How would you build the most dependable LS motor?

[kipps]

This could be opening a can of worms, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

If the budget was generous, how would you build a LS engine to guarantee trouble free performance for over 200k miles? What mods, what deletes, what gets replaced, what brands do you use?

Assuming a nearly stock HP situation, being built for every day driveability.

I'm not intending to do this, since at the moment I just want to get mine on the road without spending a lot more. I just thought it would be an interesting reference for future builds.

Edit to add: another way of putting the question. If I came to you and asked you to build me an engine and warranty it for 200k miles(assuming I bring it to you for servicing), what would you build? What oil and filters would you use? Or would you flat-out refuse, saying there's no way you can guarantee that long of a life?

[mongocanfly]

I had put over285k on my 1st LS when I traded it off...never a issue except changed water pump...
ive seen many more with extreme high mileage..still going
so id think they are fine just the way they are..200k for a LS is just getting broke in

[Heavymetl]

I'd make sure all the wiring for the swap was done as professionally and cleanly as possible. Good connections, shrink wrap, clean routing, protected from the elements, heat, and chafing.

I'd run an in tank fuel pump, preferably a stock OEM type setup if possible.

Make sure the fuel lines were ran cleanly and free of chafing wear, and protected from exhaust heat where applicable.

The engine itself? Eh, any junkyard LS that's not suffering from an obvious problem should go 300k easily. Almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of swap reliability.

[77c10bowtie]

want it to last 200k or 300k, don't open it up. the best that the engine was ever built was when it was built by the factory.

[Willie Makeit]

Originally Posted by 77c10bowtie

want it to last 200k or 300k, don't open it up. the best that the engine was ever built was when it was built by the factory.

Best advice yet.

[kipps]

Originally Posted by 77c10bowtie

want it to last 200k or 300k, don't open it up. the best that the engine was ever built was when it was built by the factory.

It would seem that AFM changes that advice pretty fast...

[Willie Makeit]

Originally Posted by kipps

It would seem that AFM changes that advice pretty fast...

changing a cam, lifters and timing chain doesn't require complete disassembly.

if your budget is truly unlimited, then order a new GM Performance LSx (available in a multitude of different configurations). It even comes with a warranty for the worry-wart types.

[Custom 68]

Like said, my 2004 Tahoe has 231,000 miles It has been flawless since new.

[BR3W CITY]

If we're talking genIII for stockish power, I'd go with:
6.0 short block with a mostly stock rotating assembly. I'd upgrade the rod bolts on an earlier year donor, its less needed on the late 03-up, and in some cases not needed at all if it doesn't see rpm or boost.
Your choice of cathedral port heads, but the stock 317's again serve their purpose just fine. LS7 superseded lifters, LS9 head gasket, upgrade to ditch the needle bearing rockers. Hardened pushrods probably aren't needed but I like them.
Either the truck intake/TB combo or the car style for the slight flow upgrade and larger TB options. Either way I'd run a return style fuel system with a standard external filter, and in-tank pump.

I'd also consider the same above setup, instead using L92 style heads/intake and running it off the later GenIV ECM and DBW control.

[77c10bowtie]

Originally Posted by kipps

It would seem that AFM changes that advice pretty fast...

these days changing a cam isnt that much harder than changing waterpump if you know what you are doing. by opening it up i mean don't change any bearings or remove the bottom end in any way. you have to pull the intake to get the motor out so a waterpump, crank pulley and front cover isn't really messing with much to get to a cam.

[Nodnarb76]

Sounds like you have the same goals in your swap that I did with mine.
I wasn't interested in making big HP, I just wanted reliability. Something I could take my kids across country and not worry about it.
My Motor came with about 100,000 miles on it. I didn't want to crack it open, but I did replace all the external items I thought may give me trouble later down the road.
I replaced the waterpump, thermostat, O2 Sensors, Starter, altenator, coils, wires, plugs, MAF and drive belt.
I have put 12,000 trouble free miles on it in 3 years.

