"Budget" air kit definitions please!

[PBFAB.COM]

We are working on putting a handful of Value or "Budget" oriented kits together. But we would like a little feedback as to what this means to the end user... a little bit of a virtual focus group if you will.

There is really only so much that can be done to provide quality parts when it comes to the actual dollar amount. But there's always things that can be tweaked a little to try and manipulate the bottom line without sacrificing the quality.

So... to any and all those reading this thread, please provide us with some feedback as to what you feel the definition of a "Budget" kit actually is.

In my mind, I define it as being a basic system that is a solid base that includes quality parts that are designed to function well together and that can easily be upgraded in the future.

We are working on a couple kits that would be similar to our Stage 1 front and Rear combos with some other add-ons including a couple of entry level air management systems.

My main questions would be:

What is a realistic expected budget?

and what would you be expecting/hoping for with that money?

We have seen several requests for kits that start in the $1500 range and span up to the $2500-$3000 mark. And are currently developing some specific kits to meet this criteria. Just looking for a little feedback to see what you guys think.

Nate

[SCOTI]

I'll help get things started..... "Budget" means 'basic' to me so that would be the parts needed to get it on air w/o upgrades.

Hard Parts
Bags + installation brackets & hardware (if required)
Shocks (spec'd or relocation brackets that allow the use of off the shelf replacement C10 shocks).
Airline + necessary fittings
Installation hardware for the bags

Air Mgt
Paddle valves (budget/basic)
compressor/s
air tank/s
gauges
+ related installation items (inline fuses, relays, fittings etc)

Obviously one can do bags w/schraders but that would mean getting the hard parts & not using an air mgt set-up. I would recommend schraders only for temporary use....

[PGSigns]

Every one has a different idea on budget, some folks shop nothing but price. My idea of budget is getting the best value for the money I have available. I think if you develop ways to get a truck on air with systems that are well engineered, are a good value for what you get and are grouped in ways you can select the components that fit your budget is the way to go. Scotts groups are good way to market the options. First drop down menu is hard parts and second one is air management. The first option should be a complete basic setup with everything needed. Then ad ons or upgrades that work with the first selection. That way you know what you can get that fits your budget but also know the baseline will get you what you need to get up and running on air.
Jimmy

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I'll help get things started..... "Budget" means 'basic' to me so that would be the parts needed to get it on air w/o upgrades.

Hard Parts
Bags + installation brackets & hardware (if required)
Shocks (spec'd or relocation brackets that allow the use of off the shelf replacement C10 shocks).
Airline + necessary fittings
Installation hardware for the bags

Air Mgt
Paddle valves (budget/basic)
compressor/s
air tank/s
gauges
+ related installation items (inline fuses, relays, fittings etc)

Obviously one can do bags w/schraders but that would mean getting the hard parts & not using an air mgt set-up. I would recommend schraders only for temporary use....

Originally Posted by PGSigns

Every one has a different idea on budget, some folks shop nothing but price. My idea of budget is getting the best value for the money I have available. I think if you develop ways to get a truck on air with systems that are well engineered, are a good value for what you get and are grouped in ways you can select the components that fit your budget is the way to go. Scotts groups are good way to market the options. First drop down menu is hard parts and second one is air management. The first option should be a complete basic setup with everything needed. Then ad ons or upgrades that work with the first selection. That way you know what you can get that fits your budget but also know the baseline will get you what you need to get up and running on air.
Jimmy

Sounds like we are on the right track so far.

Thanks for the input!

Keep the opinions coming!

Nate

[slowcpe]

I think your current Stage 1 and 2 kits are pretty much perfect. Even though I'm only using the c-notches out of the rear Stage 2 kit, I was very happy with the quality and price of those kits.

However it would have been nice to purchase that kit with a basic air management kit similar to what SCOTI recommended. While you may have experienced lost revenue from me by buying a simple kit, it would have been nice to receive everything I needed in one easy-to-install setup that is proven to work.

I personally would not try to cut any corners on your current kits to get a lower introductory price. Your brand is not considered to be low-end and it shouldn't be. There's quite a bit of pride-in-ownership in knowing a truck is running Porterbuilt gear.

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by slowcpe

I think your current Stage 1 and 2 kits are pretty much perfect. Even though I'm only using the c-notches out of the rear Stage 2 kit, I was very happy with the quality and price of those kits.

