weird airbag problem

[ZR2RICK]

all opinions aside remember vendors of air suspension parts/systems have a financial interest in SELLING you on more complicated systems, not to say they don't care about safety, I drive a converted 35' bus on air (mechanical self leveling/no computers)and plenty of tractor trailers are on our roads w/millions of miles on their air ride systems, check out how they are set up if you want simple safe air ride.

[kieth]

I have air bags on the rear of my truck only and right now I have the air lines tied together so there is only 1 fill line that goes to a schrader valve. I have a sway bar on order but as I thought about it it just makes sense that the 2 air bags really need to be on seperate supplies or isolated from one another. As a vehicle leans when turned say to the left the body will roll right and load the right outside air bag (pressure will go up and it will force air to the inside bag------which will make the body lean even more to the right.
If you are going to use a single air source then you should have check valves which prevent the air from going between the 2 bags to minimize the body roll. Some truck air ride systems use a small air tank between the two air bags that acts as a accumulator or buffer between the 2 bags, this not only helps stabilize the vehicle during a turn it also helps soften the ride to keep it from jarring a vehicle when it hits a bump.
I feel that even a in line flow regulator could do this job simply enough by restricting the air flow between the 2 bags so the air would not be transfered from side to side so quickly. I have owned, driven, and built class 8 road trucks that have air ride systems built into them , they use a ride height control valve that has one supply into the valve, two outputs to the bags, they have valves that keep the air supply seperated and when pressure in one bag goes too high the valve actually vents the air into the atmosphere, as the truck goes down the road it actually adds air or lets it out as needed. The difference is, these trucks have a large air supply and they can afford the loss of air continually. when I look at the air control systems that are commercially sold for cars and trucks I feel that the only reason we have to have this four corner control is the fact that we do not have enough air available to supply a air ride system that knows it will use some air. A York A/C compressor can be used to solve this problem but most of us want our underhood area to look cool not provide enough air to do the job.

Did not want to start a argument-----just food for thought-- trying to show things from a different angle................ Kieth

[blime81]

Here is a 6 valve setup that gives 4 corner up control. Down is still per axle.
Personally I'd put a check valve on each line just prior to the dump to keep the air from transfering via the dump line.



Personally I think all this talk about 8 valves being more complex setups and whatnot is pretty relative. Covering up bad manners with a swaybar is only masking the issue. With all the work you are already doing, plumbing, wiring and so on whats another couple of valves? Not to mention the cost of tees, check valves that you don't need with a straight up 8 valves setup.

As far as simplicity, if I lose a valve far from home I've got a bunch of spare line and some push to fit tees. I can change around some plumbing and still get home. Kinda like on-board spares...

Trust me, I always try to save a buck where I could, but if you can't afford to build it right, how can you afford to fix it when it breaks?

Oh and the CPP HD sway bar gets my vote. It's by far the most bang for the buck upgrade I have ever done.

Best of luck!

[Shane]

Originally Posted by ZR2RICK

Iv'e seen it posted elsewhere, check valves were installed before each bag to isolate them and eliminate the air transfer ...

... if you got a check valve BEFORE the bag then how you gonna deflate it?

[ZR2RICK]

I set up my bags so with a loss of air i still have enough clearance to drive the truck, I just prefer to have as few joints as possible in the system and fewer working parts if possible. I am going to try the one sol. valve feeding two bags w/ a check valve between the bags and see how it handles ,since I can't yet find anyone that has tried it .

[blime81]

You'll only control air transfer one way with one check valve. A check valve is a one way valve. That would work if you only made left turns but once it transfers to one side it won't go back.

You'll need 4 check valves to stop side to side transfer on a 2 valve setup.

BTW nice Ghia. Planning on building an airbeam for my '67 Bug this winter.

[ZR2RICK]

yes ,one check valve per bag. thanks, the Ghia was a serious labor of love, and the reason this project will have air bags, couldn't drive it anywhere w/out dragging the pan.

[blime81]

Originally Posted by ZR2RICK

yes ,one check valve per bag. thanks, the Ghia was a serious labor of love, and the reason this project will have air bags, couldn't drive it anywhere w/out dragging the pan.

I can't think how you'll plumb it with one check valve per bag, you've gotta get the air out of there. This is the only way I envision a 2 valve setup that would stop side to side roll, 2 checks per bag. Am I missing something?




Oh and here's my DD bug. It's about an inch lower than when this pic was taken and with the carp roads here it needs to be adjustable...

[Shane]

Originally Posted by ZR2RICK

yes ,one check valve per bag.

please share with us a diagram that explains how you would plumb this.

[ZR2RICK]

Originally Posted by blime81

I can't think how you'll plumb it with one check valve per bag, you've gotta get the air out of there. This is the only way I envision a 2 valve setup that would stop side to side roll, 2 checks per bag. Am I missing something?




Oh and here's my DD bug. It's about an inch lower than when this pic was taken and with the carp roads here it needs to be adjustable...

this is what I had in mind,(thank you Blime81) I just misspoke before, each axle,1 supply valve,2 dump valves,4 check valves, both dump valves wired to one switch.

[Shane]

after purchasing 4 check valves, you are pretty much twice the money as purchasing 2 solenoid valves.

