Gas Guzzlers.. Don't Believe What They Say!

[raiden7800]

I was up at about 3 AM, typed in "old cars" on google image search, and came across an aritcle about crushing old cars, here:


http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3Doff%26sa%3DN



In the article, the author states that in 2002 (when the article was written) the state of california was trying to achieve zero emissions. Thus to reduce smog and dirty air. He goes on to state that state legislature had a bill that would require all automakers to produce ZEVs, or zero emissions vehicles. Since the automakers would obviously not be able to do that, they decided that for every pre 1970 car crushed, or "recycled" they would recieve a $2500 credit. The reason being that they are gas guzzlers, and produce alot of emissions that we are currently having problems with. I agreed with just about everything the author said, but I decided that I would like to add a bit more to the topic of my own.

That being said, I know we are on here because we drive our old gas guzzlers right? Or are at least building them. On the basis of fuel mileage alone, compare vehicles from say 1965 to 1995. 30 years of change, and "improvements". It must not have been many improvements, because all I can see, is vehicles that are harder and more expensive to work on, and get no better mileage than our 60s era vehicles.

I don't believe that car mechanics needed to be evolved so much. Computers need'nt be in our vehicles. Our old trucks run just fine, and when they dont, it doesnt take a bunch of time to figure out what is wrong with it. A good running old car, gets as good of mileage as a good running car nowadays. Variable Valve Timing aside, new cars dont have any more horsepower, torque, or mileage than our old stuff. Worst case scenario, put a catalytic converter on there, and leave it at that. You can only burn gasoline so clean, after that, burnt gas is burnt gas. If they truly wanted to make a difference, and clean up the air, they would make vehicles that run on a water demolecularization (i know that is spelled wrong) system, that spereates oxygen from hydrogen, burns them both, and then takes the water and puts it back in a tank. There are no wastes, and no pullution. Plus, we have alot more water lying around than oil.

There are people all over the world that have made water systems for their vehicles, and the big corporations shut them down. Instead of embracing an idea, they buy it and kill it. If people can make water systems for their cars in their backyards, then why cant multimillion dollar companies like the big 3, or Volvo, or Honda make those systems? Seems kinda funny to me.

The gentleman that wrote the article above made some great points. What good will destroying all of the old cars do? We don't drive them all that often, and even when we do, its not like we are getting any worse mileage in our 65 Burb than a 95 burb. A 350 V8 can only get so many mpg, it doesnt matter how many computers you put on it. My points and condensor 292 I6 will pull just as hard as any new smallblock, and I dont have to worry about the 50 thousand wires running to and from the engine compartment.

Think of all the money wasted on programming computers, making computer systems, outfitting sensors for the computers to read, self diagnosis systems, all of that leading to a single "Check Engine Light". Check engine means Check your engine. Not, your gas cap is loose, or your air bag sensor has been disconnected. One sensor goes out, and the car either wont run, or tries to self compensate with another unit, and they both go dead.

I am a mechanic, as are probably 99% of all of you reading this, and if there is one thing I hate, is sensors. Vacuum lines arent so bad, but sensors, all it takes is 1 single wire, 1 hidden fusible link, 1 solder joint, and the car won't run. It takes a wallet full of 50s to fix, and the fix is only guaranteed until the next circuit becomes brittle, the next hidden fusible link pops, or connector falls off.

When I bought my truck it didnt run. In 20 minutes, I had it running. Albeit not that well, but running nonetheless. I have a friend who owns a 67 Bel Air that I gave him, we drove around, and parked, got back in, wouldnt start. A few hammers on the carb to knock the float loose, and we were on our way. Another friend owns a 89 Acura integra "crap sack" (hatch back). Drove to wal-mart, it wouldnt start. almost 2 months later, it still wont start. After a distributor, coil, igniter, brainbox, and PGMFI relay, it still wont start. It is sitting now at an electrical shop, and they have no idea. Start droppin 50s, and they will fix it, but for how long?

Anyways,its 330, I should go to sleep. Anyone who has had the paitience to read this far, please leave a comment, I would love to hear what everyone here agrees with me on.

Rob

[Chevy Fleetside]

I am putting an 88 TBI engine in my truck with computer. A bit easier then newer cars I am sure. I was thinking about putting cats in it just so it would run cleaner when I did drive it.. Just my part in cleaner air..

[Walts_restoration]

I drive V8s now, ill drive them till i die, at least old cars. If gas ever gets too high, guess whos buying a corvair?

