z'd frame?

[azfab]

i know this q been asked a million times but has any one here completed a 3.5 to 4''z? i need to know what is and interferance? and weres the best place to cut? thanx guys

[AceX]

You don't have to Z the frame. Invest in a Dropmember...

If you have your heart set on a Z, 2.5" is what you need I think. Should be done at the firewall.

[azfab]

if i had the money i would in a heart beat. 2000 i just dont have right now. i was thinking of droping the motor down so i wouldnt have to mess with the fire wall but i dont know just yet. you realy dont know until you do it or know some one who has done it befor. thanx for your guys help

[bagged74]

there is absolutely no reason to do a 4" Z. way overkill

[azfab]

2.5'' i think will lay 3.5 to 4'' to make up for the drp spindels i dont have. so do a 3'' spindel and a 2.5?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by azfab

2.5'' i think will lay 3.5 to 4'' to make up for the drp spindels i dont have. so do a 3'' spindel and a 2.5?

3.5~4" to make up for drop spindles you don't have?? That extreme amount of 'Z' might make up for those <$300 spindles, but will cost you >$300 one way or another to get the motor mounts, steering, tin-work, & cooling system modified.

BTW.... The Dropmember is less than 2K last I checked.

[GMBowtie79]

You'd be better off pancaking your crossmember and puttin in 2.5"-3" drop spindles than Z-ing the frame 3.5"- 4".

[rotgg]

drop member is 1425 plus these parts which add up to around 3500-3900 many of us cant afford that a z is free but alot of work i will take the z

-Steering linkage (shaft, joints, and idler)

-Rack and pinion (power), (manual)

-Power steering lines

-Air Ride Tech. 'Strong Arms' (tubular control arms are not necessary, but recommended. The Dropmember was designed to be used with Air Ride Technologies' Strong Arms. Stock arms can be used with slight trimming on lower control arm).

-Air Bags (Slam Specialties RE7)

-Shocks (Monroe)

-60-72 6-lug rotor kit (rotors, calipers, lines, bearings, pads, seals, dust caps)

-60-72 5-lug rotor kit (rotors, calipers, lines, bearings, pads, seals, dust caps)

-2.5" Drop Spindles (63-70)

-2.5" Drop Spindles (71-72. must use 'heavy duty' rotors)

-2" Drop Spindles (73-87)

[HotRodYJ]

I aree there is nothing wrong with a hefty Z if your willing to do the work to save a few dollars. Anyone capable of properly Z'ing the frame is just as capable of modifying the other things that will need to be changed without spending >$300 to get them done. I appreciate those who do there own work and don't spend alot of money on fancy aftermarket parts. That stuff is nice, but you can quickly sink more money than you have available into such items. I also prefer to do my own fab work rather than shelling out the money. I say go for it and keep us posted on how it goes.

All of the front end engineering in my own truck is done and I'm back on finish sheetmetal work right now. My total cash layout is a set of bags, used plates and cups, and a used Rack & Pinion from a Camaro I picked up for $50. Arms and spindles are stock and it all but lays frame for next to no cost, just a little work.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by rotgg

drop member is 1425 plus these parts which add up to around 3500-3900 many of us cant afford that a z is free but alot of work i will take the z

-Steering linkage (shaft, joints, and idler)

-Rack and pinion (power), (manual)

-Power steering lines

-Air Ride Tech. 'Strong Arms' (tubular control arms are not necessary, but recommended. The Dropmember was designed to be used with Air Ride Technologies' Strong Arms. Stock arms can be used with slight trimming on lower control arm).

-Air Bags (Slam Specialties RE7)

-Shocks (Monroe)

-60-72 6-lug rotor kit (rotors, calipers, lines, bearings, pads, seals, dust caps)

-60-72 5-lug rotor kit (rotors, calipers, lines, bearings, pads, seals, dust caps)

-2.5" Drop Spindles (63-70)

-2.5" Drop Spindles (71-72. must use 'heavy duty' rotors)

-2" Drop Spindles (73-87)

I know Nate lists this stuff but you'll still need custom steering linkage w/a 'Z' so that's a wash.
A parts house R&P can be had for the same amount or less than the cost of replacing the drag link, tie-rods, & a new box so that's also a wash.
You only need pwr steering lines if you upgrade to pwr steering. You would have to do the same if you upgraded to pwr steering w/a 'Z'; again a wash.
The DM can be used w/stock arms; no need for ART stuff unless you want them.
Brakes will be the same for either combination & another wash.
No need for dropped spindles w/the DM unless you want to lay frame w/taller wheel/tire combos.
You'll need bags either way as well (if you plan to bag it).

