Make it handle

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by aggie91

Rob,

OK, After reading thru you post (#1947), I have another approach I would like some advise on for my next build. I have a bunch of parts already just waiting to be used, so here is what I plan to put together. This would work for any '63-'72 truck since the suspensions are the same for those years...

Front:

Recessed the stock cross member up into the frame 1.5"
Porterbuilt Forward Lower arms (2013 versions)
Stock Upper Arms
Air Bags (could go to stock coil springs)
13" C4 Corvette Brakes on 2.5" drop spindles (from way2lo)
Upper Shock Mount relocated
Shocks - Would like to use Ridetech HQ series adjustable shocks, OR? (Don't have shocks yet)
1.25" Porterbuilt sway bar for the forward arms
No Limits Steering Rack Conversion Kit


Rear:

Modify rear rails (like you did with JT) to lower the rear
Air Bags (could go to 2"-4" lower coil springs)
Pan Hard bar - From mount is extended and has multiple holes for setting height, keep it long so that it mounts to Passenger side Trailing Arm at the end, Mount has 3 locations to help set height and keep the bar parallel at ride height.
Sway Bar - Don't have this yet so I am open to suggestions, Price might be a deciding factor.
Brakes: 12" C4 Corvette single piston, with drum in hat parking brake.

At this point, I am planning some sort of 18" or 20" wheel/tire combination, just not sure on tire sizing for the front or rear, any suggestions?

I fully understand that the performance of the suspension with be limited, but at this point so is my driving The truck will mostly be a fun driver that I can daily if I want to, but there will be an Autocross event for fun (Good Guys, local events, etc...) from time to time...

What other low cost changes would you recommend to maximize what I have to work with already? Taller Upper Ball Joints, etc...

Any advise would be great, I have a bunch of parts that I want to use and only spend money (with in reason) on what I don't have on hand to build my next truck.

Karl, this is really similar to the #4 version of the JT (bags on all 4). Our plan with the JT was to see how far we could take a 'stock' based chassis. Looks like your plan has better brakes. While 'vette stuff works great on 'vettes, remember the a C4 weighed in at 3100 wet, with 50/50 balance. The OE 12" brake from a 73-87 has more potential brake torque than the vette parts, but they are heavier. Just FYI. Would be a fun driver.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by PMDc

Rob,

Thank you for the wealth of information you have unselfishly provided here. Prior to reading this I was thinking I could modify my stock suspension enough to reach my goals but you have a future customer now. For the same money as other stock frame suspension mods on the market, I can get corrected geometry suspension using the Wide Ride IFS and Rear Fat Bar systems from No Limit.

While I'm saving up for this upgrade I have all of the basic knowledge of what can be expected from stock parts and cheap mods. Awesome, awesome thread!

THANK YOU!
-Pat

Thanks Pat. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, or say that "this is the only way", but I also don't want to watch everybody learn the hard way, it's expensive and disappointing. Plan your build, build you plan.

[aggie91]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Karl, this is really similar to the #4 version of the JT (bags on all 4). Our plan with the JT was to see how far we could take a 'stock' based chassis. Looks like your plan has better brakes. While 'vette stuff works great on 'vettes, remember the a C4 weighed in at 3100 wet, with 50/50 balance. The OE 12" brake from a 73-87 has more potential brake torque than the vette parts, but they are heavier. Just FYI. Would be a fun driver.

So, would the taller upper ball joints give me any benefit? Looking thru my stash of parts, that is one item I will need to purchase. Stock or taller?

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by aggie91

So, would the taller upper ball joints give me any benefit? Looking thru my stash of parts, that is one item I will need to purchase. Stock or taller?

A taller ball joint will give you a little more camber gain under compression. If you are going to buy new uppers, you may as well get tall ones. Not too much more $$ for the benefit.

[aggie91]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

A taller ball joint will give you a little more camber gain under compression. If you are going to buy new uppers, you may as well get tall ones. Not too much more $$ for the benefit.

Thanks Rob!