[hewlett2002000]

all this computer **** is just to make money. and also did you know that all gm cars made after 2002 have a black box in them? i mean hell my friends new ford ranger has GPS locater in it. it had to be repossessed so he took it and hid it out at a other friends house and they showed up there. all a load of ****. another friend of mine has a 55 chevy with a 265 and glide and he gets 16 city and 20 highway. myself i only get 12 but hey thats cause my engine is not stock. i completely agree with you. my dad has a 1990 cadillac eldorado that he just cancelled the insurance on and its just sitting. and its gonna continue to sit there cause its not running because of computer and electrical problems and hes tired of putting money into it. give me a hot wire to the coil and a switch to the solenoid and im happy.
John

[ElkyRacer]

Well, I guess Ill be the first to dissagree with you, AND the article. I just want to start off, that I LOVE automobiles. This is my life, in just about every form. Cars, trucks, bikes, ect ect, Im very interested in it ALL. Old and new. I am not biased in ANY way to EITHER side of the fence for one reason or another.

Now, for the matter at hand.

Scraping old cars, does nothing. When they cant determine which 'old' cars on the road are just causing more problems, and which 'old' cars on the road have been kept in a good running state and dont create any more harmfull emissions than when built, then its a loose loose deal. Crushing a car just because its 'old' is an easy way out of a hot topic for a narrow minded fool. And thats just plain wrong.

As for this new crap with all of its 'wires' and 'sensors' and 'computers' and crap, its the best thing to happen.

Rob, just curious your age and what kind of mechanical work you do?

Most of the older generation, is going to hate EFI, and love the old simple carbs. Its what they grew up on, learned, played with, and its what they know. People dont like change. Me Ive owned 2 carb'ed vehicles, including my 64 truck. And if I werent going with a period specific custom, I would have a newer model EFI motor in it in a heartbeat. Why? DRIVEABILITY, fuel mileage, emissions(if that matters), longevity, and POWER. See, with all the advancements in trying to make a car more efficiant, get better mileage with more power while releasing few emissions, it has been done! Gone are the 'sticking floats' of a carb every month or so, or the early morning first starts with the choke full on, you think a rich idle for so long is great for emissions? Or gas mileage for that matter? A EFI vehicle? It does the same thing in the morning, except its a lot smarter than you. It knows exactly what tempurature the motor is at, and the ambient temp outside, it knows exactly how long and how much extra fuel it takes to get the motor/emissions systems up and running at regular operating temps. Does your carb do that? No, your carb knows for how much air it takes in, an x amount of fuel is drawn out. Its a regulated air/fuel leak. And EFI system will give the motor just the right amount of fuel going down the street, up a hill, WAY up in the hills, on a cold day, on a warm day, for whatever condition it may see, it keeps the A/F ratio just right. A carb? Nope, its set one time, and it will have that setting no matter what the conditions. The EFI in a SMALL way will take up a bit of slack for a improperly tuned or maintained engine. When it gets too far out of whack, you get a CHECK ENGINE LIGHT. Will a carb tell you when the car is loosing compression, or has an exhaust leak? How about jumped timing? Nope, and normal people in the world wouldnt know it either. Thats why the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT is there. To inform the driver something is wrong, and needs to be checked. Granted, a LOT of people would just drive with this light on FOREVER. But its there for a reason. That in its own part, cuts down on harmfull emissions, and helps with fuel mileage, and as well, driveability.

As for fuel economy then vs now. Just look. OK, your buddys bel air with the 265 got 16/20. My wifes mustang, aprox the same size engine a 4.6, gets 20/25. And Ive got a feeling even tho is a Mustang and its a turd(it really is!) it would probably blow the doors off that old Bel Air right now, with the AC on and the windows up. Heck, the V6 Mustang of the same year would do the same thing! And get even BETTER mileage than what we get!

Lets take the GM flagship then and now as well. An older Vette, 427, highest HP rating of that model, what maybe 450 horse? Oh wait thats measured diffrently now. Measured in todays standards, that motor would probably put out around 385 horse. Compare that to the newer Vette, which has a 427 also. Its rating, almost 500hp. Rate it in the old school way, and it would probably be 575! What does that old 427 Vette get for mileage? Id be suprised even with the lightweight car its in if it got mid teens for highway, Im pretty sure you wouldnt be breaking out of the single digits for in town. The newer Vette? Mid to high teens in town, mid to high 20s out on the road. HOW'D THEY DO THAT?

