjet, 700R4 and gears based on tire size.

[boostat4500]

IMO, power, economy, and price has to go to a 6.0L LQ4/LQ9.
They're becoming ridiculously cheap to buy complete and you don't have to touch them to match or beat a SBC with a bunch of upgrades.
Personally I think it's easier to get a late model running right than a carb motor and you never have to touch it once running.
As far as ease of swap, I'd be willing to bet 9 out 10 people that say it's hard, haven't actually tried it. There's just too much support and info out there now.

[Ticker]

Originally Posted by boostat4500

IMO, power, economy, and price has to go to a 6.0L LQ4/LQ9.

As far as ease of swap, I'd be willing to bet 9 out 10 people that say it's hard, haven't actually tried it. There's just too much support and info out there now.

I agree - but the issue isn't so much hard as still kinda expen$ive. Easier for our trucks since we don't have hood clearance issues.

[C-10 simplex]

1) If you're sticking with gas, then the small block chevy;

It can be swapped in under 8 hours. If it's your first time, then in 3 days or less. i don't think an LS can be swapped in under 8 hours because of all the fiddling involved. In fact, i would say the average time is probably 3 months. Time is money; Think about all the time that could be spent working, earning money vs. fiddling with the engine.

[karl]

350 or 400 if you dont bore the 400 too much. They(400) tend to overheat when bored .060. 383 if you dont mind a little machine work. I wouldnt use a 307 because none of the 307 blocks had much nickel and they wear out fast. Look for a 350 truck block with 4 bolt mains and high nickel content. Thats what i use. 454 is next to go in my C10. Of course its not a daily driver.

[boostat4500]

I'd like to coment on the total time thing here for a LSx swap. I did mine over the weekend out in the street, so this was strictly daylight hours.
Friday night: yank old motor/tranny
Saturday: install new motor, hook up fuel and P/S and put front of truck back on.
Sunday: build exhaust system, finish wiring, hook up new gauges.
All that was left was to get the driveshaft modified, which obviously couldn't be done before hand, and I was ready to go. Before I started I had the following ready to go: harness modified, PCM tuned, new guages in the truck, and electric fans mounted on the radiator. I used a universal LS swap crossmember, so that went quick, and used the stock tranny crossmember.
So my main point here is, if your prepared before hand, it goes pretty quick. Having a properly prepaired and labled harness is the biggest thing to make sure of. Even if nothing had been prepared prior, I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done over 2 weekends. Once you're done, you'd be amazed how simple it really is.

[Clyde65]

I completely agree with boostat4500. I think it took about 7 or so hours to pull the old eng/trans and stick the LS in, buttoned up and wired. This was by myself, in a carport. It took me longer to get it running, just because I can not leave well enough alone and I decided to replace the master cylinder/prop valve, brake lines, radiator, install dual electric fans, entire wiring harness, guages, tail lights. since I had the parts and it needed to be done.

I would buy the fuel pump and filters, electric fans if you want them, trans and engine mounts, have the harness reworked or buy a standalone, reflash/reprogram the PCM before I started anything, then start on a day you can devote the whole day, maybe with a friend and get after it. There is alot of help here and maybe if someone lives near you from this forum, maybe they would be that friend. I have never removed/replaced an engine before, I have seen it done but never have done it...I also am a computer guy so read whatever you want to into that, if I can do it, ANYONE can do it. just be well prepared dude! I wasnt, I had alot of problems with motor mounts and perches, but I got them figured out finally. It really was easy, especially with our trucks.

Good luck, btw where are you located? Anyone here reading this can you help him?

Clyde65

[C-10 simplex]

So, you guys were able to install the engine AND install an electric fuel pump in 7 or so hours or 1 saturday(24hrs?) AND have the engine running WITH NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER? (not to mention re-installing the whole front sheetmetal?)

If that's the case, then congratulations.(i think?)