[jfnar]

Here's a simple question that may have already been addressed but I don't have time to read through 79 pgs of posts and the search didn't find anything. I have a 68 swb with coil rear springs. It sits unlevel so I think I need to replace the springs. What's the best replacement coil spring to get the best ride on a stock height truck? No racing or hauling, just driving. Thanks.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by jfnar

Here's a simple question that may have already been addressed but I don't have time to read through 79 pgs of posts and the search didn't find anything. I have a 68 swb with coil rear springs. It sits unlevel so I think I need to replace the springs. What's the best replacement coil spring to get the best ride on a stock height truck? No racing or hauling, just driving. Thanks.

Moog.

[LostMy65]

Earlier, when talking about x braces, what about the 60-62 x-frame; would it be enough in its stock form to negate the need for boxing and x bracing?

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by LostMy65

Earlier, when talking about x braces, what about the 60-62 x-frame; would it be enough in its stock form to negate the need for boxing and x bracing?

The 60-61 OE SWB is one of the best GM ever made. It simply cost too much $$. Using one of these is a pretty good start, but the cab and core mounts are different 60-62, 63-66, 67-72, so it's not a direct swap.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by jfnar

Here's a simple question that may have already been addressed but I don't have time to read through 79 pgs of posts and the search didn't find anything. I have a 68 swb with coil rear springs. It sits unlevel so I think I need to replace the springs. What's the best replacement coil spring to get the best ride on a stock height truck? No racing or hauling, just driving. Thanks.

So my first question is, Is it the front springs, or the rear springs? Park on level ground and then jack the front up until the tires are off the ground. Put jack stands under the front frame at even heights, so that the frame is level side-to-side on the stands. (isolating the rear). then check the rear spring heights. Then reverse the process and check the front spring heights.

[LostMy65]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

The 60-61 OE SWB is one of the best GM ever made. It simply cost too much $$. Using one of these is a pretty good start, but the cab and core mounts are different 60-62, 63-66, 67-72, so it's not a direct swap.

Sorry, I should have gave more info.
My 65 is already on a 62 swb frame.
I was considering putting it back on a 63-66 frame, but after reading in these forums, I was wondering if I am further ahead just keeping my 65 on the 62 frame.

[DMiller307]

Looking for suggestions on suspension modifications for my 57 dubl-duti. Has a small block 350 and auto overdrive tranny. 104" wheelbase 3/4 ton.

Thanks, Dan

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by DMiller307

Looking for suggestions on suspension modifications for my 57 dubl-duti. Has a small block 350 and auto overdrive tranny. 104" wheelbase 3/4 ton.

Thanks, Dan

We have done these using our Wide-Ride IFS kits. Air or C/O. The rack has to be changed to a Flaming River billit rack so that it can be rotated to point the rack input "up and forward". We only have 5 or 6 lug hubs for these IFS units, no 8 lug.

[GlennL]

So how much shorter are you guys going with steering colum on the 67-72 with the No Limit Wide Ride front kit?
I cut 3" off so far and I am thinking another 2 will be needed. Want to push the steering wheel forward a bit while shortening the stickout past the firewall.

[AustinBelair]

Man, you guys are way more advanced than I am. I am working on my 87 short bed and really want to make it handle. My dream would new crossmembers, coilovers front and rear, big sways etc but I will never be able to afford that. One of my daily drivers is a supercharged newer Camaro with a bunch of suspension mods and I love it.

My 87 has CPP tubular uppers with Moog BJ's, completely rebuilt lower arms with 1" Belltech springs and I have a 1-3/8" sway bar that I have not installed yet. All of the other front suspension is brand new. The truck rides great in the front but HORRIBLE in the rear. Like really hard. I know it's an old truck and won't ride like a caddy but this is to the point where I think something is very wrong with the rear leafs or there is some kind of bind.

I've asked other people with squares if I could push down on their truck in the rear and I can move theirs up and down. If you try to push down on mine, it doesn't budge. I hate it.

Should I remove a leaf? Ii put new AC Delco rear "Stock replacement" shocks on the rear and it did not change it. I have Eibach 2" drop shackles on it now and they did not alter the ride at all.