Thats just one instance, the more affordable higher powered cars are the same. Camaro/Trans am, nowadays are putting out 300+ hp stock, and people have reported almost 30mpg on the highway! Mustangs, 300 horse, high 20s on interstate, and run just what those big bad old big block cars ran back in the day, with almost HALF the cubes!

The little cars built for mileage, they do exactly that. They arent made to run balls to the wall, they are not fast, nor are the meant to be, but I bet most of them will whip up on most of the older 'economy' cars of the day.

And as for your 'black boxes' and your 'they are following me' crap, do you honestly think that someone is watching your vehicles every move at every second of the day? That 'black box' has been showing up in cars since the late 90s. Ive done a LOT and I mean a LOT of street racing(this is just and example, lets not start a war about this either), a lot of was with newer cars that had those so called 'black boxes'. We were doing something illegal, VERY illegal and at the time was a very hot subject for many people/officials/police depts, ect. If there was ever a time to use that 'black box' for anything, it would have been then. And accident during that happened, but the 'black box' never changed anything.

As for a repo man and his job, well, thats his job. He did not find your friends ranger by the GPS chip in it. They are just like detectives, they stake out, they follow you and your friends, whatever they must do to find the vehicle to repo. Trust me, I know a few. Its not that advanced of a deal.

Its not that bad of a deal guys, its nothing to be feared or hated. You want to know why? Because its here, to stay and you might as well get adjusted to it. The advancements made in the past 20 years have brought some great stuff. Sure, its more complicated, and you must know what you are working with, and thats the key. Dealer Techs have it better than they ever did. Proper training combined with the self diagnostic systems found at dealerships now, have made it much much easier for most Techs to do their job, quickly.

Its here for a reason, and its not to 'screw you' with computers or high priced equipment.

Kyle

[19GMC63]

Originally Posted by Walts_restoration

I drive V8s now, ill drive them till i die, at least old cars. If gas ever gets too high, guess whos buying a corvair?

and guess who's getting their corvair running again?

[Chevy Fleetside]

Well said Kyle...

[Walts_restoration]

I agree with modern cars being efficent. I never said screw the computer, i admit that i like efi toys also, i was thinking about buying an 87 camaro TPI motor just so i could buy a project to put it in. I like carbs because thats what i currently have on everything, I said V8s for life, not carbs-4-life.

Good idea with the corvair, i can handle the prices now, im a high schooler, i need my v8, them hondas in the parking lot need to see the alpha-male, haha.

The technoligy for the newer styles of making a vehicle work more efficently are out there, the oil companys dont like to let this technoligy surface for the damage it could do to their business, and they wont be getting any money for corn based fuels, the farmers will.

[raiden7800]

Did you read the article past the title?

I agree with Fleetside, Very Nicely said. I am 19 years old, and have had my fair share of vehicles in the last few years. To be perfectly honest, I believe that you may have the horsepower rating backwards. Horsepower used to be measured at the ground, as opposed to at the flywheel like they do today, so that old Vette measuring 450 hp, was getting 450 at the ground, and most likely had 8-10% more than that at the flywheel. The new Zo6 Vette is rated at 505 hp yes, but it is at the flywheel, not the ground, so the hp increase isnt a huge jump, 5-10 hp, or vanity hp is what I like to call it.

The reason I dont like these cars with sensors and computers, is because of how they have used them. If they had made the computer systems in ways that are straightforward and don't require a 1 thousand dollar computer to analyze, then it wouldnt be so bad. People fear change, when the change is much more complicated than need be.

As for longevity, the new cars havent been on the road long enough to prove longevity, so I really cant remark on that, but I do agree with your choke in the morning point. I know all vehicles arent like mine, and a fuel injected vehicle when operating properly may or may not run more efficiently despite altitude changes, but we have been running cars that have had carbs and simple to operate ignition systems since the later 19 teens. This required people to actually pay attention to their car, and LEARN how to know when something is wrong. Thats what gauges are for. Sure, alot of new cars have gauges, but they are electronic, and let me tell you first hand, all it takes is 1 bad wire, or solder joint, and they might as well not be there. I install Car Stereos for Best Buy. I have seen the interior dashboard on just about every kind of car here that you can imagine, from f*^% aspires to datsun Z cars, Ive put a radio in it, been under the hood of it, and crawled around in it.

I guess I am just old fashioned, but those computers have also de-educated alot of the people nowadays. You used to be able to walk up to almost any person, and they would know what was wrong just by hearing, or riding with you when the problem occurred, now, if you hear something funny, its off to the repair shop you go.