So while the DM isn't free, it doesn't run into the atmosphere. A 'Z' is not something you can just snap your fingers for & it happens. If you don't plan for things correctly, the truck could wind up un-safe or unfinished.

Seems like if a guy has the skills, a milder 'Z' w/some spindles would be a very good compromise.

[rotgg]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I know Nate lists this stuff but you'll still need custom steering linkage w/a 'Z' so that's a wash.
A parts house R&P can be had for the same amount or less than the cost of replacing the drag link, tie-rods, & a new box so that's also a wash.
You only need pwr steering lines if you upgrade to pwr steering. You would have to do the same if you upgraded to pwr steering w/a 'Z'; again a wash.
The DM can be used w/stock arms; no need for ART stuff unless you want them.
Brakes will be the same for either combination & another wash.
No need for dropped spindles w/the DM unless you want to lay frame w/taller wheel/tire combos.
You'll need bags either way as well (if you plan to bag it).

So while the DM isn't free, it doesn't run into the atmosphere. A 'Z' is not something you can just snap your fingers for & it happens. If you don't plan for things correctly, the truck could wind up un-safe or unfinished.

Seems like if a guy has the skills, a milder 'Z' w/some spindles would be a very good compromise.

like i said it will be 3500-3900 for the drop member + parts and with drop member the truck still wont lay out as long as u are satisfied with a "lowered" truck and u are rich go with drop member if u want the truck to lay out and are not rich do the z its not as hard as these guys try to make it out to be and its alot of fun building something there are also many other places that sell "drop members" that are half the price of the porter built

if u are rich and love the porter built stuff u can also go for a back half and have 8grand in your ride before u even get started

or u could send your trucks to me and for 8 grand i would be happy to lay it out flat for you

[bagged74]

how will the truck not "lay" with a dropmember? where can you get the same thing for half the price?
I dont think anyone is saying dont to a "z", just dont do 4". Drop spindles dont cost that much. the price will offset all the problems that such a drastic Z will cause. A 2.5" or 3" Z with 2.5" or 3" spindles shuold be more than enough.
You are right a Z is not that hard to do. "IF" you have some fabrication skills, its also pretty easy to screw up if you don't. One of the problems is everyone seems to think they have the "skills" but i have seen several that didnt turn out so good.

[azfab]

thnax guys your input is helpful, when i did the z on the 68 it wasn't to bad i did 1.5 and a 1.5 body drop it lays pinch weld with no spindels. even thoght the fron ends are the same on the 68 and 86. im going to do the z first and if ineed any more the drop spindels will help. dude if i had the money i would buy the dm but thats alot of cash right now lol. i like to fabricate gives me somthing to do lol. but i just want to be sure be for i do it. with this one i want to do some this a little diffrent. ill probily go with a power rack, i ran into ths problem with the 68 inner tie rods have clearance issues. also when you sole and trying to center the motor and mock up motor mounts by your self its sucks.. i think i only spent like 100 buck to do the 68 summit motir mounts $25 sterring double d 15, ujoints 65. all and all she lays pretty hard lol. the only problem i c is the tranny to trans tunnel clearance. looks like and .5''. the 68 i had to rase that tunnel about 2''. i want to try to advoid that on this one. 2.5 and dropind the motor that muck i might get lucky well i have to pull the motor soon. ill keep all you guys up dated, thanx agin for all your input

[GMBowtie79]

Myself I'd rather do a pancaked crossmember and drop spindles than Z the frame. Less work, You can get another one from a wrecking yard and do it before you take the one out of your truck, and if you screw it up ya get another one and start over. Once you cut your frame if ya screw it up it turns into a big mess. Your either changing frames or your trying to fix the screwed up one which usually winds up resembeling a hack job. The safety factor falls into play also. A pancaked crossmember dosn't risk the strucural integrity of the vehicle nearly as much as cutting the frame. and you can get the same results.