NOTE: i am not anti-LS motor, i think they are great. However, despite some information being on the web/books etc., i still feel that LS conversions and fuel injection in general are still not plug and play. At least not at this point.

a) i'm not counting against on driveshaft or exhaust issues in the LS conversions because those are fairly straightforward. However, that is another factor to consider in terms of total time, effort, and money.

b) As a time/ease of installation comparison:

After 8-9 hours (sbc-to-sbc swap), and about 1/2 hr. carb tuning, i was able to go on a 110 mile trip--it was a test run. The truck ran with no major issues. Yes, there was a choke problem which took about 1hr, 45 mins total to solve afterwords(went on web, read books etc.). But the point is, i was able to have a completely running vehicle in about under 10 hrs.

i do not think this is possible with any LS conversion. Hence, my vote for the SBC.

[Clyde65]

It is completely your call there C10. It is what you feel comfortable with. I understand you apprehensiveness, but just think about it, price it out. Even with a crate engine and such, issues are always possible. I am waiting on $ for the exhaust but when that is done, I believe I will be much better off. My 350/400 was real tired when I got started, ran but was REAL tired. I have ran my truck with the LS in there and it runs massively better than the 350, better throttle response and MUST get better than the 8-9 MPG I was getting. I must admit right now it is VERY loud without the exhaust but it does give me the chance to pi$$ off the neighbors some. The only REAL issue I see is the AC, which i havent even thought of til I get it moving on a daily basis.

[FLDBRED]

Hands down the LS motors are better,no one will argu that,and for some it might not be that hard a swap.But I like many,do very few engine swaps.Yet I know I can change SBC to SBC or SBC to BBC in a weekend.Maybe after I tried the swap I would see it differently!

[boostat4500]

I'm pretty much with Clyde65 on the time frame. The fronts of these trucks basically fall off. What issues would you expect to encounter as far as how the engine runs? Saying you spent 1/2 an hour tuning the carb sounds like an eternity to me when it come to making an engine run right. Unless the motor is heavily modded there's nothing to tune other than turning off/eliminating certain things in the PCM. Now that it's done, I would say that if I had all parts in hand, I could do the swap into a bone stock truck and have it driving all in the same day.
I don't think that anyone would argue aqainst installing a new SBC being faster and easier, but in the end you still have the same garbage (comparatively) Gen. 1
Just trying to show it's not the daunting task that people make it out to be. It's all just nuts and bolts.

[Gus63]

Definately the 400 small block. Smaller, lightweight, And still makes a lot of power.

[kc21130]

My feeling is that if you want an electronic truck, buy a late model all ready to go. To me the fun of old trucks and cars is there is little or no electronics to fool with.

Yes, the electronics make for more driveability, better mileage and more performance if you know what you are doing. They are not as much fun as the old ones is my opinion. If you re building an old vehicle to be a daily driver then fine, but the fun of the old ones is that it's all mechanical. Keep a spare carb, distributor, and starter in the garage and you are ready for anything.

That said if I was going to fool with an electronic conversion I'd probably go with....in a GM truck...a Northstar. Sorry, the driveability and smoothness is better, and there is no truck they don't fit.

Or maybe a Duramax.

The old school Gen 1 engine to me is the best SB Chevy, everything fits, two piece oil seal but fully internal balance except on the 400. Really, most all of them are good except the very earliest (resto only) and the oddballs like the 262.

Put a single Holley four barrel on there, or an Impco propane mixer, and a good electronic distributor and you are good to go.

Is the LS a good engine? Yes. But retrofiting it to the older vehicle is a lot of work and you wind up with an electronic vehicle-it works, or it doesn't, and if the box goes you're done. All a mechanical engine needs is 12 volts for the ignition-you can even run points if you want, I hate them, but even nuclear war won't kill them.

Plus in most states a new engine means conforming to modern emissions, meaning you need to run catalysts, and pass emissions tests. You can beat this by having a "service replacement block" (no VIN-new block or used from a boat, gen set, ag pump, whatever) but I doubt you will find any LS engines with no-VIN blocks, plus in some states they go by "the earliest engine that COULD HAVE USED this style block" which means any LS or LT is going to be an early nineties engine at least for smog purposes. If there is even a possibility you might have to move to California, New York or New Jersey for job purposes you need to factor that in. You could convert to propane, but even propane requires closed loop and catalysts now in California after mid-90s.