I can think of one instance where a sensor was (eeek) helpful. Just recently, my girlfriends F&^* Exploder speed sensors were messed up on the overdrive unit, meaning that the sensor telling the computer what speed it was turning, in relation to a sensor placed in the rear end telling what speed the wheels were spinning at, was not matching. So the Overdrive light started flashing, and the reason why, is because the overdrive unit started to over compensate for the speed difference, and basically, started comitting suicide. So now, 1900 dollars later, it has a rebuilt tranny. The reason why it had to be rebuilt? The sensors hadnt been reading correctly for some time, and hadnt until recently tripped the sensor. If it had just been a speedometer cable, and no sensors, her transmission would have been just fine. This is all according to the guys at the repair shop who just made 1900 bucks due to faulty sensors.

One thing that we havent factored into our discussion is also wear and tear. I have a 1984 Volvo 245, it has 319k miles on it, and still achieves 23 mpg in town, 26 on the freeway. Look it up, that is numerically above what they were originally rated for! If all the old cars were mechanically sound like they were brand new from the factory, and people didnt drive them like the accelerator was stuck, believe me, that old 283 V8 in the Bel Air gets an easy 15 in town and 20+ on the freeway. As far as racing a Mustang against Bel Air, the Bel Air IS NOT A SPORTS CAR! It is a passenger car, with a carrying capacity of 6, not 4 or less. Not to mention, that the mustang either has a 4 speed auto, or 5 speed manual trans, compared to a 2 spd. powerglide, well yea, Im sure that newer lighter mustang would beat it, Id be amazed if it didn't. A Honda Civic can beat it, but you cant load up a honda civic with 1300 lbs of people and stuff, and then drive cross country can you, and neither can you with the mustang.

I had a mustang once, it was a 1976 Mustang II Ghia, with a factory 302. That old mustang beat the pants off every new mustang I rolled up to, and if you look, those years were the worst for V8 horsepower ratings! I think it measured at about 140hp at the ground, the new mustangs are rated far above that at the flywheel, so how is it, that an older one tears it up with a lower rating? They weigh comparatively, carry the same amount of people, and mine had the 3spd auto trans.

Sports cars used to be used for sports driving, not, I drive to work in it. The same is true nowadays, except that every vehicle today is outfitted with something to entertain the kids. Automakers were forced to do something because they were, and still are losing money!

If you have a car that has an electrical part such as a sensor or computer go out, and you dont know it, replacing the unit is the only way to tell, unfortuantely, you cannot return electrical parts. And some of these 500-1000 dollar parts may not end up being the problem at all, but you are still stuck with them, and the non functioning vehicle.

Newer cars that boast better mileage turn me away mainly due to sticker prices. You may get 50-60 mpg in your prius, but I can buy a bunch of gas for that 300-400 dollar monthly car payment.

Rob

[19GMC63]

Originally Posted by raiden7800

Newer cars that boast better mileage turn me away mainly due to sticker prices. You may get 50-60 mpg in your prius, but I can buy a bunch of gas for that 300-400 dollar monthly car payment.

Rob

plus, newer cars are of course more complicated, thus requiring more parts to be manufactured and assembled. That, of course takes energy/resources, and those factories produce their own emissions. Sure, EPA guidelines have changed for the better in the past 40 years, but is it really worth producing one newer vehicle instead of keeping one older vehicle on the road?

[60ratrod]

i have to agree with most of you. now for my part. new computerized cars. they are ok. more fuel efficient. but more cramped in the engine bay, and damn near impossible to work on with out a hand held diagnostic tool. and even then you have to have the maintenance manual in order to decipher the code. i had to replace the intake manifold gasket on my 93 ford probe, and there were some bolts that not even my little sister would have been able to reach. and to replace the alternator i have to take off the front passenger wheel.

now old vehicles. down side to them is they generally don't get good mileage, so more and more people are starting to look towards all of these more efficient cars that if you sneeze in the wrong direction you get a check light. the older vehicles are easier to work on. now granted they still give you a few head scratchers, but that's why we joined this forum correct? and as most enthusiasts here will agree, the low mpg is just part of the fun of having that hotrod!!

[ClassicAutoResto]

All I restore at my company are pre 73 cars and trucks. If I had to rebuild emissions equipped vehicles instead of classics, I would do something else. My current driver is a 99 s10, When the 65 shop truck gets done, 99 goes up for sale. I will never buy a new vehicle again, no matter what the cost for fuel. I turn away newer rebuild jobs all the time, not worth the extra hassles I M O.