[royo]

[QUOTE=SCOTI;2813701]I know Nate lists this stuff but you'll still need custom steering linkage w/a 'Z' so that's a wash.
A parts house R&P can be had for the same amount or less than the cost of replacing the drag link, tie-rods, & a new box so that's also a wash.
You only need pwr steering lines if you upgrade to pwr steering. You would have to do the same if you upgraded to pwr steering w/a 'Z'; again a wash.
The DM can be used w/stock arms; no need for ART stuff unless you want them.
Brakes will be the same for either combination & another wash.
No need for dropped spindles w/the DM unless you want to lay frame w/taller wheel/tire combos.
You'll need bags either way as well (if you plan to bag it).

So while the DM isn't free, it doesn't run into the atmosphere. A 'Z' is not something you can just snap your fingers for & it happens. If you don't plan for things correctly, the truck could wind up un-safe or unfinished.

Seems like if a guy has the skills, a milder 'Z' w/some spindles would be a very good compromise.[/QUOTE good info x2

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by rotgg

like i said it will be 3500-3900 for the drop member + parts....

$1450 for the DM + $200 for the R&P = $1650. I'm not sure where your math is calculating $35-3900?? You wouldn't add the costs of the steering linkage & bags only to the DM price because you'll use them for the 'Z' as well.

Originally Posted by rotgg

and with drop member the truck still wont lay out as long as u are satisfied with a "lowered" truck and u are rich go with drop member if u want the truck to lay out and are not rich do the z its not as hard as these guys try to make it out to be and its alot of fun building something there are also many other places that sell "drop members" that are half the price of the porter built

The DM does in fact "lay out" so I'm pretty confident you're incorrect on this fact.

Other companies don't sell a 90% bolt-in kit that plants the frame rails. As a comparison, you would have to modify the Fatmans 'bolt-in' kit pretty severe to get it close to the as installed DM (I base this statement on personal experience because a friend installed the MII kit & even after modifiying it still isn't as low). The Fatman kit starts @ $1179 & that does not include the lowers arms; they're an additional $300. So $1479 for a bolt-in kit that won't go as low & uses smaller 11" brakes w/a car pattern.

Jim Meyers is the only other 'bolt-in' set-up I've found but they sell a "total kit" which starts @ $3200. Again, it still has the same issues as the Fatmans kit (won't plant the frame rails).

Originally Posted by rotgg

if u are rich and love the porter built stuff u can also go for a back half and have 8grand in your ride before u even get started

or u could send your trucks to me and for 8 grand i would be happy to lay it out flat for yo

Last I read, Nathons rear kit was about $2K but I'm not 100% sure that pricing is in stone. He offered the front kits since about 2006 w/many happy customers & several repeat customers.

As for how hard it is to 'Z', not every guy is on the same experience level. Some guys are good @ fabrication, some not so. I would suggest each person to seriously/honestly consider their abilities first. If the total fabrication to complete a 'Z' seems too much, a DM is a great alternative & allows someone w/less experience to sucessfully do it themselves w/o worrying that they might be ruining their truck (which can happen if a 'Z' is not done right).

[rotgg]

as for the prices the prices that i got were from nate himself i called and thats what he told me it would take i didnt just make them up

[azfab]

so pancakein the crossmember? whats involved? i can get and extra crossmember easly. sounds like a better way.. so chop the cross so that it = the dropmembers highth?

