Noob with a daughters project

[lintcollector]

We made some progress yesterday, with the hope/dream of getting it licensed & legal this week. 2 things stopping us: horn & turn signal lights.

I went to work on the horn, following this excellent description/thread:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=711090

After borrowing a steering wheel puller from trusty "Barb" at AutoZone (AZ), who has been a help & resource as well, I removed the steering wheel and was looking at this dirty little gem:


We noticed the crack on the TS mechanism, so I went & pulled off the steering wheel from our donor truck, Floyd. Floyd has been a good resource before and came through again. I cleaned up the little bit of dirt/grime from Floyd's (left) and happily swapped out the parts, after buying a missing pin (highlighted in orange). Can't be going down the road with our turn signal on forever.


While I was working on the steering column, Goose went to work replacing both front brake calipers, from old rusted originals to AZ gems for $23 each. I was quite impressed she took it on and I had next to no involvement in the swap.


She then ended the night with adding seat belts, much to my wife's appreciation. Gotta keep mama happy and Goose safe after all.


We replaced one hose, the return hose for the power steering (blue arrows). Then, we also tested the one part of the project and heard sweet melodious noise/honk from the horn. The day was a success!


One down (horn), one to go (turn signals)

[lintcollector]

Got a few things done, then or maybe

We bled the brakes, put on the driver side wheel well cover, followed by the driver side fender. We added the air filter housing and things were getting better. Heck, we even installed the power steering reservoir and filled it, finding out that turning Bernie was easier, no weight training class for Goose after all. She even adjusted the starter wires so they weren't resting on the manifold.




Now that it was looking more like a truck, we decided to run up to a friends house who's helped a bit with the carburetor and is restoring an alfa romero. We pulled up and honked, showing the success of Saturday's work. His daughters came out excited to see Bernie and he came out. We finished our chat and went to pull away, and we may have peeled out a bit, then Bernie died.

There was NO power making it to the starter. We both poked and prodded, then I went to go under the truck. I haven't been under it since getting the exhaust system, so I went to take a look at the starter wires she adjusted. I literally heard a "sizzle sizzle" and then pain to my ear started. I just cooked the top of my ear on the exhaust pipes. Welcome 3rd degree burn.


That was not cool, but I had it confirmed my fat head doesn't fit under the truck as well when it's not jacked up. They helped push the truck back and I couldn't find anything causing the issue. I checked the starter and the wiring was ok, but one of the starter bolts was a bit loose, so maybe it was a good thing the truck died?

I chased spark for a while, and believe I isolated it to the Neutral Safety Switch. That little "gem" had issues in June, but I played chemist and cleaned it up well, or so I assumed. I think it's now officially dead.


I ordered a new one and Amazon will have it to me on Wednesday, so I hope that it'll start up then.

[Odaroloc]

Very nice! Im in the middle of working on my 69 c10, Ive never drove her ever. Bought it without an engine or trans. Keep up the good work and cant wait to see what you guys do next!

[cebra]

Did you paint the new calipers? If not, you may want to spray some paint on them as they come raw and will turn to solid rust in the first rain (same with other cast parts such as spindles, brake master cylinders, brake drums, etc).

[lintcollector]

Originally Posted by cebra

Did you paint the new calipers? If not, you may want to spray some paint on them as they come raw and will turn to solid rust in the first rain (same with other cast parts such as spindles, brake master cylinders, brake drums, etc).

No, we didn't paint the calipers, but we certainly will now. We had our brake master cylinder rust quickly due to the elements, no sense making something new look "vintage" too soon on the safety features. Thanks for the heads up!

[siggyfreud]

Use a caliper or other high temp paint, and really give it a good clean/degrease beforehand. They sometimes come with an oily film to prevent rusting while in the box, and though it can look like the paint sticks, it'll flake off over team.

The best solution is to get them powdercoated, but a good degrease/prep and high-temp paint will also suffice.

[lintcollector]

This week had a few good steps forward.

Goose traded out the Neutral Safety Switch for the new one, and it didn't work. I took it off and put it on correctly and no issues since, other than stalling as we shift it, so I need to play/learn the ways of the carburetor.

Bernie got some new tires installed this week, on Thursday to be exact. No pics of just the tires, but they're on there.

I put Goose to work getting the "face" off of the donor truck and while she was removing the grille and bumper, I cleaned up the driver side wiring, and installed the hood mounts.


Goose was going to have to go to work, so she took it on her maiden voyage around the neighborhood, which "happened" to include stopping by her non-boyfriend to show off the truck a bit.