Jerry

[sanford66]

Raiden is right! Good job man! I was a mechanic for a used car dealer for a year and a half. Worked on all that newer junk, didn't like it.

[PrerunnerRob]

I'm on the fence on this issue, I see both sides to it. On one hand, you have simplicity with some wasted fuel, and on the other hand you have a fuel efficient technological wonder that is not at all user friendly. I would take simplicity most of the time, but if you believe that computer controls are here just to screw you, take a look at the diesel tuning market as far as programmers are concerned. They can unleash hundreds of horsepower while lowering exhaust gas temps, and increase fuel effiency dramatically. There is absolutely no way that would be possible by just guesstimating the fuel/boost/turbo vane position without multiple sensors. Sensors aren't that bad to deal with, each one has a defined paramater in which it has to operate, and you can usually check operation with a simple handheld meter. I will never buy another new truck again('01 SIlverado), but my main beef is that trucks are not made to be used as trucks anymore, but thats a whole different subject.

Just my two cents, but when the EGR valve died on my Silverado and the check engine light came on, I borrowed a scanner from autozone, and had it diagnosed in less then 5 min. Cost for the scanner-$188, refunded when I returned it 5 min later.

[joehalford01]

computers arn't going anywhere, as far as crushing the old cars-thats just dumb. at this point anyone driving a car more then 40 years old generally speaking works on it themselves and it is in a decent state of tune. finding mechanics to work on old stuff is getting impossible around here and if i had to call a mechanic everytime there was something wrong with my truck i'd never get to drive it . I noticed alot of the mid 90's cars being mentioned. Yes, those cars suck as far as computers go. It was also a new technology that has been re-fined over the last 15 years and will continue to get better. All of my cars until recently have been injected so I'm quite comfortable around them. It's not impossible to diagnois stuff, just time consuming, it has to be broken down like everything else. Also keep in mind that these computers require alot of wiring and being new in the 80's 90's no one thought to make these wiring harnesses long lasting. A lot of those cars just have bad wiring.

[rickf]

I suppose the upside of that car crushing crusade is the value of the old cars we have is going to go up as they become more rare. The downside is the value of the ones we want to buy are going to go up too.

And that is pretty much the only effect it would have.

And oh, the shame of it, all those perfectly usable parts being destroyed, with malice, no less.

This sort of thing is pretty much what Einstein was talking about when he said never confuse motion with action.

[ElkyRacer]

Originally Posted by raiden7800

Did you read the article past the title?

Yes I did....

Originally Posted by raiden7800

I agree with Fleetside, Very Nicely said. I am 19 years old, and have had my fair share of vehicles in the last few years. To be perfectly honest, I believe that you may have the horsepower rating backwards. Horsepower used to be measured at the ground, as opposed to at the flywheel like they do today, so that old Vette measuring 450 hp, was getting 450 at the ground, and most likely had 8-10% more than that at the flywheel. The new Zo6 Vette is rated at 505 hp yes, but it is at the flywheel, not the ground, so the hp increase isnt a huge jump, 5-10 hp, or vanity hp is what I like to call it.

No, you have it wrong. Back in the day, horsepower numbers were measured, with a motor, on a stand, with no accessories being driven off of it like water pumps or alternators. The fuel and timing were set NOT as factory specs, but to the best possible tuneup that could be set. They were measured at the crank, not to the wheels. So a Vette today, wouldnt put anywhere near 400 to the wheels. The newer Zo6s put out 420s to the wheels. Vanity HP?

Originally Posted by raiden7800

The reason I dont like these cars with sensors and computers, is because of how they have used them. If they had made the computer systems in ways that are straightforward and don't require a 1 thousand dollar computer to analyze, then it wouldnt be so bad. People fear change, when the change is much more complicated than need be.

Theres nothing simple about computers. Period. And the complexity of the systems keep people who do NOT know what they are doing, from going in and doing something they shouldnt have. How many people 'back in the day' do you know that found their car running funny, and went under the hood with a screwdriver knowing NOTHING about what they were doing. Another way to keep emissions systems running properly. A scan tool today is NOT that expensive.