[GMBowtie79]

The pancaked crossmember is what gave Nate the idea for the dropmember. It's a 1.5" drop. Heres a link that may help.
http://www.captkaoscustoms.com/chopcross.html

[SCOTI]

I don't understand the points you're trying to make.....

the problem is with the drop member that it wont lay the pinch weld thats what is considered layed out i am talking about on a 86 to be layed out u still would have to trim off the bottom of the frame and weld in some sort of reinforcement

If the frame under the cab limits an 86 from laying out w/a DM, it will do the same w/a 'Z" since the 'Z' doesn't effect that portion of the frame. Either method will require the extra effort so what is your point?

you will also have to move the gas tank then you have to 4 link the rear end which is much harder than doing the z you will also need need exhaust work and notching for the RP steering also you have to fab up a trans cross member with all that fab work for a "bolt on kit" i am not seeing were all the work is saved

The way I see it, the rear stuff will require similar mods regardless of how the front is done. I was comparing the DM to 'Z-ing' the stock front frame. The trans crossmember is included in the kit so "all that fab work for a bolt in kit" included . . ...

• removing the original crossmember

• installing the new crossmember (re-drilling some holes)

• measuring & cutting the frame for the c-notches for the R&P/tierod ends

• welding the c-notches in

A 'Z' will require . . ....

• taking all the required diagonal measurements

• cutting the rails

• repositioning the rails

• leveling everything & tacking it together

• take new measurements to ensure everything is square

• welding it back together

• creating templates for boxing plates

• cutting the templates to fit

• tacking & then welding them in place + clean-up from all the welding

• fabricating a new trans c.member

I did the install in my driveway in an afternoon (which included removing the R&P unit to finish welding the c-notches & then re-installing it again). My point is the DM costs a little more but saves alot of time & is an excellent choice especially for those that aren't experienced welders/fabricators. You're point is a 'Z' takes more work but cost less, on this we semi-agree.

like i said before the easiest thing to do would be to let me build your truck for u and then you would not have to worry about anything no dirt under your nails you would not have to learn how to read a tape no welding skills nothing i could come pick up your truck and return it to you with the drop u wanted

I never asked for help building my truck but felt this was directed @ me. With that being said, you seem to be very educated on 'Z-ing' frames so when did you complete your first one? How many 'Z's' have you done since then? Any pics of the finished vehicle(s)?

as for the prices the prices that i got were from nate himself i called and thats what he told me it would take i didnt just make them up

I installed my DM for $1600 (the cost of the DM + a pwr R&P from Oreilly Auto parts). I didn't make this price up either. I already had ART arms & Borgeson joints/shaft for my stock notched crossmember (I just needed 1 more joint). You'll need the same Borgeson joints & shaft so the cost is a wash (each method can use OE or aftermarket arms so they don't qualify for the discussion).

This all started when you questioned the install price on the DM that I posted. I have nothing against doing a 'Z' but you sure seem to have a strong opinion that the the DM is wayyyyyyy overpriced & that you could do the same or better quality work (picking up & delivering the vehicle to boot) for less. I can discuss this all day but don't wish to intrude on the original posters thread any longer.
I apologize if any have been offended/annoyed.

[bagged74]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Seems like if a guy has the skills, a milder 'Z' w/some spindles would be a very good compromise.

werd!!

[Slammed '87]

This is what a 2.5" Z did for me. This is a before and after shot. I am very happy with how it turned out. I kinda wished i went with a 3" because the current x- member is still to low, but i have a 1 3/8" sectioned x-member to install so that will solve the clearance problem.

[MacSic66]

heres my 2cents...
I did a 3" "Z" on my 66, with a 75' front clip. a-arms are about 1/4" away from the ground when it lays out. Benefits, it moves everything up so your steering geometry doesnt change. minus, it moves the engine up so the trans tunnel might need some work..

[rotgg]

i am trying to give the guy solid advise and yes i have completed Z's and it was a 4" z exactly what the question was about you have only spoken on the drop member he never asked about a drop member and yes the drop member is way over priced in my opinion but that is just my opinion

[MacSic66]

Originally Posted by rotgg

i am trying to give the guy solid advise and yes i have completed Z's and it was a 4" z exactly what the question was about you have only spoken on the drop member he never asked about a drop member and yes the drop member is way over priced in my opinion but that is just my opinion

shrug.. cool, on the next one i plan to go with the 4" "Z"(wish i did on this one), if i had more money than time id do a dropmember, but i dont.. so "Z"ing works!