Update on my truck

[chevychic]

Well I got my truck back Friday with no findings in the engine for the problem it's having. Just a reminder for those that don't know....
It drives awesome around town but after about 20 minutes on the freeway doing 70-75 it starts to miss badly. It'll continue to miss after I stop until I shut it off and let it sit for 10-15 minutes.
Compression is great, new plugs, new wires. The shop said the engine is in great condition. One shop told me I probably needed a rebuild so I was pretty worried last week.

The mechanic suggested replacing the ignition module, coil, and pickup coil. Just wanted to pass this along to all of you to make sure this sounds good to you and that we're not overlooking something.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to go ahead and replace the whole distributor with MSD HEI kit.

The real bad news that I got back from the mechanic has nothing to do with what I brought it in for. He said the steering box is trying to pull away from the frame but he didn't have the time to find out why.

After inspecting it over the weekend, this is what I found:





So what you're seeing here is the inside of the frame opposite the steering gear. Arrow #1 is showing the hole in the frame that I'm guessing happened when the PO had it. Arrow #2 is the weld kit where you can see cracks coming from the bolt hole. Arrow #3 is just showing the actual mounting hole for the steering box.
The bolt is totally gone. Where it went, or if it was ever there, I have no clue.

Luckily, I do have some good welding connections around here and will be taking it in for an estimate next week.
I called one shop just to get a general idea of what they charge before I go in to this other shop and was phone quoted $300 - $400.

So I'm still driving the Mitsu and taking my husband to work and I miss my truck badly!!!

[Captkaos]

Do you already have one of these:
http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/steeringkit.htm

http://www.coloradok5.com/ordframebrace.shtml

[79Silv4x4]

Yep, typical crack--you need both kits that Chris posted. You only need the first one if your frame isn't already cracked but since yours is you will need both.

[PHOENIX]

How is your timing? Any problems with your timing chain?

Heather are you planning on replacing the entire distributor or just giving it a tune-up? I suggest you replace the entire distr. Do you still have the stock ESC (Electronic Spark Control) distributor? If you do you will have some wires and a plug going from the distr. into the firewall just to the passenger side of the distr. The stock distr. gave me tons and tons of problems. Some mornings it would start, sometimes it wouldnt. Complete random and very frustrating. I repalced the module, the coil, the cap, the rotor, wires, plugs, etc. etc. etc.
Didnt solve the problem. I ended up getting a new distr. Been fine ever since.

Here is the one I bought. I must say for the price it is a nice distr.

http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...86&prmenbr=361

Since then I have replaced the coil and module with MSD.
Bought them off Swervin
The MSD module smoothed the idle out, but other then that I didnt notice much of a difference. But then again my engine is stock.
I hope that the msd module will be more dependable then the stock module that craps out whenever it feels like it, without warning.

EDIT:
From what you describe it sounds as if maybe something is getting hot and that when you get the miss. Maybe something inside the distr. is affected by the heat and thats what causes the problem.

[gldevall]

Would that be the Proform HEI distributor

[PHOENIX]

Yes

[RockHQ]

What rpm is the engine turning when you drive 70-75 on the highway and town?

[chevychic]

Chris: I've been planning on buying both of those for a bit now. But it looks like I'm going to be getting them sooner than I had planned. I wasn't too concerned since I don't do any off-roading yet and wasn't planning to until the running problems were straightened out.
I only want the bolt on kit. Since I don't weld, I'll have to take it to a shop and they can make a weld on frame brace that is thicker than any of the ones you can buy. The shop I was talking to yesterday handles of lot of these jobs and only uses the braces they build just because they are thicker.

Eddie: I was thinking about just replacing the entire distributor so I don't have to go through what you went through with replacing a bunch of stuff and it not fixing the problem.

RockHQ: Not sure...I don't have a tach

[old Rusty C10]

I would try the HEI brain first but make sure ya get a delco one cause the aftermarkets sometimes are terrible id never get a KEM one they just plain stink

[PHOENIX]

Bob,
I thought that gm/acdelco modules were the way to go, but they gave me just as many problems as the Autozone modules.
The MSD module has been working great so far.

[swervin ervin]

Heather,

it sounds to me that the coil is getting hot and causing the miss at higher rpm. Stock HEI coils are not a high rpm coil anyway. They start crapping out around 4500 rpm. When they start getting weak or going bad, the rpm drops even lower. If I were you, I wouldn't mess with upgrading the old distributor, unless you get it completely rebuilt. Even then, I would use a MSD coil and module in it. But, they ain't cheap, so for not much more money, you can buy the complete unit and be done with it.