Originally Posted by raiden7800

As for longevity, the new cars havent been on the road long enough to prove longevity, so I really cant remark on that, but I do agree with your choke in the morning point. I know all vehicles arent like mine, and a fuel injected vehicle when operating properly may or may not run more efficiently despite altitude changes, but we have been running cars that have had carbs and simple to operate ignition systems since the later 19 teens. This required people to actually pay attention to their car, and LEARN how to know when something is wrong. Thats what gauges are for. Sure, alot of new cars have gauges, but they are electronic, and let me tell you first hand, all it takes is 1 bad wire, or solder joint, and they might as well not be there. I install Car Stereos for Best Buy. I have seen the interior dashboard on just about every kind of car here that you can imagine, from f*^% aspires to datsun Z cars, Ive put a radio in it, been under the hood of it, and crawled around in it.

So my grandmother is supposed to know how to get out under the hood when the choke is stuck and free it up? Or how about that just turned sweet 16 girl in high school? Thats NOT what gauges are for. What about those wonderfull mechanical gauges that could spring a leak all over the place? Take a look at mileage numbers now vs then. Cars logging over 200k in the first 10 years of operation would have been UNHEARD of back then. And they are getting by with FEWER mechanical problems than then.

Originally Posted by raiden7800

I guess I am just old fashioned, but those computers have also de-educated alot of the people nowadays. You used to be able to walk up to almost any person, and they would know what was wrong just by hearing, or riding with you when the problem occurred, now, if you hear something funny, its off to the repair shop you go.

Maybe any typical car junky, but not a TYPICAL run of the mill everday person would know whats wrong with a car. As a matter of opinion, I think computers in general have EDUCATED more people. What are you on right now, learning about something?

Originally Posted by raiden7800

I can think of one instance where a sensor was (eeek) helpful. Just recently, my girlfriends F&^* Exploder speed sensors were messed up on the overdrive unit, meaning that the sensor telling the computer what speed it was turning, in relation to a sensor placed in the rear end telling what speed the wheels were spinning at, was not matching. So the Overdrive light started flashing, and the reason why, is because the overdrive unit started to over compensate for the speed difference, and basically, started comitting suicide. So now, 1900 dollars later, it has a rebuilt tranny. The reason why it had to be rebuilt? The sensors hadnt been reading correctly for some time, and hadnt until recently tripped the sensor. If it had just been a speedometer cable, and no sensors, her transmission would have been just fine. This is all according to the guys at the repair shop who just made 1900 bucks due to faulty sensors.

That sensor, usually tells the transmission when a clutch or converter slippage takes place, indicating a transmission is on its way out. Did you take the vehicle to a automotive or transmission shop when the OD light started to flash right away? Or did you wait? That light is there for a reason, and that transmission isnt going to self destruct the second the light comes on. Its going to take a while for that kind of affect to take place. Thats what the light is for!

Originally Posted by raiden7800

One thing that we havent factored into our discussion is also wear and tear. I have a 1984 Volvo 245, it has 319k miles on it, and still achieves 23 mpg in town, 26 on the freeway. Look it up, that is numerically above what they were originally rated for! If all the old cars were mechanically sound like they were brand new from the factory, and people didnt drive them like the accelerator was stuck, believe me, that old 283 V8 in the Bel Air gets an easy 15 in town and 20+ on the freeway. As far as racing a Mustang against Bel Air, the Bel Air IS NOT A SPORTS CAR! It is a passenger car, with a carrying capacity of 6, not 4 or less. Not to mention, that the mustang either has a 4 speed auto, or 5 speed manual trans, compared to a 2 spd. powerglide, well yea, Im sure that newer lighter mustang would beat it, Id be amazed if it didn't. A Honda Civic can beat it, but you cant load up a honda civic with 1300 lbs of people and stuff, and then drive cross country can you, and neither can you with the mustang.

I had a mustang once, it was a 1976 Mustang II Ghia, with a factory 302. That old mustang beat the pants off every new mustang I rolled up to, and if you look, those years were the worst for V8 horsepower ratings! I think it measured at about 140hp at the ground, the new mustangs are rated far above that at the flywheel, so how is it, that an older one tears it up with a lower rating? They weigh comparatively, carry the same amount of people, and mine had the 3spd auto trans.

Thats why I threw in the example of the V6 mustang. Its not a pony car, its just a rwd 6 cylinder car. And for the Mustangs in general, up untill the late 90s early 2000s, they were dogs, end of story, nothing to argue about there. Doubt you would find the same outcome in the 05 and ups for SURE.