[95 S_Trucker]

Originally Posted by 77c10bowtie

these days changing a cam isnt that much harder than changing waterpump if you know what you are doing. by opening it up i mean don't change any bearings or remove the bottom end in any way. you have to pull the intake to get the motor out so a waterpump, crank pulley and front cover isn't really messing with much to get to a cam.

You have to remove the lifters to change the cam. The cylinder heads need removed to get the lifters out.

I’d say it’s a little more involved than a water pump.

[kipps]

Originally Posted by 95 S_Trucker

You have to remove the lifters to change the cam...

Technically not, but since an AFM delete requires replacing the lifters, they have to come out for that reason.

I'm told the camshaft can be spun over by hand a time or two(after pushrods and rockers are removed), withdrawn, and the new one inserted before the lifters drop back down.

[mrjerrye]

Originally Posted by kipps

Technically not, but since an AFM delete requires replacing the lifters, they have to come out for that reason.

I'm told the camshaft can be spun over by hand a time or two(after pushrods and rockers are removed), withdrawn, and the new one inserted before the lifters drop back down.

You can swap a cam in an LS without removing the heads. Ive seen videos of people just spinning the cam and pulling it out. The lifter trays hold them in place long enough. However, you can also use a rod in the front of the engine to hold the lifters if you dont want to chance a lifter dropping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVzgxh73o78

[LH Lead-Foot]

A few notes;
If going for a little extra camshaft action, remember you have to remove the CMP at the back the intake valley or damage it. The "LS' engine family camshaft creates a noticeable personality. Research for type of use. Just break it in correctly which is backward for many...as you run it at 1,500 RPM of 10 minutes or so.

Plus, if you pop the front seal out, or just remove the frt. cover for some TC&G action or a higher volume Melling oil pump, the cover has to be centered or risk a leak. They sell these centering rings from plastic to metal starting at $40.
I found a proper sized piece of metal, grind a small radius in it to fit good between front cover and the crankshafts nose to position the seal dead center or it will leak. They sell these centering rings from plastic to metal starting at $40. Also, getting the balancer back on requires a longer bolt sold for $20 or hammer it far enough to start the old bolt. Pay no attention to the "Thrust Bearings Screaming At You", or DO pay attention and use longer bolt to start.

If header or factory cast iron, oblong the end holes to help keep the bolts from breaking off in the future. Use a flat wash under the head to allow sliding because aluminum and iron move with heat at 2 to 1.
(I cheat, using a rat tail file in a drill chuck while holding the back with a piece of pipe, then push the direction)

Re-read the post by "BR3W CITY" as he made a good point, that could go unnoticed, but it was mentioned to junk the rocker needle bearings. These rocker arm bearing has known to fail for no reason other than the last place to get oiled.
They sell captured cup type needle bearings, trunions, grade 8 bolts and to washer shaped tools. Now, you re-use the rocker by pressing the OEM type bearing out using a press, arbor press or bench vise. Just make sure all is clean, use oil and go straight. The $50 ones a from China and use 5140 general iron alloy for the trunions with captured cup needle bearings...and honestly is probably what GM used. Now you can go U.S. made starting at $100, or go with bronze bushings that will handle pressure generated by high lift camshafts...that you don't have. Mainly, over time no one wants needle bearing sucked up into the engine and oil supply system.

Truck intakes are ugly but provide great hard pulling low end torque. The plenums volume is limited to 43 cu. in. available but work great for any grocery getter. Car intakes with cathedral port limit the choice, but may require a different height of injectors and maybe return-less fuel to the tank. So research is required. Car intakes suffer low end torque but allow faster air flow at high end above 4,500 RPM and up.
(Long runner = low end torque / Short runner = higher speed)

Depending on the mileage of the donor, I would consider re-sealing the engine with new gasket set. You don't need to pull the heads, but make sure your torque wrench has been calibrated (SnapOn Use to do that / If made by SnapOn), but use torque table, careful of any torque to yield bolts that need to be replaced and say ARP bolts.

If you do a re-seal, I would plastic-gauge the bearings but that's just me. A re-seal and knowing bearing clearance will allow me to sleep better.

I have alway packed the back side of any seal that uses a garter spring with wheel bearing grease. The "LS" engines rear seal go in dry as it has a shape cup inside that pops out during installation.