However it would have been nice to purchase that kit with a basic air management kit similar to what SCOTI recommended. While you may have experienced lost revenue from me by buying a simple kit, it would have been nice to receive everything I needed in one easy-to-install setup that is proven to work.

I personally would not try to cut any corners on your current kits to get a lower introductory price. Your brand is not considered to be low-end and it shouldn't be. There's quite a bit of pride-in-ownership in knowing a truck is running Porterbuilt gear.

Don't worry... we have no plans to cut corners on the quality of the parts! Our intent is not to try and compete with the low price, low quality "budget" kits that are currently on the market (most of them I wouldn't even classify as a kit).

The goal is to provide a "Value" entry level kit that starts with a solid base of quality PB parts. The integrity of our brand will not be jeopardized.... we are just looking to broaden our market share when it comes to the customer base not looking to put their C10 all the way to the pavement.

The base of the kit will be our existing Stage 1 front and rear kits with a trac-bar and the option of a c-notch. The upgrades and options will be in the shock and air management side of things.

We have a solid plan in place. I was just looking to hear some feedback.

Thanks for all the comments thus far!

Nate

[BR3W CITY]

$2500 ALL IN is what I would consider a legit budget kit, assuming (as mentioned above) that the quality of all peices is comparable to parts one would put together themselves.

Here's why:
Most likely the kit would be 3link as its the cheapest/simplest design, and can be very easily setup for multiple generations of trucks minimizing your costs on multiple SKU's for the kit.
The kit would contain convoluted bags and not sleeve bags. I feel sleeve bags are inferior, but often what get tossed into "cheap" kits. Also, that the size of the bags be appropriate for the vehicle in question (i.e. not selling people a 5" bag for a 3500 truck rear).
The kit would contain at minimum enough valves and switches for FB, and use quality rebuildable brass valves.
A control box for FB
A decent volume compressor and at minimum 10gal of tank space.
The kit would contain DOT line, assortment of fittings, and a cutting tool.
The kit would contain shock relocation mounts if needed (but NOT include shocks, which I feel is a place best left to the consumer to spend what their budget allows).

Putting all that together yourself can come in under $2500, but nickle and dime things like fittings, switches etc are the things that seems to really skyrocket the cost. That $2500 pricetag would basically ensure enough material to setup almost any generation of truck, and have enough room in the margin that you wouldn't have to try to "make up" the margin on other parts later. It would also be cheap enough that someone wanting to go FBSS, or add compressors or tanks..would have enough room in say a $5k budget to do so and still come out ahead.

In general, I also feel that $2500 seems to be the breaking point for the single-purchase budget of most middle class enthusiasts. Its cheap enough that a highschool or college kid who works hard and saves can afford it in a summer or two, or that a family man can write the check and still pay his mortgage that month.......yet its expensive enough that the expectation of paying for quality still exists.


Can someone build their own kit and have it cost $500, sure. Can someone build their own kit and have it cost $15k, hell yes its happened (double cantilever on air cylinders)....but I think $2500 is cheap enough to be "worth it" even for a DIY'er who was considering piecing it together.

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by BR3W CITY

$2500 ALL IN is what I would consider a legit budget kit, assuming (as mentioned above) that the quality of all peices is comparable to parts one would put together themselves.

Here's why:
Most likely the kit would be 3link as its the cheapest/simplest design, and can be very easily setup for multiple generations of trucks minimizing your costs on multiple SKU's for the kit.
The kit would contain convoluted bags and not sleeve bags. I feel sleeve bags are inferior, but often what get tossed into "cheap" kits. Also, that the size of the bags be appropriate for the vehicle in question (i.e. not selling people a 5" bag for a 3500 truck rear).
The kit would contain at minimum enough valves and switches for FB, and use quality rebuildable brass valves.
A control box for FB
A decent volume compressor and at minimum 10gal of tank space.
The kit would contain DOT line, assortment of fittings, and a cutting tool.
The kit would contain shock relocation mounts if needed (but NOT include shocks, which I feel is a place best left to the consumer to spend what their budget allows).

Putting all that together yourself can come in under $2500, but nickle and dime things like fittings, switches etc are the things that seems to really skyrocket the cost. That $2500 pricetag would basically ensure enough material to setup almost any generation of truck, and have enough room in the margin that you wouldn't have to try to "make up" the margin on other parts later. It would also be cheap enough that someone wanting to go FBSS, or add compressors or tanks..would have enough room in say a $5k budget to do so and still come out ahead.

