Anyone want to kibbitz?

[panhandler62]

Hi y'all!

I've poked around here in "suspension" for a while and pretty much exposed myself as a newb. On the more positive life note; I agree, so I want to get advise before I start throwing money at half-baked ideas.

The missus and I have had a dispute with the government for a while. Thanks to a wiley layer and the truth being on our side; the government finaly agrees that they owe us some money. Out of what we are getting I get to spend $2500 on geting the stalled truck project moving again. The are vague on the time frame of actually sending the money to us, but it won't be more than 3 or 4 months so I want to plan ahead.

Here is what it looks like right now:



What I'm after in the long run is car-like ride, handling and stance (realizing that the mass of C-20 is not going to allow it to handle like a Solitice, of course!) What I am after in the short run is to maximize the progress I can get with this lump sum without too badly sacrifycing the end product (meaning dropmembers and corvette parts are not going to be part of the equation, but there will be no hacks and shortcuts like heated/chopped springs.)

I wrote to a couple vendors but they are either real busy or I am too annoying because no one wrote back. lol

Here is what I have come up with. If anyone can offer advice, criticism and/or fill in some of the questins I would love to hear it so I don't end up with a crap job. I can do anything mechanical and I can handle *some* fabrication but cutting up a frame and rebuilding it are beyond my experiance and facilities (I'll be working in the driveway and my basement, not in a shop.)
I have a 110 flux core welder and a small acetylene torch so I'll be a little limited in the sticking big peices of metal together parts.

System:
Compressor
Tank
Valves, lines, stuff, etc.

Rear:
C-notch kit
Restore truck arms
Restore third member
New truck arm bushings
Shocks (which ones? I think someone has a spreadsheet to figure this out?)
Bags (which ones?)
Adjustable panhard
Sway bar (which?)
?? can I modify the existing crossmember for shock mounts or do I need a new one?

Front:
Restore control arms, steering linkage rotors, calipers salvaged from a 77
Restore power steering box (from a 68 so it should fit!)
New 2 1/2 inch drop spindles
New bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, etc.
Shocks (which ones? I think someone has a spreadsheet to figure this out?)
Bags (which ones?)
Sway bar (which?)

Am I on the right track? can I do this on budget? Have I left a whole lot of important parts out?

[LONGHAIR]

Ok, I admit it, I had to look it up. My Yiddish is weak....LOL. My first thought was bad spelling of kvetch. Close, but not the same.

kibbitz: offer advice, usually unsolicited.
kvetch:grumble, gripe, complain

Always learning something, thanks.

[N2TRUX]

I will start by "assuming" you are planning on converting to C-10 suspension based on the parts list.

Lets start with the static portion of your drop. It seems that ECE is the vendor of choice for these items.

My first choice is 3" spindles and DJM offers a great value for a quality product. Just know going in that if you plan to run a 15x8 wheel you might need to do some trimming on the A-arm.

I would locate a C-20 sway bar and add fresh bushing. They can be had for cheap (or free) and will do just as good as most aftermarket bars.

This should add fuel to the fire. I will try to go more in depth as time permits.

[panhandler62]

That's one issue where I am lacking some info....

It seems to be real popular to switch to 5 lug patterns but I'm not sure why. Will I not be able to re-use the 8 lug disks and the third member? We kind of touched on this in another thread and I'm thinking you may be assuming that I know more than I do.

How much of the C-20 suspension can be saved and how much just has to go?

I do't mean to come off as combative, I'm just trying to make sure I understand all th issues before I start buying things. :0

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by panhandler62

That's one issue where I am lacking some info....

It seems to be real popular to switch to 5 lug patterns but I'm not sure why. Will I not be able to re-use the 8 lug disks and the third member? We kind of touched on this in another thread and I'm thinking you may be assuming that I know more than I do.

How much of the C-20 suspension can be saved and how much just has to go?

You can do all of your proposed ideas & keep it 8-lug if desired. Once we know that, we can be specific on details. Overall, how much drop are you wanting (if any)?

[panhandler62]

I'm not trying to put it into the weeds, just get it down from where it sat to a more car like attitude an ride hieght.

Probably in the neighborhood of 4/6 or a bit more.. pretty much what ever will work well with an overall tire height similar to the size that I have in the shed (generic cheap ties on 16 inch rims) I would like to re-use these for the time being since good rims and tires are expensive items but if keeping the 8-lug setup is that much of a mess I can get some cheap junkyard wheels/tires until my budget gets a refill.

I talked to Jason from AVS and he recomended using an 8 valve setup with 2600s all around. I plan to get a bolt on c-notch somewhere and don't really need to get any lower than that will get me there.

BTW: That is the truck in question to the left (bigger pic in profile) before i took it apart.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by panhandler62

I'm not trying to put it into the weeds, just get it down from where it sat to a more car like attitude an ride hieght.

Probably in the neighborhood of 4/6 or a bit more.. pretty much what ever will work well with an overall tire height similar to the size that I have in the shed (generic cheap ties on 16 inch rims) I would like to re-use these for the time being since good rims and tires are expensive items but if keeping the 8-lug setup is that much of a mess I can get some cheap junkyard wheels/tires until my budget gets a refill.