New brushes in the starter and alternator are worth looking at and cheap to do at home. Just clean up the commutator with some crocus cloth or some 400 grit. Just place some duct tape on the back, cut to width to make last. AD244 is not hot to work on, although I have a 450 watt SnapOn soldering gun, but use compressed air to remove liquid solder when hot. I have 3 ACDelco truck water pumps new in box and one late model to 2017, but saving one for myself.

The best time to do some things and know you are off to a good start is when the engine is on the stand, rather than in the vehicle. Funny how even factory service manuals show changing a Timing Belt while on a stand...but it's not.

[truckdude239]

Dont touch it just reseal all the oil seals my Tahoe with 5.3 died at 369k well that was when i replaced it as the trans died and it was puking oil faster then i could fill it i put 150k motor and trans in it all i did was valve cover gaskets intake gaskets knock sensors the valley gaskets the rear main seal water pump let it roll

[72GreenMonster]

Originally Posted by 77c10bowtie

these days changing a cam isnt that much harder than changing waterpump if you know what you are doing. by opening it up i mean don't change any bearings or remove the bottom end in any way. you have to pull the intake to get the motor out so a waterpump, crank pulley and front cover isn't really messing with much to get to a cam.

Not to hijack but while we're building yes or no to bottom end?
So leave the bottom end alone even an unknown junkyard dog?

Plasti for clearance and don't do the bearings. My wallet wants to do this but its on the stand.

Catch a few videos and posts where the bottom is stock untouched with new parts and even boost in some cases..

Thoughts on this appreciated

[homemade87]

Originally Posted by mrjerrye

You can swap a cam in an LS without removing the heads. Ive seen videos of people just spinning the cam and pulling it out. The lifter trays hold them in place long enough. However, you can also use a rod in the front of the engine to hold the lifters if you dont want to chance a lifter dropping.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVzgxh73o78

This is highly recomended to use a rod . Those lifter trays do wear and can allow a lifter to drop . If it does it makes a simple cam swap not so simple anymore . No need to take a chance .

[LH Lead-Foot]

All I said was "IF" you want to...

I don't know your year or mileage and most importantly, what someone else has done to it before it came home to you. Plus, I don't know how much work you want to do after it's in.
Just trying to stick to the "Title" of the post. The rest is up to you.

Yes, there are guys who work on these wonderful power plants everyday, but experience tells me some can can be done on the cheap right now while on the stand. That's all!

I have spent years fixing and properly repairing anything with a motor and you have to, before taking all 8 NIASE or now call ASE test as some questions are not in a book. I work in small shops before looking for benefits that a dealer might offer, easy hire first try. One year in, the service manage offered a $0.5 raise for each test passed. I could use the extra $0.40 per plate hour and got my letter showing I passed all 8. The front of the building said "DATSUN". Flat rate for customers was $24 per hour and techs got almost $7.

Most all work is done inside the vehicle and on the stand is the time for knowing what you got. I do not know what the deal is with knock sensor replacement. A piezo device that produces an A/C type wave signal while newer electronics, the PCM places a low current 5 volt DC signal as a carrier on the signal. Never seen one go bad.

But for my wallet to as well as laying on my back working inside or having to pull it again would be a shame. Just my $0.2 worth.

[72GreenMonster]

Originally Posted by LH Lead-Foot

All I said was "IF" you want to...

I don't know your year or mileage and most importantly, what someone else has done to it before it came home to you. Plus, I don't know how much work you want to do after it's in.
Just trying to stick to the "Title" of the post. The rest is up to you.

Yes, there are guys who work on these wonderful power plants everyday, but experience tells me some can can be done on the cheap right now while on the stand. That's all!

I have spent years fixing and properly repairing anything with a motor and you have to, before taking all 8 NIASE or now call ASE test as some questions are not in a book. I work in small shops before looking for benefits that a dealer might offer, easy hire first try. One year in, the service manage offered a $0.5 raise for each test passed. I could use the extra $0.40 per plate hour and got my letter showing I passed all 8. The front of the building said "DATSUN". Flat rate for customers was $24 per hour and techs got almost $7.