In general, I also feel that $2500 seems to be the breaking point for the single-purchase budget of most middle class enthusiasts. Its cheap enough that a highschool or college kid who works hard and saves can afford it in a summer or two, or that a family man can write the check and still pay his mortgage that month.......yet its expensive enough that the expectation of paying for quality still exists.


Can someone build their own kit and have it cost $500, sure. Can someone build their own kit and have it cost $15k, hell yes its happened (double cantilever on air cylinders)....but I think $2500 is cheap enough to be "worth it" even for a DIY'er who was considering piecing it together.

Thanks for the feedback!

This particular project will be to provide a kit that is more geared to those with modest mechanical skills, and not wanting to modify the front inner wheel tubs and bed floors.

The bulk of the cost will be in the air management.

I would only really question one comment that was made in reference to the sleeved bag... they definitely aren't inferior to a double convoluted bag. They each have their place and are designed/intended to be used and function in a certain way.

There's a reason that the majority of reputable companies that design and manufacture their own kits run a sleeved bag on the rear of a truck the majority of the time if not almost always.

Nate

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by PBFAB.COM

I would only really question one comment that was made in reference to the sleeved bag... they definitely aren't inferior to a double convoluted bag. They each have their place and are designed/intended to be used and function in a certain way.

There's a reason that the majority of reputable companies that design and manufacture their own kits run a sleeved bag on the rear of a truck the majority of the time if not almost always.

Nate

No argument here from me, but I'll give you an insight into why i feel that way;
When I started messing with air was during the peak on mini-truck craziness, when the Thorbecke Bro's were still "suicidedoors", and when things like air-cylinders and shockwaves barely existed. Now at that time, the majority of sleeve bags being used were the oldschool Firestone's, or the overseas version of the same thing. When those bags were compared to the quality of something like a Slam RE-series (with internal bumpstops and all the goodies that weren't market-standard)...they just didn't compare.

Not to mention the issues folks would report about thin or easily damaged outer sleeves, the metal collars separating, and those bags not standing up to hopping or c02 setups.

I know that sleeve bags have certain fitment advantages, and that semi's use them and all that...but personally I just haven't been firsthand impressed with sleeve bags in general.

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by BR3W CITY

No argument here from me, but I'll give you an insight into why i feel that way;
When I started messing with air was during the peak on mini-truck craziness, when the Thorbecke Bro's were still "suicidedoors", and when things like air-cylinders and shockwaves barely existed. Now at that time, the majority of sleeve bags being used were the oldschool Firestone's, or the overseas version of the same thing. When those bags were compared to the quality of something like a Slam RE-series (with internal bumpstops and all the goodies that weren't market-standard)...they just didn't compare.

Not to mention the issues folks would report about thin or easily damaged outer sleeves, the metal collars separating, and those bags not standing up to hopping or c02 setups.

I know that sleeve bags have certain fitment advantages, and that semi's use them and all that...but personally I just haven't been firsthand impressed with sleeve bags in general.

I understand your opinion, and respect it for sure. I just don't agree with it and can't set back and let my beloved sleeved bags suffer unjustified abuse!

It happens all the time.... in more areas than just air suspension. Wive's tales and misconceptions, mainly based off misinformation and misuse of a certain product leads to a bad wrap.

This is probably one of the more common debates in the air suspension realm.

The facts behind it are as follows:

On a sleeved bag the lower composite mount acts as a piston, and as the bag compresses under load the air is displaced by the "piston" and pushes outward on the bag. This yields a pretty linear spring rate throughout its travel. In other words, the spring rate is fairly consistent throughout the bag's travel.

A double convoluted bag has no displacement in it's function, but compresses the air and yields an exponential spring rate (this means the spring rate changes a lot throughout its travel, and as the bag approaches its maximum and minimum limits the rate of change becomes greater and greater). This exponential spring rate would be considered less consistent.

With that said, both bags have their place. A sleeved bag typically has a lower load capacity and is not designed to be levered at a high ratio. Whereas a double convoluted bag has a much greater load capacity and is designed to be levered. In most applications, if the double convoluted bag is NOT levered, the spring rate will be too high and the ride quality will suffer.