We then came back and started the face lift, after some grinding a bolt & breaking a few others off. We got the grille on, and it did dress up the truck a bit, putting this 72 into a 70 front end look.


Her non-boyfriend came over while she was working to help get the bumper -put on. He was tired of doing stuff at his house and wanted to get his hands dirty, so I put him to task grinding the bumper to it'd fit onto Bernie. The donor truck was in a minor accident, so the bumper is well used & not quite straight, so a little help was needed so it'd fit.


Finally, about 9pm last night we put the 1972 Bernie into the 1970 grille/bumper. Now just to add the hood and bed. After that, make sure the blinkers work and we'll get it licensed/legal.


Still more to do, but hopefully legal on the roads by this time next week!

[notsolo]

Nice family project. Good progress...get it running and fix 1 thing at a time is a good way to go....other steering wheels will fit, if you have a pick and pull nearby.....steering wheel can be fixed with epoxy putty if you want to save it......my favorite photo is 3 sneakers sticking out from under the truck.

[lintcollector]

Found out today that my timing issues are from having the timing gears shot. I found 2 mechanics, age 75 & 80, who found the issue in no time, which wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I think this "rebuild" just went from stalled to dead . I don't have the $$ to redo the engine, so I may need to break my daughters heart and tell her it's Dead.

[68Gold/white]

If you lived closer, I’d be helping you all!!!

A timing chain/gears replacement is NOT an impossible job.

[Palf70Step]

Been a while on this. As others mentioned, timing chain not too bad to replace.

[Grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by lintcollector

Found out today that my timing issues are from having the timing gears shot. I found 2 mechanics, age 75 & 80, who found the issue in no time, which wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I think this "rebuild" just went from stalled to dead . I don't have the $$ to redo the engine, so I may need to break my daughters heart and tell her it's Dead.

Don't quit over a timing chain that can be replaced for about $100.00 and done in less than 1 day . Youtube is your friend use it for most any question you have rebuilding your truck . There is a video for every part of these old trucks ,

[nikwho]

Originally Posted by lintcollector

Found out today that my timing issues are from having the timing gears shot. I found 2 mechanics, age 75 & 80, who found the issue in no time, which wasn't what I wanted to hear.

I think this "rebuild" just went from stalled to dead . I don't have the $$ to redo the engine, so I may need to break my daughters heart and tell her it's Dead.

You can replace the timing set in an afternoon, certainly for less than $100! You can run to your local NAPA and they'll probably have a timing set in stock for $40. You can get the gaskets needed for $20. Very simple! Don't let such a simple repair kill your daughters dreams. Use it as a way to teach her some sticktoitiveness, or perseverance.

[nikwho]

I wish that you were closer! I'd bring a timing set and gaskets over and help get your timing set replaced! PM me if you'd like, with your address. I'm sure that I've got the timing set and gaskets needed to get that old rig running! I'll even mail them to you!

[lintcollector]

Palf70, Grumpy, & Nikwho,
You all have given me hope. Maybe I just don't quite understand or didn't convey what I understood.

I understood the gears that are dead are at the bottom of the engine, where the distributor connects with them. I understood it'd be taking the engine clear down into depth's I've never seen. Are the stripped cogs the timing chain, or are the "timing gears" different that with the timing chain?

I was also told it's likely the cam bearings and camshaft could also have issues.

I was told to fix or replace the engine would be upwards of $3k-$7k, and I don't have the pocketbook to cover that.

I don't have the tools to pull the rings or other such neat little gems, if necessary. Heck, I don't even have an engine hoist & mount to pull the engine...

Am I off in thinking it may be above my paygrade? I've changed timing belts on other vehicles (Hyundai Excel), but I thought the stripped cogs were harder to get too...

Thanks gents, the prognosis I was given was NOT happy or encouraging.

[nikwho]

So, the distributor gears mesh with the camshaft at the rear of the block. The timing set attaches to the face of the camshaft and the crank shaft snout, with chain that connects the two gears. The gears and chain collectively make up the "timing set". These are I the very front of the engine, behind the tin/sheet metal timing cover, which resides right behind the water pump.

[nikwho]

This picture was borrowed from the HAMB (Hokey Ass Message Board).

To replace the timing set, typically all/most of your belt driven accessories need to come off. So, remove fan, crank pulleys, harmonic balancer, and most difficult with a SBC, the oil pan has to at least drop down a bit in the front, to remove the timing cover, as the oil pan seals to the timing cover. Once the oil pan is dropped and the timing cover removed, I would make sure that the engine is at top dead center of the compression stroke at the #1 cylinder.