The MSD distributors are pricey, but IMO, well worth every dollar. I won't run any ignition products on my truck other than MSD stuff. On a stock engine, it's overkill, sure, but if you are like me, I get tired of buying junk and having problems.

[chevychic]

Thanks Mike. I'm with you, I'd really like the MSD and I really don't want to have to mess with it for a long time after I get the new distributor installed, so I'd rather buy the MSD distributor right off.

How hard are they to install?

[Grim Reaper]

Originally posted by chevychic
Thanks Mike. I'm with you, I'd really like the MSD and I really don't want to have to mess with it for a long time after I get the new distributor installed, so I'd rather buy the MSD distributor right off.

How hard are they to install?

It's easy.
Turn the engine to TDC. Take the cap off. Figure out what the rotor is pointing at.

Take the bolt out of the lock down.

Slowly pull straight up and watch where the distributor rotor turns to.

Take the new distributor and get the rotor facing the same way the old one was when it came out.

Drop it in and make sure it's point back at what the old one was point at. If it is your set.
Install cap and wire it up and set your timing.

Looking at your steering box...those threads don't look so good in the box. A lot of that damage can come from the bolt getting loose in the first place. I hate to say it but if those threads are that chewed up you might be looking at replacing the box as well unless you can tap it out to the next larger size. Those bolts should be installed with locktite btw.

The steering brace is worth every penny on a lifted truck. It really makes a a improvement even on the street. I was going to put on on my wife's stock 79 Blazer but we decided to sell it before I got the chance.

[chevychic]

Originally posted by Grim Reaper

Looking at your steering box...those threads don't look so good in the box. A lot of that damage can come from the bolt getting loose in the first place. I hate to say it but if those threads are that chewed up you might be looking at replacing the box as well unless you can tap it out to the next larger size. Those bolts should be installed with locktite btw.

Thanks for the heads up. That's what's so great about this board. I can learn about this stuff ahead of time so when I find out from the shop, it's not such a shock

Is there anything that would keep us from being able to tap it out to a larger size?
Is this something that might be worth my while to look for at a junk yard or are steering boxes not good junk yard candidates?

[Grim Reaper]

Originally posted by chevychic


Thanks for the heads up. That's what's so great about this board. I can learn about this stuff ahead of time so when I find out from the shop, it's not such a shock

Is there anything that would keep us from being able to tap it out to a larger size?
Is this something that might be worth my while to look for at a junk yard or are steering boxes not good junk yard candidates?

You could tap out to a larger size without much problem but a Tap that size isn't cheap if you don't know somebody that has one. It will cause you a problem if you get a ORD brace. The brack has a sleeved peice that the larger bolt won't go through. I would really recomend the brace.

If it were mine I'm probably look for a replacement in a yard or in the For sale forum here or at www.ck5.com There are a few trucks being parted in both forums and you could probably pick up a good box for not much more then the tap that size would cost. Just be carefull what you buy. there is a wide and close ratio box. The wide is like 6 turns lock to lock and the close is I think 3.5 turns.

If your shopping for one in a yard look for one that still is hooked up to a reservior with a cap on it. As long as there is fluid in it that is not contaminated with water your usualy ok. Some yards yank engines not long after they come in and just cut the hoses. If your not finding any still hooked up look for the truck that has been there the least amount of time and still has a hood on that was keeping water out of the exposed lines.

Boxes usualy don't wear out. They tend to get replaced because they leak. You can reseal a box for about $15. Try to find one close to your year. Seems that the fittings changed some time in the 80's. Most 80's should be close ratio as well.

One last thing. There is supose to be a spacer on the bolt before it passes through the frame and bolts to the box. That spacer helps distribute the load evenly and keeps the points on the bolt head from digging into the frame or causing a stress point. The ORD brace has that built in but if you don't get a brace you need to find those spacers. They are about 3/4 of an inch long and just big enough to fit over the bolt and thick walled.

[Lester]

You have described to some extent two very common problems with either GM or aftermarket HEI distributors. One that everybody accurately pointed out may either be the module or the coil.

However, another frequently overlooked problem with HEI distributors is they are prone to missing horribly above 4K if the engine ground has been disconnected or failed. This is that little braided cable that runs from the valve cover or block to the cab or fame. Its only function is to ground the engine which sits in rubber mounts.

This is easy to replace and may just be your problem especially if you have recently had service on the engine or the engine out of the frame. I replace these with a battery cable run from the block to the frame on the pump side of the engine and remove this cable. I use a #4 battery cable with eyes on either end. This makes sure the engine is grounded, including the distributor. attache with stainless bolts and HEI lube and you should never have a problem with this cable or its connections again.