Sleeved bags do require a bit more effort to employ when designing/building a rear suspension. Their travel needs to be limited by either a strap or a shock. If not, the crimp can fail and the bag will be ruined. They also are not designed to be used in applications that "hop" or use extreme pressures. They just won't hold up.

Although the sleeved bag does have some fitment advantages, that is the least of its benefits. When used in the proper way, in the proper application, it is the best solution and will outperform a double convoluted bag hands down.

The bad wrap the sleeved bag gets is far from deserved.

Nate

[69gmcc10]

I think this is a great subject and as a business owner myself and as a manager of other businesses before that (nothing to do with auto repair, maintenance, or modification industry), and I have always struggled with providing the same thing you are trying to provide to your customers or potential customers.

First, the use of the word "budget" should be thrown out the window and never used, not necessarily by you but everyone (customer and business), but it never will be. Most every person has a "budget", it is a relative term, and some people have a $500 budget and some have a $40,000 budget and sometimes the budget they have gets thrown out the window.

Second, What any good business person is looking to offer to there customer is "value" and "value" comes in a plethora of different ways. "Value" can be a good product for a reasonable price, it can also be the expertise of the person you are buying the product from and the knowledge they provide to the customer, it can simply be the quality of the product regardless of price compared to there competitor that makes it a value, and there are many other ways to add "value." People only concerned with price are the last people a business wants as a customer, they are overwhelmed with problems.

The largest issue business owners run into today is trying to please a percentage of the potential customer base that will always complain about price regardless of quality or the "value" associated with the product they are planing to purchase, or who they are purchasing it from. More and More, in a society that researches, finds what they want and then goes on line to get it for the lowest possible price, regardless of its source or "value" (quality bundled into value), is damaging to quality businesses. It is especially damaging to small businesses trying to compete on a global scale that does not have access to cheap labor, the easiest place to cut costs. But, why am I telling you this? You fight this battle every day.

I do think that you are doing it correct in your current business practices and the products you sell. Product packaging and flexibility as we are talking about are excellent ways to add even more "value" to an already excellent business plan that is mostly already in place, but increasing awareness abut the "product packages" you currently do provide, and filling any holes of any demographic you are missing will add even more "value" to an already excellent company.

I like the idea you stated earlier of, more or less, starting with a affordable value oriented system and expand as you budget, wants, and needs allow. The one thing I do not see on your website is an air management system that has analog valves, something when the customer out grows that they can upgrade to something like your switch speed or e-level systems. That might open up a new price point for your customer base that can add value and not compromise quality or margin? But, your switch speed system and stage 1 kit front and rear is about $2200 and in my opinion is a good place to start with if you want to go with bags.

I think the real question to ask is at what price are people willing to convert form coils to air? That is the segment of customers a business wants to develop. I don't think your competition is other people selling air systems but moving people over to air in a easy to order, all-in-one product. The people hunting for "cheap" deals, or to use the word they like to justify there frugality with, "budget", know what they want and are only really looking for a cheap price. How do you push the people that understand the quality and "value" you provide that are standing on the fence weather to go air or coil to land on your side? How do you create those customers and not just buy customers looking for a deal?

People in the static world respect you and your company, and many of them are on the fence to go bag or static. With a price of $800 for a static 4/6 drop from another well respected competitor, I think you can convert people to a bare bones air system with better ride and adjustability for about $1250. That I think that would turn some heads and sway some people, I certainly know what my next suspension would be without a doubt for that price (I am one of the static guys on the fence). But can you make that profitable for your business? I don't know if you can provide a system of reasonable quality for that price and not loose money? Don't cut your teeth searching for unappreciative customers.

BTW, I love that you trust this forum so much to share with us this kind of stuff and you use us as your feasibility focus group! I hope you find the answers you need.

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by 69gmcc10

I think this is a great subject and as a business owner myself and as a manager of other businesses before that (nothing to do with auto repair, maintenance, or modification industry), and I have always struggled with providing the same thing you are trying to provide to your customers or potential customers.

First, the use of the word "budget" should be thrown out the window and never used, not necessarily by you but everyone (customer and business), but it never will be. Most every person has a "budget", it is a relative term, and some people have a $500 budget and some have a $40,000 budget and sometimes the budget they have gets thrown out the window.