[cableguy0]

Why would you want a pos northstar? they have way too many serious problems. They sucked in the caddys. When they are running right they are great but theres just way too many issues plus the expense of parts etc. The best engine right now is the ls series when comparing all around factors.The emissions argument doesnt really work. If anyone is putting that engine into a smog exempt truck changing the engine isnt going to cause you to need smog testing. Whos gonna tell on ya? I will say though if your going for simple and cheap its really hard to beat a sbc. Its says a lot that an engine developed almost 60 years ago is still in use and with very few changes from original design.

[kc21130]

Originally Posted by cableguy0

Why would you want a pos northstar? they have way too many serious problems. They sucked in the caddys. When they are running right they are great but theres just way too many issues plus the expense of parts etc. The best engine right now is the ls series when comparing all around factors.The emissions argument doesnt really work. If anyone is putting that engine into a smog exempt truck changing the engine isnt going to cause you to need smog testing. Whos gonna tell on ya? I will say though if your going for simple and cheap its really hard to beat a sbc. Its says a lot that an engine developed almost 60 years ago is still in use and with very few changes from original design.

My daily driver is a 2004 Seville. I bought it at an estate sale in 2008 on a whim and haven't done a single thing besides change oil and front brake pads in fifty thousand miles. It's the best running car I have ever had. Yes, it burns oil, a little. I got it for nothing, practically, because it needs paint-the roof and trunk are nasty and there is peeling on the hood. When something major goes I'll probably dump it, because the resale is lousy, but I'm going to miss it bigtime.

One thing GM always did really well was good heating and A/C. The heat is great, and that makes me very happy these last couple of weeks.

[C-10 simplex]

Ramjet, while it looks good on paper, doesn't sound plug and play to me:

4 years, numerous hassles with dealers/engineers etc. and i'm still not sure if problem solved:
http://www.carols62.com/ramjet/cruise_control.html


5 months, numerous hassles with dealer/engineers etc./ hassles in general and problem still not solved:
http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/sh...l/ramjet/tp/1/

i did consider ramjet, but things like these steered me away from it.

i think you'll find that these situations are the norm and not atypical; When there's a problem with EFI, you'll find very long forum posts with pages and pages spanning over a time period of many months---in some cases years! And the problems still don't get solved. You generally don't find that with carb/distributor problems---a few days or a week and the problem is solved.

Again, i am not anti-efi. And, in fact i acknowledge that FI is superior to carb systems---i can't argue against that. But, these system are still not plug and play yet. The factory systems are wonderful(i'm even thinking of looking for a TBI truck)-----until something goes wrong.

Now, one thing that does look good is the megasquirt thing; This would allow the user to fully understand her/his system and more importantly accurately and quickly diagnoise any problems. But i don't have time to learn all that.

[boostat4500]

kc21130: The way you describe your Seville makes it sound like every LSx vehicle I've ever heard of. I put a blower on a 100k 98' Trans AM and never had a single issue, leaks, burning oil, nothing. In my 01' TA I built a blown 408 putting 650hp to the ground on 91 octane. Got 21 mpg on the freeway and I put 20k miles on it in one year, again, without a single issue. Will the Northstar do that? These motors are bullet proof that don't leak! I've pulled apart 100k+ mile motors and they have no measurable cylinder wear.
As far as the electronics go, the only power needed to run an LSx is 2 wires to the PCM, so we'll call that a tie with your gen. 1.
I've owned many Carbed vehicles and they are the only ones that ever left me stranded. They don't give any warning before something goes out. A new motor will warn you ahead of time of a problem.
Have you buy chance done the swap or are you just commenting based solely on what other people, who also haven't actually done the swap, have said? Just curious....

[kc21130]

Originally Posted by boostat4500

Have you buy chance done the swap or are you just commenting based solely on what other people, who also haven't actually done the swap, have said? Just curious....

I'm going by what can happen with ANY electronic engine, gas or diesel. If the box goes you are out of commission. Mechanical engines usually are field repairable, they will lose ignition from points or electronic box failure, carbs crap out, fuel pump craps out, whatever.