Most all work is done inside the vehicle and on the stand is the time for knowing what you got. I do not know what the deal is with knock sensor replacement. A piezo device that produces an A/C type wave signal while newer electronics, the PCM places a low current 5 volt DC signal as a carrier on the signal. Never seen one go bad.

But for my wallet to as well as laying on my back working inside or having to pull it again would be a shame. Just my $0.2 worth.

Appreciate your tenure as a seasoned tech helping the diyer, to do the right thing. I bought alot of new parts with the intent of not revisiting. Going to inspect, plastigauge and at the very least machine shop for the vital stuff but tempted to assemble myself. Been a while since my elco and doing the 283 but well said !! I could use $24 as a shop rate today and be done with it but i just got rear ended and so my machine shop $ turned into my deductible thanks to uninsured motorists. Any how i will share soon on progress worth sharing. Thanks again

[72GreenMonster]

Building it dependable would be listening to an experienced te ch but also doing as much as budget will allow to get in my case 17 year old ls back to snuff.
My actual list
Gaskets
Cam
Lifters
Push rods
Ls springs
Trunion kit
Val ve job
Injectors
Coils
Wpump
Alternator
Ps pump
Machine shop waiting $$

[LH Lead-Foot]

Plastic Gauge can be purchased at Rock Auto. Go for the "Green" color as it meets the needs of rod and main bearing clearances. The plastic piece is cut to meet the width of the bearing, placed on cleaned surface dry, then install the cap or main cap dry without turning. Just use proper torque specs. Remove and do one at a time, but use the guide on the package to determine the gap and specs. Remember, that a film of oil supports the rotating mass. Too loose, a loss of oil will result in damage and low oil pressure.

I have GM eSI on CD ROM for stand-a-lone use but only goes to 2004. Now, the torque specs and re-use of bolts are shown, but should be the same as newer stuff. While on several of these forums, I loose track of what engine you would be working on and have a dozen projects myself. I can try to provide what you need depending on how far you want to go.
Re-sealing the engine with over 100k now, will put you behind the "8" ball by 100k if installed.
Myself, I ran my engine on a modified wood pallet with lengths of 1 1/2 pipe cut, bent, holes and bolted to engine W/lag screws and worked fine. I did this to clean the injectors and air plenum using my pressure pot & 10% ACDelco X66P to gas sold at GM dealers as Top Engine Cleaner.

With the exhaust and intake off, you can find and open valve and pass judgement on the seat condition are cleaning with X66P. (X66P has been produced in quart cans W/pop top, spray cans, Screw top metal but now plastic, so since 1972 has been sold)

I tested each injector for flow test using my injector control tool that pulses them like 20 times each. Watching the pressure drop in the SnapOn fuel gauge and note each one and was 0.4 PSI of each. Great...but noticed the oil pan flange getting wet. I put some "UV" dye in the oil, ran it while check every two minutes to find several places that I will not put up with.

It is easy to drop a 55 gallon drum of $20 into the build, but I will focus on leaks, compression, bearing clearances, rocker arm needle bearing up-grade and some key little issues. Int & Exhaust valve seats and but only the exhaust valve can alway be cleaned up, but what would do you expect a machine shop to sell you...everything.
I am happy to get the carbon off the intake as these have hardened seats. By the way, intake valve are not to be resurfaced but replaced only...by the book.

Timing chain and oil pressure. Well a gauge will tell you one, but it's not hard to do figure out T-Chain stretch.
With the CMP at the top rear removed, turn the crank clockwise at least a few inches. These have no key or marks for timing, but some adhesive timing tape placed at a given stop, back the crank very slowly with a buddy and flashlight watching the reluctor wheel of the CMP. When it starts to move...STOP! Take note of the degrees of movement. If less than 10*, good to go. If over 14* your chain has stretched and needs replaced. This is old school method to check T-Chain wear while watch distributors' rotor. It still works.

It easy to fix any problem, if you replace everything new between the bumpers!

[77c10bowtie]

Don't even check the bottom end, just popping rod caps and main caps loose is a no-no in my opinion. There are trucks and cars going anywhere from 10.0 to 8.0 on stock bottom ends.
The only thing people do and is suggested if the goal is big power is to put on arp rod bolts, in which I still wouldn't pop the cap off.