I talked to Jason from AVS and he recomended using an 8 valve setup with 2600s all around. I plan to get a bolt on c-notch somewhere and don't really need to get any lower than that will get me there.

BTW: That is the truck in question to the left (bigger pic in profile) before i took it apart.

A 4/6 drop would work well & be budget friendly w/bolt-on parts.

System: Compressor, Tank, Valves, lines, stuff, etc.
You could run a basic system to get started & not kill the budget. 2x 3gal alum tanks, 2x compressors; 1/4" lines, fittings, & use pneumatic paddle (manual) control switches. Primitive & cheaper, yet functional w/fewer issues because of less electronics. The down-side is the 'primitive' set-up requires larger airlines to be plumbed into the cab. If this is not desireable, one of the board supporting vendors like AVS should be able to set you up w/a air management 'kit' that fits your needs.

Rear:
C-notch kit, restore truck arms, restore third member, new truck arm bushings
Shocks
Bags
Adjustable panhard
Sway bar
Can I modify the existing crossmember for shock mounts or do I need a new one?

The rear treatment sounds like a solid plan. For shocks use KYB GR-2 in the stock recommended application (no need for any spcecial drop shocks). Firestone bags or Slam's (F6873/224c; RE-7's). Use a Super Trank bar kit as the longer bar yeilds less shift over the range of travel. The existing shock crossmember will work as is w/the addition of some aftermarket shock relocation brackets (or you can easily modify you current ones w/some simple hand tools & a vice).

Front:
Restore control arms, steering linkage rotors, calipers salvaged from a 77
Restore power steering box (from a 68 so it should fit!)
New 2 1/2 inch drop spindles
New bushings, tie rod ends, ball joints, etc.
Shocks
Bags
Sway bar

Again, a solid budget friendly plan. Just like the rear, KYB GR-2's will work well & Firestone bags or Slam's in the same sizes as the rear (F6873/224c; RE-7's). For the sway bar, hit the local wrecking yard (or search the classifieds here) for a 3/4 ~ 1-ton HD OE 1.25" sway bar. Add some Energy Suspension poly bushings to get everything out of the bigger bar. Snag the wheels from your disc brake donor so there's no interference issues w/the calipers using older drum brake wheels.

[IvelDesigns]

if you're going for a 4/6 drop and want to keep it budget minded, why not go for a static drop? maybe you covered this in another thread.

Going the route of air will chew up half your budget right there.

Do you have the rest of the truck?

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by IvelDesigns

if you're going for a 4/6 drop and want to keep it budget minded, why not go for a static drop? maybe you covered this in another thread.

Going the route of air will chew up half your budget right there.

I was thinking the same thing but assumed he was looking into air for better ride w/uncompromised hauling capacity.

Even @ that, I would stick w/static drop up front & bag the rear using my primitive method described above. That manual-air system (rear only) would only require 1x 3gal tank, 1x compressor, & the 1/4" lines, fittings w/1x manual paddle control/dual needle gauge set-up (< $600 total).

[panhandler62]

I have a shed full of parts I've pulled off it. The front fenders and bed were toast but I have everything else.

I wanted to set ip up on air on all four corners for the ride, handling and so I can have some ajustibility. If it's setting on bags and I don't like the ride height I can change it but if I go static and don't like it I have to take it apart and do it over again.

I'm not planning on getting it back on the road for the $2500.00 I'll be dumping into it in a month or two -- I just want to get as much of the suspension done as I can.

I can pick at the body restoration and engine buildup a bit at a time, but I'm thinking that I'll get the most out of the suspension upgrade if I am using something close to a matched set of parts so I want to do it mostly all at once.

I figure I'm about $10k from getting it driving again. (That figure doesn't include a finished paint job.)

[SCOTI]

While airbags are adjustable for the ride height, there's more to it. What if you didn't like the height but it rode great? Change that air pressure to get the height you want & you have possibly also changed the ride quality. More than likely, you'll be close enough.... but you still have to plan in order to achieve the correct ride height & desired ride quality.

I always trim a coil off my stock springs first (w/the dropped spindles). If I don't like it, I can get something different (I've yet to need something different on a 6X-87 truck).

[panhandler62]

So....

Your recomendation is to run a 4 valve system for the rear and do a static drop on the front? My shopping list will change a bit then. That sounds pretty doable, and leaves me more to pick up odds and ends. Guess I'll have to clean up my front springs.. lol

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by panhandler62

So....

Your recomendation is to run a 4 valve system for the rear and do a static drop on the front? My shopping list will change a bit then. That sounds pretty doable, and leaves me more to pick up odds and ends. Guess I'll have to clean up my front springs.. lol

Yes. Since it's a mild drop, using the springs up front allows more money to be used elsewhere w/a greater return on the investent.

Like stated earlier, you could also go manual on the air control & cut costs even further & still have the necessary control over the air management (think of it like cruise-control vs. your foot on the gas pedal; both get the job done).

Here's the rear kit that was used on my 68 for over 6yrs. Independent control of each bag, no electronic switches, no valves, & no solenoids. Very basic & trouble free (not 1 issue) . . ....