I used to have a supposedly unreliable Land Rover. I put an American fuel pump in instead of the SU and carried a spare pump, carb, distributor, plug wires and plugs. Sooner or later I figured it would die out there in the desert and I'd have them. Never did. I sold the Rover and bought a modern Jeep Wrangler with EFI inline 6. In two years I got field stranded twice. Once I walked out to a Starvin' Marvin and the second time the Border Patrol rescued me. Both electronic failures. I was a Cali resident then so de-electronifying was a non option. I bought a much older Jeep with a carbed 258 and carried spares and never needed them. (Jeeps are great for rockcrawling and mudding. Land Rovers are radically superior for getting in and out of bad places.)

I'm happy with my electronic Caddy but I don't drive in places where failure would put me in a bad way for very long. Cell phones and legal concealed carry make me less nervous in the rare event I visit bad urban areas, and Cadillacs aren't much good off road so desert strandings are a non issue. If it quits I just call AAA.

The only difference between your homebrew electronic engine truck and my Caddy is if it does crap out in the field, if I can't fix it I can hand some shop the keys and get a motel room. If a DIY swap has problems you're going to probably have to fix it yourself no matter how cold, hot or rainy it is, probably outside. No one else will probably want to touch it. Nor, around here will they let you do it under their roof. I'm too old to be crawling under cars outside in the winter and damn sure not without jackstands and chocks.

Don't take this as a putdown, I think it's great guys do this stuff. But I like simple.

A lot of the low buck road race guys are into MegaSquirt, a DIY EFI system. It looks like fun, but not for me.

[kc21130]

Originally Posted by boostat4500

Have you buy chance done the swap or are you just commenting based solely on what other people, who also haven't actually done the swap, have said? Just curious....

I'm going by what can happen with ANY electronic engine, gas or diesel. If the box goes you are out of commission. Mechanical engines usually are field repairable, they will lose ignition from points or electronic box failure, carbs crap out, fuel pump craps out, whatever.

I used to have a supposedly unreliable Land Rover. I put an American fuel pump in instead of the SU and carried a spare pump, carb, distributor, plug wires and plugs. Sooner or later I figured it would die out there in the desert and I'd have them. Never did. I sold the Rover and bought a modern Jeep Wrangler with EFI inline 6. In two years I got field stranded twice. Once I walked out to a Starvin' Marvin and the second time the Border Patrol rescued me. Both electronic failures. I was a Cali resident then so de-electronifying was a non option. I bought a much older Jeep with a carbed 258 and carried spares and never needed them. (Jeeps are great for rockcrawling and mudding. Land Rovers are radically superior for getting in and out of bad places.)

I'm happy with my electronic Caddy but I don't drive in places where failure would put me in a bad way for very long. Cell phones and legal concealed carry make me less nervous in the rare event I visit bad urban areas, and Cadillacs aren't much good off road so desert strandings are a non issue. If it quits I just call AAA.

The only difference between your homebrew electronic engine truck and my Caddy is if it does crap out in the field, if I can't fix it I can hand some shop the keys and get a motel room. If a DIY swap has problems you're going to probably have to fix it yourself no matter how cold, hot or rainy it is, probably outside. No one else will probably want to touch it. Nor, around here will they let you do it under their roof. I'm too old to be crawling under cars outside in the winter and damn sure not without jackstands and chocks.

Don't take this as a putdown, I think it's great guys do this stuff. But I like simple.

A lot of the low buck road race guys are into MegaSquirt, a DIY EFI system. It looks like fun, but not for me.

[Old Yeller 1970]

The best all around motor? That's a matter of personal preference. I would never put a different engine in Old Yeller (see sig) besides a 350. Although it's been rebuilt, it's the original 4 bolt high nickel, high tin block. It was rebuilt, .030" over, by the PO at 100K. I drove it another 145K and the cylinder walls only needed to be honed to .040" over to rebuild it. That's a pretty good engine, IMO. No more than I drive it now it will last until the end of the petroleum age.

I have a 5.7L '94 Suburban. It's fast approaching 250K mi and the engine, heads, intake, fuel injection system, have never been touched. That's a darn good engine.

My father has a 2000 Chevy truck with a 6.0L. His is also about to turn 250k mi and he has never worked on the engine either.

That's my experience. Any of them are good.