So, prior to removing your harmonic balancer, pull your valve covers. Rotate your engine to align the timing mark on the balancer with "0" on your timing tab. From there, rotate the engine back and forth (easiest with all plugs removed), and either #1 or #6 rocker arms will begin moving within 10°-20°. When they both move reciprocally, that is called "teeter". You want #6 on "teeter". If #1 is on teeter, rotate the engine 360°, and verify that cylinder #6 is on teeter. This verifies that #1 is on TDC of compression stroke. You can accomplish the same thing by sealing the #1 spark plug hole with your finger/thumb, and rotating the engine clockwise from standing in front, looking at your engine, or counter clockwise from drivers seat. When air forces its way out, as you approach TDC, you are on compression stroke. That feels like a three handed job to me, so I pop valve covers and verify by lack of valve movement immediately before or after TDC, or by verifying that #6 is on teeter. This is also a good time to mechanically verify your TDC mark, by using a piston stop, but either myself or someone else can help with that when the time comes. The small gear goes on the crank snout. It's keyed, so can go on only one way. Put it on with the obvious dot facing out. At TDC, this dot should be in the 12 o'clock position. Hang the timing chain on the bigger cam gear (with dot facing out) and rotate the camshaft so that the little peg aligns with the fourth hole in the gear, and index the gear/chain so that this dot is at the 6 o'clock position, perfectly aligned above the 12 o'clock dot on the crank gear. You may have to play with indexing and rotate the cam a little to get it perfect, but it's not hard. Torque the three camshaft timing gear bolts (I like to use red loctite, AND the little $3 plates that have the tabs that you fold up, to prevent the bolts from backing out. Once that is verified to be perfect, clean the old gasket material off of the block and timing cover, and reinstall the timing cover with a fresh gasket. I use black RTV. A tiny bit on each side of the gasket. Then reverse the order that you took the rest apart and press the balancer back on with an actual balancer installer! You can rent/borrow these for free from auto parts house, with a refundable deposit. After you button it all back up, verify that you're still at TDC, and then I (personal preference) rotate the engine to 10°-12° advance. Then I pull the distributor cap, loosen distributor clamp just enough that you can rotate the distributor, and then rotate your distributor so that the rotor inside points right at (or at leading edge of first contact) the #1 plug wire terminal on the cap. All of my distributors have a mark etched into the body right under the center line of the #1 spark plug wire terminal, so that I can index them to the #1 terminal with the cap off. That will get your timing very close to dead on! Then, after you fire it up, check for leaks and get it up to temperature, you can dial the timing in as needed, typically around 12° at idle, 36° "all in".



Reference: photo borrowed from post of user "Steel Rebel", located at: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...nging.1022260/

[nikwho]

Originally Posted by lintcollector

Palf70, Grumpy, & Nikwho,
You all have given me hope. Maybe I just don't quite understand or didn't convey what I understood.

I understood the gears that are dead are at the bottom of the engine, where the distributor connects with them. I understood it'd be taking the engine clear down into depth's I've never seen. Are the stripped cogs the timing chain, or are the "timing gears" different that with the timing chain?

I was also told it's likely the cam bearings and camshaft could also have issues.

I was told to fix or replace the engine would be upwards of $3k-$7k, and I don't have the pocketbook to cover that.

I don't have the tools to pull the rings or other such neat little gems, if necessary. Heck, I don't even have an engine hoist & mount to pull the engine...

Am I off in thinking it may be above my paygrade? I've changed timing belts on other vehicles (Hyundai Excel), but I thought the stripped cogs were harder to get too...

Thanks gents, the prognosis I was given was NOT happy or encouraging.

My personal opinion is that if you can change a Hyundai timing belt, you can change a SBC timing set! While it may be a bit overwhelming when you start, these engines are very simple, and it is not very complicated!

For all things building SBC's, I like to use the book How to Rebuild the Small Block Chevrolet. Barnes and Noble book stores typically have them in stock! It will walk you through every part of tear down, to rebuild. Plus, if later on you decide to do a full engine rebuild, it is the book that you want!

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/how...ton/1015146806

Now, depending on what happened to the engine, and how it failed, you may have other issues. Like pistons running into valves. I doubt that your cam bearings are destroyed. As timing chains wear out, they get longer. When they get long enough, they can skip a tooth, and throw your timing off. If the engine was turning, with a stationary camshaft, you MAY have bigger issues. A compression test SHOULD tell a bit of a story there, without pulling the heads.