[SCOTI]

The compressor gets 12v fused power from the battery through HD gauge wire. It T's through the pressure limit switch to the tank. The tank sends air to the manual paddle switch. There's dual needles on the gauge to monitor air on each bag.

The red air-lines were the supply (IN) lines from the tank. The black lines were the discharge (OUT) to the bags. There's a nipple on the back of the manual paddle switch for bleeding air out of the bags if/when needed. They can be routed externally or simply dump to atmoshere within the cab (that's how I did mine since I wasn't playing w/it much).

I used existing holes in the cab-floor to run the air-lines into the cab & rubber grommets w/silicone to seal things up. I kept the control panel wrapped in a towel under the seat. If I wanted to add air for pulling my trailer, I pulled it out, adjusted the switches to add pressure, wrapped it back up & tucked it out of sight again until I needed to bleed the psi back down.

I mounted the tank to the bottom of the bed-floor just behind the cab & mounted the compressor on the outer pass side framerail (right next to the tank). The power wiring ran up the pass side framerail to the power terminal tower on the front fender. Airlines were adel clamped in place & insulated w/rubber fuel line where necessary.

An even more primitive set-up that I used for over a year w/o issue was simply installing the 2 rear bags & running the 2 air-lines to L/R schrader valves located behind my flip-up license plate that comes w/the ECE Hidden Hitch kit. No tanks or anything there but it required adjustments to be made just like airing up your tires.

[panhandler62]

So:

Still resotring the same parts as above plus de-rustifying my front springs and removing 1 coil from each. My shopping list looks like:

1 3g tank
1 Compressor
1 Paddle controller
50' airtline?
1 set bolt on c-notch
2 2600 bags w/hardware to mount
1 Adjustable panhard
2 truck arm bushings
2 ubolts & hardware
4 Shocks & relocators
2 Drop spindles
2 sway bars w/bushings
4 tie rod ends
4 ball joints

[SCOTI]

Looks good.

[panhandler62]

Came up with just under $1900 for the suspension parts.

I atttached a spreadsheet of what I found.

I figure I should "fudge factor" in about $250.00 for all the little stuff I forgot and the things that I think I already have that are going to break when I do it. lol

[panhandler62]

In a vast suprise to us... they paid us so....

I am starting to scrounge up parts. Got a sway bar from a board vendor. I'll need to clean it up and put new bushings on it, but I need some winter projects anyway. lol

Got some stuff cued up. Thanks to Scoti I am getting some value for my money. (Thanks dude!)

I have to wait till tomorrow night to push the button on things because we went out Wednesday night and bought a TV. Now I know that my debit card has a spending imit. oops...

I have the following on the way:
2 1/2" drop spindles
Rear shock kit
3g air tank (ride tech)
Thomas compressor
Airline
Control panel (single gauge, dual manual paddles)
Frame notches

Trying to pick out a happy bag(s)...
Are these OK? http://www.hornblasters.com/products...2600lb-air-bag

[panhandler62]

I need to pick out a decent panhard bar too .. :P

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by panhandler62

I need to pick out a decent panhard bar too .. :P

ECE, Northwest Autofab, or CPP offer long PHB's. Porterbuilt Streetrods has a nice one w/his truck arm set-up. You might inquire if he could make one that would work w/your stock truck arms (he & I discussed this possibility). Keep in mind that 6" drops w/o lowering blocks seem to have interference issues w/the pass side bracket that attaches to the truck arm. The least obtrusive is CPP's trailing arm design.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by panhandler62

In a vast suprise to us... they paid us so....

I am starting to scrounge up parts. Got a sway bar from a board vendor. I'll need to clean it up and put new bushings on it, but I need some winter projects anyway. lol

Got some stuff cued up. Thanks to Scoti I am getting some value for my money. (Thanks dude!)

I have to wait till tomorrow night to push the button on things because we went out Wednesday night and bought a TV. Now I know that my debit card has a spending imit. oops...

I have the following on the way:
2 1/2" drop spindles
Rear shock kit
3g air tank (ride tech)
Thomas compressor
Airline
Control panel (single gauge, dual manual paddles)
Frame notches

Trying to pick out a happy bag(s)...
Are these OK? http://www.hornblasters.com/products...2600lb-air-bag

Those would work once you add reducers for the airline fittings. There's always these....
http://www.*****************/airbags/...tone-255c-2500

[panhandler62]

I ordered the 3/8" port 2600 Firestones... saving $20 on bags and then adding extra fittings is probably not a good trade off.

[SCOTI]

Did you order the ARC1600 'kit' or did you get p/n's for each of the different items? The reason I ask is I'm curious what Thomas compressor they're sending you.

[panhandler62]

I'm pretty sure it's a 215. Wouldn't make the hoppers happy, but I just need to keep the tank full for my set up.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by panhandler62

I'm pretty sure it's a 215. Wouldn't make the hoppers happy, but I just need to keep the tank full for my set up.

Yes, the 215 will work fine on a 3gal tank (mine is still working, or it was when I stopped using it).