I would love the Ridetech rear mono-leaf springs but at $800+ for them, I can't swing that.

Are there any other things I can do? Any donor trucks with the same leafs that I can make a "Bastard pack" out of that will ride better? A good 4 link rear coilover kit that doesn't require a frame c-notch?

[Wikid61]

Try to stick with a reasonable aproach, and you'l get good results. If you start with the leafs, lets say that the top spring with the eye is #1, and the count down from there to the shortest #6. Keep 1,2, & 3. pull #4, keep #5, pull #6. Use a hand gringer/sander to round off and radius the ends of the springs. Get some teflon liner to put between the leafs (speedway, Eaton, ..) and reassemble. Call Helwig and get a 1" rear sway bar. From RideTech, use pt # ARK2004, with a shrader fill kit. ~Thats Rob's quote from page 18 of this thread. When you tighten the bolts that run through the eyelets of the springs, the vehicle's tires need to be on the ground to prevent preloading/bind.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by AustinBelair

Man, you guys are way more advanced than I am. I am working on my 87 short bed and really want to make it handle. My dream would new crossmembers, coilovers front and rear, big sways etc but I will never be able to afford that. One of my daily drivers is a supercharged newer Camaro with a bunch of suspension mods and I love it.

My 87 has CPP tubular uppers with Moog BJ's, completely rebuilt lower arms with 1" Belltech springs and I have a 1-3/8" sway bar that I have not installed yet. All of the other front suspension is brand new. The truck rides great in the front but HORRIBLE in the rear. Like really hard. I know it's an old truck and won't ride like a caddy but this is to the point where I think something is very wrong with the rear leafs or there is some kind of bind.

I've asked other people with squares if I could push down on their truck in the rear and I can move theirs up and down. If you try to push down on mine, it doesn't budge. I hate it.

Should I remove a leaf? Ii put new AC Delco rear "Stock replacement" shocks on the rear and it did not change it. I have Eibach 2" drop shackles on it now and they did not alter the ride at all.

I would love the Ridetech rear mono-leaf springs but at $800+ for them, I can't swing that.

Are there any other things I can do? Any donor trucks with the same leafs that I can make a "Bastard pack" out of that will ride better? A good 4 link rear coilover kit that doesn't require a frame c-notch?

Look into Chris Alston's Chassis-Works for the original bolt-on KP Compnents 4-bar set-up. That gets you the bracketry for bolting in the 4-bar. Then find some weld-on coil-over brackets for installing coil-overs. I would go w/Ridetech for the C/O's.

[robnolimit]

Take a look at out 73-87 FatBar rr suspension kits. - you do have to weld brackets to the axle.

***My 87 has CPP tubular uppers with Moog BJ's, completely rebuilt lower arms with 1" Belltech springs and I have a 1-3/8" sway bar that I have not installed yet. All of the other front suspension is brand new. The truck rides great in the front but HORRIBLE in the rear. Like really hard. I know it's an old truck and won't ride like a caddy but this is to the point where I think something is very wrong with the rear leafs or there is some kind of bind.***

Probably not in a bind, just how it was made. a 1/2 ton was expected to carry 1000 lbs of cargo, + 150 lbs of tools/support gear (GM spec) AND three (yes three) adults (so another 600 lbs. You could est that 1/2 of the weight of people and tools would be carried on the front suspension (so about 375) but then they built the rear to carry another 1375 ABOVE the empty truck. (not counting the overloads, or HD trailer springs). You need to reduce the spring rate if you want it to ride good. you can try pulling a leaf or two. One of the longer ones and a shorter one. a little wrench time, but no $$. (well, probably a new center bolt) - you can use an allen head cap screw.