Originally Posted by raiden7800

Sports cars used to be used for sports driving, not, I drive to work in it. The same is true nowadays, except that every vehicle today is outfitted with something to entertain the kids. Automakers were forced to do something because they were, and still are losing money!

Whats the fun in buying a sports car, to only drive on weekends? Getting to work in a sports car is half the fun!

Originally Posted by raiden7800

If you have a car that has an electrical part such as a sensor or computer go out, and you dont know it, replacing the unit is the only way to tell, unfortuantely, you cannot return electrical parts. And some of these 500-1000 dollar parts may not end up being the problem at all, but you are still stuck with them, and the non functioning vehicle.

And thats what Ive been trying to get to. On the newer cars, they DONT WANT YOU TO WORK ON THEM UNLESS YOU HAVE HAD THE PROPER TRAINING. Thats what a dealership is for, and their properly trained technitions. You do yourself(wallet mostly) and your environment more harm trying to hack your way through a repair by throwing parts at something. Get the proper tooling, training and fix it RIGHT. The proper diagnostic tools will pretty much TELL you what is wrong, and what action needs to be taken. Everything else, is experiance/training.

Originally Posted by raiden7800

Newer cars that boast better mileage turn me away mainly due to sticker prices. You may get 50-60 mpg in your prius, but I can buy a bunch of gas for that 300-400 dollar monthly car payment.

Rob

Your right, but not everyone WANTS or CAN buy an older car, and afford to keep them running, or trust them to get them back and forth to work.

Just some background from me.
Kyle age 26, 2 year degree in diesel tech and automotive tech
Current fleet,

1964 Chevy LongFleet, 230, 1bbl, points, 200R4
1998 Mustang GT Automatic
1981 Jeep CJ7, 03 model 5.3 fuel injected, 4L80E, dual transfercases, big tires..blah blah

Past,
1995 Pontiac Formula Firebird, ran 11.0000@125 at the track, still got in the mid teens with a 3 speed, STILL FUEL INJECTED, and over 150k miles on the spray.
1986 IROC, 305 TPI, 700R4, and some half assed repairs leading to a ill running car, total los
1983 El Camino 305, 4bbl q-jet, th350, and 200x HARD HARD high school miles

[ElkyRacer]

BTW, Im not trying to cause trouble in this thread, trust me. I just hate to see closed minded people not look at both sides of the story. If I can help someone learn something new, and not be scared of change in this type of industry, thats the best thing I can do on a message board like this.

Kyle

[ClassicAutoResto]

[raiden7800]

Im not assuming anything, but that sounded to me like you called me a closed minded person, I am a very open minded person, and have had my fair share of computer controlled vehicles. Nowhere in what I said did I mention anything about hacking into wiring not knowing what to look for. I said that WHEN YOU HAVE A PART THAT MAY BE FAULTY, THE ONLY WAY TO TEST IT, IS WITH ANOTHER PART. Not that I am going to go hacking into a computer system, trying to figure out what was wrong.

Computers themselves are a good means to educate people, but computers in cars dont teach anything. They dont teach what to listen for, how to fix it, or if you can fix it, what tools you need. All it says, is that you need a computer to read it. I am not against having computers in cars. Ive never been. But the characteristics that touchy electronics such as computers in cars spells nothing but trouble. We all know how finicky computers can be. You wouldnt take your desktop computer and plug it into your car and expect it to make the car run would you? (I know the op systems are different, I am making reference to the physical parts, and virutal memory systems).

Computers dont always put out error codes. On my friends Acura, it just so happened to be that after I argued with many people at parts stores, mechanic shops, and personal friends who said the computer should say what is wrong, they found that the computer wasnt getting power! So how is plugging a car computer into a reader going to do you ANY GOOD AT ALL if the computer DOESNT HAVE AN ERROR CODE IN IT.

The only way to fix anything, is to check the wires going to the computer against a wiring schematic, and if you can get the computer to power up, it may still not put out an error code. The engine has to run before it will kick out an error code other than (I cant start). There are too many little electrical parts included in these circuits, and any part in that circuit may be bad, so you have to start TRYING PARTS to find out if that part is the problem. Once you buy it, you are stuck with it. Period.

Just because a car is old, doesnt mean that it costs thousands to keep it running, nor does it mean that it may or may not get them to work or not. There is a higher percentage of cars that run just find and die suddenly, than cars that have been running crappily for some time. Point is, you cant really tell either way. We like to think our car may get us where we need to go, but in reality, its up to the car, and our belief in it, makes no difference on whether it will run or not. Being a 2 year degree in automotive graduate, you should know this better than anyone.