Before I spent big bucks on aftermarket stuff I'd swap this cable and run it down the road. I'd then pull the distributor and see if the mainshaft is snug in the housing, side to side play should be absolutley minimal to non-existant. If the shaft is snug in the housing I'd replace the coil, cap and rotor and run it down the road. Last I'd replace the module.

If the shaft is loose I'd buy a stock remanned NAPA HEI distributor before I bought a Proform or and MSD. GM makes an excellent distributor and a remanned unit works as well as new, does the same thing and probably costs less. Don't get caught in the sales hype.

Good luck.

Lester

[Grim Reaper]

Originally posted by Lester
You have described to some extent two very common problems with either GM or aftermarket HEI distributors. One that everybody accurately pointed out may either be the module or the coil.

However, another frequently overlooked problem with HEI distributors is they are prone to missing horribly above 4K if the engine ground has been disconnected or failed. This is that little braided cable that runs from the valve cover or block to the cab or fame. Its only function is to ground the engine which sits in rubber mounts.

This is easy to replace and may just be your problem especially if you have recently had service on the engine or the engine out of the frame. I replace these with a battery cable run from the block to the frame on the pump side of the engine and remove this cable. I use a #4 battery cable with eyes on either end. This makes sure the engine is grounded, including the distributor. attache with stainless bolts and HEI lube and you should never have a problem with this cable or its connections again.

Before I spent big bucks on aftermarket stuff I'd swap this cable and run it down the road. I'd then pull the distributor and see if the mainshaft is snug in the housing, side to side play should be absolutley minimal to non-existant. If the shaft is snug in the housing I'd replace the coil, cap and rotor and run it down the road. Last I'd replace the module.

If the shaft is loose I'd buy a stock remanned NAPA HEI distributor before I bought a Proform or and MSD. GM makes an excellent distributor and a remanned unit works as well as new, does the same thing and probably costs less. Don't get caught in the sales hype.

Good luck.

Lester

Good point about good grounds. The ground from engine to battery should be fine. If it wasn't then the truck would not crank. The ground off the passenger side head to fire wall could case problems and does cause a lot of problems. It is often forgotten if the engine or heads are removed. Where it would case problems is the body pulls it's ground through it.

Where this could cause an issue is if your truck has ESC spark control. The ESC grounds to the body not the engine. Some other symptoms that go along with a body grounding problem is bouncing gages when you use your turn signals, Stuff that works with the lights off don't work with the lights on and a whole host of other weird things can happen.

As for the ESC I'm not sure what years had it but it but there is a really good chance yours does and here is something to check that my be the whole problem. The ESC system has a knock sensor somewhere on the passengerside of the block or head. If the knock sensor hears ping or detonation then it will retard the timing. I would find that knock sensor and check the wire leading to it. It could be grounding out on the exhaust system or have a bad connection to the sensor. If you don't find any issue with the wires then unplug it and take it for a ride and see if the problem comes back. Now be careful because the truck may start pinging and that's not good for the engine. If the problem goes away or changes then you may have a bad knock sensor. It could be heat sensative and fail once hot.

If you find the system is defective I have one that I can't seem to give away. It's complete with Distributor, Brain and harness. Only thing missing is the knock sensor. None of my trucks run one so I have no use for it. It hasn't been in my way enough to get mad at it and throw it away but that day's coming. It's yours for the price of the ride if you need it.

[chevychic]

Hmmmm....grounds eh?

Now that you mention it, I did take notice of a braided ground that connects to the firewall. It seemed strange to me because it runs from the header. Seems like that would get quite hot. Is this ok? Where should it connect on the engine if not.

I'm 95% sure my truck is not equipped with ESC. According to my Chilton's manual, this was only on EFI and California trucks. Mine is neither. If by chance there is an ESC on my truck, what does it look like? My manual was pretty much useless.

[Lester]

Electronic controls, esc, ecm, etc started in 1983 and spread slowly through the entire line of GM cars and trucks.

Generally, if your engine has a vacuum advance distributor then you likely do not have any electronic controls unit that manages the distributor which would include the knock sensor which causes the control to advance or retard the timing based on what it thought it heard or did not hear. Most car and truck engines still have this technology in use today. It works.

I assumed you did not have any electronic controls based on the picture of the distributor you were considering purchasing. It has a vacuum can.

Early on GM used electronic controls to manage your timing, hence no vacuum can, manage your pollution controls devices and of all things the rods in the Qjet. That worked well, NOT.