Second, What any good business person is looking to offer to there customer is "value" and "value" comes in a plethora of different ways. "Value" can be a good product for a reasonable price, it can also be the expertise of the person you are buying the product from and the knowledge they provide to the customer, it can simply be the quality of the product regardless of price compared to there competitor that makes it a value, and there are many other ways to add "value." People only concerned with price are the last people a business wants as a customer, they are overwhelmed with problems.

The largest issue business owners run into today is trying to please a percentage of the potential customer base that will always complain about price regardless of quality or the "value" associated with the product they are planing to purchase, or who they are purchasing it from. More and More, in a society that researches, finds what they want and then goes on line to get it for the lowest possible price, regardless of its source or "value" (quality bundled into value), is damaging to quality businesses. It is especially damaging to small businesses trying to compete on a global scale that does not have access to cheap labor, the easiest place to cut costs. But, why am I telling you this? You fight this battle every day.

I do think that you are doing it correct in your current business practices and the products you sell. Product packaging and flexibility as we are talking about are excellent ways to add even more "value" to an already excellent business plan that is mostly already in place, but increasing awareness abut the "product packages" you currently do provide, and filling any holes of any demographic you are missing will add even more "value" to an already excellent company.

I like the idea you stated earlier of, more or less, starting with a affordable value oriented system and expand as you budget, wants, and needs allow. The one thing I do not see on your website is an air management system that has analog valves, something when the customer out grows that they can upgrade to something like your switch speed or e-level systems. That might open up a new price point for your customer base that can add value and not compromise quality or margin? But, your switch speed system and stage 1 kit front and rear is about $2200 and in my opinion is a good place to start with if you want to go with bags.

I think the real question to ask is at what price are people willing to convert form coils to air? That is the segment of customers a business wants to develop. I don't think your competition is other people selling air systems but moving people over to air in a easy to order, all-in-one product. The people hunting for "cheap" deals, or to use the word they like to justify there frugality with, "budget", know what they want and are only really looking for a cheap price. How do you push the people that understand the quality and "value" you provide that are standing on the fence weather to go air or coil to land on your side? How do you create those customers and not just buy customers looking for a deal?

People in the static world respect you and your company, and many of them are on the fence to go bag or static. With a price of $800 for a static 4/6 drop from another well respected competitor, I think you can convert people to a bare bones air system with better ride and adjustability for about $1250. That I think that would turn some heads and sway some people, I certainly know what my next suspension would be without a doubt for that price (I am one of the static guys on the fence). But can you make that profitable for your business? I don't know if you can provide a system of reasonable quality for that price and not loose money? Don't cut your teeth searching for unappreciative customers.

BTW, I love that you trust this forum so much to share with us this kind of stuff and you use us as your feasibility focus group! I hope you find the answers you need.

This is great feedback, and I appreciate you taking the time to respond in such a thorough manner.

The reason I used the word "Budget" in the title, was in an effort to gain a little more interest and possibly feedback.

I am in 100% agreement with your philosophy when it comes to the differences between the word "budget" and "value". People's interpretation and definitions of this (and anything else for that matter) is influenced by their perspective. Everybody has a little different mindset, and I understand that.

Our goal is definitely not to capture the individual looking to find the least expensive product that is advertised to do the task. But to provide the consumer looking to maximize his/her budget when it comes to a moderate air suspension conversion, a system that contains quality parts, is designed to work together and function as intended, and be able to be installed by the weekend enthusiast in his/her garage. (This will be a kit that does not require mods to inner wheel wells or bed floor).

It isn't necessarily intended to capture the fence sitters that aren't sure on whether or not they want air suspension or a static drop (we are also working hard on developing our static line) ... but to be a solid solution to those that already know they want air, just might not be 100% sure on how they will accomplish it. The thought of installing an air suspension can be both exciting and overwhelming. Our objective will be to provide the product/content/instructions/and service in a way that will build the end users' confidence and differentiate our product as well as highlight its "value".

Price point on the parts will only be dictated by a cost and margin calculation. I have been doing things long enough to know that if we can't make money doing it, then we better not do it. Our goal is to continue to grow and provide truck enthusiasts with suspension solutions for years to come. The only way to make that happen is to be profitable.

I am grateful for all the responses thus far. This forum is what really helped boost PB when we were just a little more than a dream. I have always valued and respected the individuals that frequent this place. There is a broad enough demographic where it only makes sense to come seek input and information.

Thanks again for all your help guys! Keep the comments coming. We will have more details in the upcoming weeks.

Nate