[72GreenMonster]

Originally Posted by LH Lead-Foot

Plastic Gauge can be purchased at Rock Auto. Go for the "Green" color as it meets the needs of rod and main bearing clearances. The plastic piece is cut to meet the width of the bearing, placed on cleaned surface dry, then install the cap or main cap dry without turning. Just use proper torque specs. Remove and do one at a time, but use the guide on the package to determine the gap and specs. Remember, that a film of oil supports the rotating mass. Too loose, a loss of oil will result in damage and low oil pressure.

I have GM eSI on CD ROM for stand-a-lone use but only goes to 2004. Now, the torque specs and re-use of bolts are shown, but should be the same as newer stuff. While on several of these forums, I loose track of what engine you would be working on and have a dozen projects myself. I can try to provide what you need depending on how far you want to go.
Re-sealing the engine with over 100k now, will put you behind the "8" ball by 100k if installed.
Myself, I ran my engine on a modified wood pallet with lengths of 1 1/2 pipe cut, bent, holes and bolted to engine W/lag screws and worked fine. I did this to clean the injectors and air plenum using my pressure pot & 10% ACDelco X66P to gas sold at GM dealers as Top Engine Cleaner.

With the exhaust and intake off, you can find and open valve and pass judgement on the seat condition are cleaning with X66P. (X66P has been produced in quart cans W/pop top, spray cans, Screw top metal but now plastic, so since 1972 has been sold)

I tested each injector for flow test using my injector control tool that pulses them like 20 times each. Watching the pressure drop in the SnapOn fuel gauge and note each one and was 0.4 PSI of each. Great...but noticed the oil pan flange getting wet. I put some "UV" dye in the oil, ran it while check every two minutes to find several places that I will not put up with.

It is easy to drop a 55 gallon drum of $20 into the build, but I will focus on leaks, compression, bearing clearances, rocker arm needle bearing up-grade and some key little issues. Int & Exhaust valve seats and but only the exhaust valve can alway be cleaned up, but what would do you expect a machine shop to sell you...everything.
I am happy to get the carbon off the intake as these have hardened seats. By the way, intake valve are not to be resurfaced but replaced only...by the book.

Timing chain and oil pressure. Well a gauge will tell you one, but it's not hard to do figure out T-Chain stretch.
With the CMP at the top rear removed, turn the crank clockwise at least a few inches. These have no key or marks for timing, but some adhesive timing tape placed at a given stop, back the crank very slowly with a buddy and flashlight watching the reluctor wheel of the CMP. When it starts to move...STOP! Take note of the degrees of movement. If less than 10*, good to go. If over 14* your chain has stretched and needs replaced. This is old school method to check T-Chain wear while watch distributors' rotor. It still works.

It easy to fix any problem, if you replace everything new between the bumpers!

Lead Foot,

Did get timing set and i took note of the heads and no resurfacing the valves rt? I was also tempted to decarbonize clean myself but i have new springs i needed i nstalling. Do i clean myself and buy a spring compressor?
I dont mind the elbow grease and the more i do feels good in the end.

[72GreenMonster]

Originally Posted by 77c10bowtie

Don't even check the bottom end, just popping rod caps and main caps loose is a no-no in my opinion. There are trucks and cars going anywhere from 10.0 to 8.0 on stock bottom ends.
The only thing people do and is suggested if the goal is big power is to put on arp rod bolts, in which I still wouldn't pop the cap off.

Hey 77,

I was skeptical of how tired she was so i did the platiguage and they all checked out at about 002. Seeing enough convinced me to button that thing up and save time and money. Ordered a cam retainer, cleaned her up and hope to get started sooner than later. I am now siding with the fact they are pretty solid bottom ends and feel better going forward. Not to short cut anything but this was the sentiment i was hoping to verify. I know there's more of you out there that went that route. Hell swap can have many variants.

Will i get 100k less than a redo, probably but not my DD so no harm no foul the experience will be enough to do it again if needbe!! Everyone wins!
Thanks