I never said that you only needed to drive a sports car on the weekend, I would like driving a sports car to work myself, but I dont see the point in putting minivan entertainment electronics inside of them.

I dont mean to seem cross, but I feel like I am being treated like I have no idea what I am talking about. I would like to know what unit they used back in the 20s 30s 40s 50s 60s and so on, to measure the hp on a stand, when nowadays, you have hydraulics and computers to measure all that stuff. It was much easier to put an engine in a car and throw it on a dyno to test it. Its such a chore pulling an engine in todays vehicles, that they would put the engines in before all the wires go in to make it run. That would make more sense that they would test HP before they bury the engines under the hood of a car, as opposed put putting it all together, testing it, and then pulling it back out.

I can totally understand the non experienced person hazard with the screwdriver, but if at least someone took the car to a shop (like they have to now anyways) all it would take is 1 experienced person with a scredriver to fix it. Much much cheaper.
Quote:

So a Vette today, wouldnt put anywhere near 400 to the wheels. The newer Zo6s put out 420s to the wheels. Vanity HP?


Well if a z06 is rated at 505hp, which is what it says on the side of the car, and you say it puts out 420s to the wheels, how is it that they can rate it once at 505, and then again at 420? Which is the 505, ground or flywheel?

If you want to teach the close minded individual, make sure that you have an audience of closed minded individuals.

[hewlett2002000]

well you wont change my mind on this one. i will NEVER own a car made after 1990 and thats a promise. i have no problem with a EFI engine if its somewhat simple. but you know what? my old 66 chevy is held together with duck tape and bailing wire and JB weld and it probably has its own hole in the ozone layer but i wouldent have it any other way. and unless i blow a hole in the engine, tranny, or rear end odds are if it breaks down i can fix it right there on the side of the road. simple is better, in almost all cases. and just so you know i have worked on these new pieces of **** and i hated every second of it. when i see a new car im afraid to touch it because i think its gonna break and cost me $10,000. but im not gonna argue with you about it, ive read more about the computers in these cars then most of you put together, but no matter what i say somebodies gonna come along and try to prove me wrong so f*** it. thats the kind of person i am, if something interest me i study it to the best of my ability. so yall go ahead and bicker about it. ill just read and laugh.
John

[raiden7800]

Hewlett2002000, I need to shake your hand my friend.

[brawley]

If you want to have computers, emissions,gas milage ect.. then drive new cars. I drive old cars because I don't have to deal with all of that. I've driven all types of newer cars- and have no problem with them ,but I love my old piece of junk-manual steering,brakes, no A/c, gas guzzeling AMERICAN truck.God Bless America!!! Leave em on the road- They look better anyway.

[ClassicAutoResto]

hewlett!!!! Everyone has their own opinion, this thread, I feel has become a little too heated. I respect everyone's opinion, because it is our right to one. That is what makes this country so good. Maybe this thread should close out before things get out of hand. I really do enjoy the info we pass to each other, and it should remain on that level. Good luck to all and thanks!!!! Jerry

[rickf]

Fun. And perhaps freedom. And even pride.

I'm out on a limb here, daring to speak for us all. We're driving these old trucks because we enjoy it, all of it. The fixing, the driving, the talking about it. It's fun.

Vehicles from the era are exempt from DEQ and such. We have the freedom to fix or modify them as we please.

And even my old battered 64 turns heads, bad paint and all. I'm constantly getting compliments at the gas pump. Walking across the parking lot to the grocery store I get "Hey, that's a cool truck, what is it?".

Practical efficient transportation isn't even on the list, that aspect simply doesn't matter.

Failures are almost always mechanical in nature. That means we can see, hear, feel the problem with our own senses. Almost anything on there can be fixed with a small collection of simple tools. This puts it within the capability of the shade tree hobbyist mechanic, the work is pleasant and satisfying.

As for me, is my timing set just right? I doubt it. Is my carb adjusted spot on? I really really doubt it. But she idles smooth, cruises fine, and when I decide to step on it she scoots in a hurry. That's good enough.

Some here are more sophisticated than others. Some build high powered trucks old school style. Some are comfortable with mazes of wires, sensors, and computer controllers. If that is what you enjoy then you are doing the right thing. Some like stone stock OEM. That's cool. Most are somewhere in between. It's repetitive, I know, but I have to say it, that's cool too. There is something to learn from the threads that all of these interests generate, that is part of what is way cool about this site.