IF it's distributor gears that are the issue, and ot the timing set, you'll need to swap the camshaft. Not much more work that the timing set! I'd do it, if I had an old engine with the stock camshaft in it, anyway. I doubt that you'll need cam bearings! The camshaft spins at half the speed of the main/rod bearings, and far less energy is transferred to the cam bearings. A cam swap is easy. I'd throw a cheap decent cam at it, like the SUM-1103K, for just over $100 for new camshaft and 16 new tappets. That's slightly more work (removing intake, losening rocker arms and removing pushrods), and involves a valve adjustment, but I'd be adjusting the valves on a tired old engine, anyway.

Those engines are pretty tough, though! I would try a timing set. You can do it with the engine in the truck (a few oil pan bolts will just be difficult), and see if it runs well. Then, I'd try to source a cheap SBC 350" block, and slowly collect parts to rebuild it, while driving and enjoying the truck! You can learn even more if you tackle the rebuild yourself. OR, not THAT long ago, I bought a remanned long block 350 from Summit Racing for $1,800. That engine ran quite well. You can generally rebuild one for considerably less. The aforementioned book will walk you through the process, and even get you speaking the correct language to go talk to a machinist, to have your machine work done.

[Getter-Done]

Here is a video.
Hope this helps.

Unplanned Chevy timing chain replacement on our...

[68Gold/white]

This is a big block, but same idea, still no worries....

[cj847]

Originally Posted by lintcollector

Palf70, Grumpy, & Nikwho,
You all have given me hope. Maybe I just don't quite understand or didn't convey what I understood.

I understood the gears that are dead are at the bottom of the engine, where the distributor connects with them. I understood it'd be taking the engine clear down into depth's I've never seen. Are the stripped cogs the timing chain, or are the "timing gears" different that with the timing chain?

I was also told it's likely the cam bearings and camshaft could also have issues.

I was told to fix or replace the engine would be upwards of $3k-$7k, and I don't have the pocketbook to cover that.

I don't have the tools to pull the rings or other such neat little gems, if necessary. Heck, I don't even have an engine hoist & mount to pull the engine...

Am I off in thinking it may be above my paygrade? I've changed timing belts on other vehicles (Hyundai Excel), but I thought the stripped cogs were harder to get too...

Thanks gents, the prognosis I was given was NOT happy or encouraging.

I am trying to read between the lines here. Does the motor run just not well or what? It is one thing if you timing chain has some slack or has jumped a tooth. It's different if the engine is known to be pretty well worn out. In my experience, when an engine needs a timing chain you generally need a new engine. It sounds like that is what the old guys were trying to tell you.

[Grumpy old man]

Guys stop with the horror stories . it's a father daughter project , Let's help him get thru a timing change and tune up before we go off on rebuilding engines .

[88Stanger]

You were able to do alot of things that some would never have attempted and you two got them all done! I tried to read through all the comments and all of them have validity to them. I fully understand your nervousness with this engine issue, but as others have mentioned, you two can do this. Will it be easy, no, but not real hard either. Will it take time, yes, but can you do it, yes, Heck Yes! Not that you need to buy an engine lift, but you can typically rent them. But you can do most if not all that is needed with the engine in place.
There is a book I bought many years ago on how to rebuild a small block Chevy, HPBooks is the publisher and it is by David Vizard. They have it a Amazon. There are several others also that you can get, but the basic book is great, it leads you through a small block chevy from start to finish. This may help you feel a bit easier about this, i know it did for me. Now I have 10 or so of these style books (yes I am old Fashioned and like actual books lol) Just hang in there.
FYI those engine cost you listed are a high for a small standard rebuild honestly, and you may not need any of that. and just to back that up, a rebuilt 350 from Jegs is $1850.00. So, just take a min and you can do this. The father daughter thing is just priceless honestly. There are so many on here that will be willing to help where we can.

[cj847]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

Guys stop with the horror stories . it's a father daughter project , Let's help him get thru a timing change and tune up before we go off on rebuilding engines .

I'm with you grumpy. I love the father daughter build (I have 2 daughters). I love the big block and would like to see it saved. It's just that I am the master of "good money after bad". I just want him to diagnose the situation completely before spending.

It seems the motor had good compression 4 years ago, and hasn't been driven that much since. So that is a good sign. If it wasn't smoking bad and wasn't knocking, then certainly a timing chain replacement would be well worth the cost.

[68Gold/white]

I not reading here anywhere, that the engine is bad, just in need of a timing set
Replacement. There may be some over eager presumptions by more than one person That the engine is likely bad. It may NOT be bad. Yes it has some miles on it. It only has to run good, and be safe. It’s not going to be a racer/hot rod deal.

Lint, pet get this done!!!