4 check valves @ $23.99 = $95.96

2 solenoid valves @ $28.99 = $57.98

you'll also have quite a few more connections due to the additional "T's" that will be required with the check valves ...
just not sure I see the advantage.

[ZR2RICK]

I pay half that or less because I buy through my work, but regardless, in my experience with pneumatics, solinoid valves are less reliable than mechanical check valves, but we will see, as Iv'e stated I'm always one to question the "Way things are done" so this will be an experiment to try and create a simpler more reliable system.

[Shane]

good luck. keep us posted. we like pics.

[blime81]

I see what you are getting at zr2rick. Doing it different, I can respect that.

I think you'll also want to look into flow controls as well since I think you'll have a hard time getting it to lift up even otherwise. Airline lengths will be key.

First setup I did was with ball valves. Worked well, had FBSS and looked kinda neat too. Not much to go wrong with manual valves. Just food for thought as a single ball valve could also be used to stop side to side transfer. I may actually do a hardlined ball valve setup for my bug. But there's only one bag up front so it's apples to oranges...

[ZR2RICK]

I am looking into the various ways to manage airflow,I may still go with mechanical height control valves like I have on my bus, anyway ,this is great being able to discuss these options with others while working on a new project, nothing like pre-internet days ,we all did a lot more head scratchin .

[DLOE65]

Here are some awesome valves that won't break the bank. 1 valves controls your up and down for 1 wheel. They have 1/8" NPT ports for the fill dump and input. reliable, simple and affordable. Dino has a set on his "my first c10 custom build". you can check them out on his build thread in the 60-66 forum.

[kieth]

Hey guys I do not sell any of the products mentioned here but I did recently stay at a holiday inn express------ha ha seriously I just did a repair on a truck with air controls by solenoid valves at each corner, by the time we got this mess sorted out it was crazy, valves everywhere, wires everywhere, compressors everywhere, I started to look around and as of now I think I will try the Accuaire VU4 solenoid valve unit for 4 bag control, the reason I chose it was because it solved all the problems not just one,here is the list of advantages.

http://accuairsuspension.com/product_vu4.html

1. fewer air line connections (I would use slip in fittings only if possible)

2. the air lines only have to hook up in one spot for each bag for both up and down functions.

3. The VU4 provides isolation of each bag but allows one to control the up and down functions with a wide variety of control boxes.

4. The wiring is really simplified, already waterproof and has a low power requirement for operation.

5. ability to add other features later--height sensors, digital control, etc so you can start with the solenoid first then add a simple $25.00 electric control and later add a $600.00 digital display controler.....

You will save money on everything air fittings, wiring, etc...it only hurts once around $500.00 but in the long run it looks like the best deal to me...because you may buy a $40.00 control valve but it takes 2 per bag and you do not know how much the air fittings, t's, etc will cost, plus the wiring, plus the leaks and shorts down the road. Kieth JMO

http://accuairsuspension.com/product_vu4.html

[6772owner]

I recently "upgraded" to the Airlift Manual Paddle Valves and I love them! They were cheap (under $20/ea) and all you the control of FBSS without a lot of hassle. I did choose to run double needle gauges for F/R and a single needle for tank pressure. I still managed to get it all for around $200/plus some 1/4" line and a "manifold" I built out of four 1/4" tee's to split the air supply.

[gringoloco]

Originally Posted by DLOE65

Here are some awesome valves that won't break the bank. 1 valves controls your up and down for 1 wheel. They have 1/8" NPT ports for the fill dump and input. reliable, simple and affordable. Dino has a set on his "my first c10 custom build". you can check them out on his build thread in the 60-66 forum.

Seen these a few times on the forum now and am intrigued. Source? Pricing?

[DLOE65]

PM Sent.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by blime81

Here is a 6 valve setup that gives 4 corner up control. Down is still per axle.
Personally I'd put a check valve on each line just prior to the dump to keep the air from transfering via the dump line.

How does this schematic allow for 4 corner 'control'? If you inflate the farthest left bag by activating that solenoid, it allows air to enter the bag thus pressurizing anything connected. Since the 2nd bag is tee'd in on the 'dump-valve' side, it would also receive air pressure.

What am I missing here?

[blime81]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

What am I missing here?

Check valves. Probably didn't explain that very well.

A check valve placed on each side inline on the way to the dump allows air to only move to the dump. If the air from the left tried to pass to the right, the check valve on the right would stop it and vise versa.

In this way it allows independent UP by letting air flow to the dump but not past because the other sides check valve stops the side to side transfer.

Hope this clears it up.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by blime81

Check valves. Probably didn't explain that very well.

A check valve placed on each side inline on the way to the dump allows air to only move to the dump. If the air from the left tried to pass to the right, the check valve on the right would stop it and vise versa.

In this way it allows independent UP by letting air flow to the dump but not past because the other sides check valve stops the side to side transfer.

Hope this clears it up.

Ok. I caught where you were stating the check valves should go. The lead-in descriptive statement "Here is a 6 valve setup that gives 4 corner up control" & the attached schematic is what didn't make sense to me.

Combine that schematic w/the check valves as described & it makes sense.

[blime81]

There is a real good pic a member here posted with this type of setup plumbed out. Can't find it for the life of me though.

[blime81]

Looking back over this thread I noticed that nobody ever mentioned that the main reason guys use a 6 valve setup vs 8 is to slow dump speed not to save money or reduce fittings.