[Andyking1203]

I'm building a 68 c10 swb, I'm thinking I wanna go coil o era front and rear (no limit setups for both ends), what's the advantage of spending this kinda money vs semi stock suspension ( itll be lowered, tubular a arms and tubular trailing arms)? They're is no road course racen up here in the north east... thanks

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by Andyking1203

I'm building a 68 c10 swb, I'm thinking I wanna go coil o era front and rear (no limit setups for both ends), what's the advantage of spending this kinda money vs semi stock suspension ( itll be lowered, tubular a arms and tubular trailing arms)? They're is no road course racen up here in the north east... thanks

This is a great question, and we hear this a lot. There are a few things to consider, and this will help make the best choice for you. Here are some comparisons that I put together this morning.

No Limit Chassis Pack has both front and rear suspensions, motor mounts, trans mount and a P/B kit for your truck. Price is $5195. This will net a 5/7 drop. Using Ridetech or Viking coil-overs. Keep in mind this includes new 12" front brakes, a power rack and pinion steering and front sway bar. Some welding is required for the rear suspension install. (if you choose a 4-bar) no welding with the Trailing arm package. There is a 3" gain in front ground clearance at the bottom of the crossmember and the total IFS swap cuts 215 lbs. The motor will go up 1" (for rack and pinion clearance) so the exhast may need to be modified.


From one popular manufacturer I was able to piece together a front and rear suspension package with coil-overs, drop spindles, dick brakes and a front sway bar. $4636 These parts bolt directly to the OE mounts on the truck. they advertise this as a 4/6 drop. No steering upgrade. This company has mixed reviews. Stock mounts means stock geometry so the performance improvements are minimal - but, the new A-arms would have new bushings and ball joints which would tighten up the truck compared to 50 yr old parts.

Another site had a package for $5725. This is for front suspension (Drop spindles, A-Arms and coil-overs and mounts) and a complete rear trailing arm set up with coil-overs. No brakes in front and no steering upgrades. This company is well known and has a reputation for quality USA made parts. 100% bolt-on install. Again, with all OE mounting points, the suspension geometry is very close to stock (except lowered) the crossmember clearance is the same, as is the motor placement.

One advantage (for some) of the 'bolt on upgrade' kits is that they can be purchased one piece at a time, so you can step in a little at a time. Where as with a total front or rear suspension upgrade, it all has to be changed at one shot. (more cash up front)

**** I discuss this with a lot of people all of the time. The one thing that most of us forget is how old these trucks really are. The geometry of a 67-72 suspension is really the same as a 60-62 (I know, I know, not the same, but, the suspension pivit points are identical, and so is the spindle geometry). These were first for sale in mid 1959. 8 months of pre-production, 9 months testing, 1 yr tooling, 1 yr engineering, and 1 yr design puts the technology date of these somewhere in 1955. Yes, the suspension geometry on a 67-72 chey truck was put on paper in 1955. So, as far as the tech goes, your C10 is from the fifties. Worse yet, this geometry design stayed until 1988. So, the last squarebody in 1987 had the same basic geometry (yes, updated with rubber bushings and disk brakes, but the same geometry) as the 1960, designed in 1955. So, in reality, how good do you really think bolt on parts can improve this? And, how far do you want to go? You don't need to go road racing to want a nice driving truck. Food for thought. Thanks ****

[Andyking1203]

Thanks for the response rob!! So what I'm getting from this, is that coil overs front and rear (again no limit setups, most likely the 4 bar and the ifs system). The kit I'm looking at on your site came out a little more then you mentioned, do to ls mounts and what not, which is no big deal. Does this also include rear brakes? I didn't see any options.

[67_ShortFleet]

Should my track bar mount be here or below the lowering block?

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by 67_ShortFleet

Should my track bar mount be here or below the lowering block?

With blocks you have some choices. Above or below the block, also, the U-mount can go above (as you have it) or below the plate. The goal is to try to get it level at ride height. (with all of the weight on the suspension)

[67_ShortFleet]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

With blocks you have some choices. Above or below the block, also, the U-mount can go above (as you have it) or below the plate. The goal is to try to get it level at ride height. (with all of the weight on the suspension)

Thanks Rob

[Chevy Punk]

Hi Rob, thank you for this mass of info and for the fantastic parts! Do you make a kit for a frame mounted master cylinder for 72 c10? I saw it in one of your chassis videos and it looks like the exact setup I want.