The engine ground cable should not be connected to anything hot like your headers. As it heats up it loses ground. This was likely originally connected to one of the valve cover bolts or on top of the intake.

I connect mine as mentioned previously, from the block to the frame. I also run the same size cable from the same contact point on the frame to the cab for the reason mentioned in a previous post.

Good luck.

Lester

[swervin ervin]

The braided ground wire goes to the back of the head, not valve cover. As for a ESC distributor, it was on LE9 305's. I'm not sure what year exactly, but it started in the early 80's. All LE9's had the ESC distributor. If you have a wiring harness coming from the distributor to the passenger firewall, it's an ESC unit. But, since your engine had been replaced with a 350, the distributor my have been replaced also.

Now on the comment about MSD distributors compared to factory units. For one, there is no comparison between the two. Factory units were good for what they did, but most are totaly worn out and need a complete rebuild.

There is no sales hype when it comes to MSD. They are the absolute best distributor made. No stock unit can come close to them. I will agree, it's not needed in a stock situation, but if you want to not worry about it, go with a MSD distributor.

[chevychic]

I did a quick inspect of the wire this afternoon and although it doesn't appear to have touched the headers, the last 2" or so before the wire connects to the header is black. I'll go ahead and replace it as Lester described. It there a particular place that is easy to connect to on the head? I've never done this before and want to make sure I get it right the first time.

I verified that I do have a vacuum canister on my distributor and no wires to the passenger side firewall so I don't have to worry about ESC.

Still won't be able to drive it to see if it fixes the problem. The truck is parked until I get the crack fixed. Hopefully soon.

[Lester]

I mount mine to one of the bolts in the head on the front of the passneger side head then run the cable over to the passenger side frame.

If you look at the top of the frame rail across from the front of the engine you should see a ground wire attached to the frame. This should be the wire from the radiator support. I use one of the bolt holes in the head and this ground wire attach point point. I replace the frame rail body screw from GM with a stainless bolt, flat washers and lock nut. I clean off the surface and grease it with HEI grease. This is water proof grease that conducts electricity. It will take long time for this contact point to corrode.

I do the same on the head. A good alternative to the head bolt in the bolt tab on top of the alternator bracket. Attach in the same fashion.

Then run another cable along the top of the frame up to the ground wire location on the cab and attach the same way.

You are smart not drive your truck until you get the frame fixed.

Lester.

[CustomChevy]

I called one shop just to get a general idea of what they charge before I go in to this other shop and was phone quoted $300 - $400

Please say you're not going to pay that much for a little welding, holy crap! Any decent radiator/muffler shop can probably hook you up for $40. Even a high price should only be maybe $70-80. tops. SHOP around.

Good luck!

[chevychic]

Thanks Lester. That gives me a better idea of what I need to do.

Originally posted by CustomChevy



Please say you're not going to pay that much for a little welding, holy crap! Any decent radiator/muffler shop can probably hook you up for $40. Even a high price should only be maybe $70-80. tops. SHOP around.

Good luck!

I'm taking it into a different shop this week to get a quote. This shop is a client of one of my friends that works at a welding supply store. He's telling the guy I'm his girlfriend so I can get a good price so hopefully prices will be much less.

If all else fails, I have another good friend that I used to hang out with several years ago when I was in one of the local custom clubs. His dad ran a chop n' drop shop out of his garage (not the illegal kind ) and he's been doing a lot of body and frame modding since. He'd do it in a second for about $50 bucks.
Thing about this is, I don't want to mess around. I want it done right. I want someone with experience with this problem. I want the other weld kit removed, the frame patched, a new, thicker weld kit installed, and the bolt on kit in addition to all of that. If someone can do all of that for $50 bucks, cool. I'll keep shopping around

The shop I called is the best in town and will do all of this. I just called them to get a baseline for the best then I'll go from there.

[Grim Reaper]

As long as the directions are followed on where to weld the patch should be a no brainer for somebody with some welding experiance. You do not wan't to weld the totale perimiter of the patch. It will be weaker then welding it the way the directions say. On www.ck5.com in either the tech section or the product review section is this exact repair detailed. The repair was on Steve Fox's truck (Mr. CK5) and I think Stephen Watson (Mr.ORD) did the repair.

The big issue is that missing chunk of frame has to be replaced/filled. Best thing to do is cout out that area a little and use some 3/16 plate and make a little filler peice and weld it in before the patch is welded in. Has to be done or the steering brace will not fit properly. Even if you don't put the brace on it still needs to be done to restore the strength and spacing.