Ebay truck - potential buyers cautioned to do due diligence

[Z10]

Originally Posted by blue 72 gmc 4x4

So I can understand not removing the vin plate. But one question I have is why can you buy the exact rivets for a vin plate for a 55-59 truck?

I just rechecked some old information I had concerning rosette rivets and it appears that they were first used in 1965 on cars. I had read earlier that they started using them on trucks in 1967, but now can't find my notes on the trucks.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Z10

I just rechecked some old information I had concerning rosette rivets and it appears that they were first used in 1965 on cars.

This is correct (I didn't want to say anything earlier).

The Transition must have occurred during the '65 model year as my September of 1964 built '65 GTO has round rivets. Later cars from the same plant have rosettes.

[undertaker72]

in the old days you could buy them at the dealer , thru Chevrolet , but it was like guns, weedspray and dynamite , you had to be a body shop , and register the purchase and then the application , I worked at a body shop and in the older days when you did a cab swap as in a rollover you would then have to change the id tag , when replacint the doors , you would have to have gm parts order the pressure sensitive id decal , its even harder nowdays on the semi trucks also , the door casings hasa ll data info , and it goes thru registered dealer

[Hutch]

About 20 years ago I knew a guy that owned a body shop that worked on classic mustangs.
He did top notch work.
He also would remove VIN tags for a repaint and then re-rivit them on
Alot of shops did this at the time

I had my car being worked on and when I went to pick it up.
There were alot of cars with missing drivers doors
He stated that the Feds came in and took the drivers doors off of about 30 of his customers cars as evidence in a vin alteration case.

They could tell the difference between original and modified rivits

Lucky me mine was one of several that did not loose their drivers door with the vin tag
I don't know what came out of the case but he was out of business right after that

[DeadheadNM]

And here's yet another to do due diligence on: http://www.ebay.com/itm/251767178718
Listed as a "Very nice and rare factory short-bed fleetside C10 four-wheel-drive Chevrolet." but seller doesn't explain why it has a 2wd VIN: CE149Z8051122

(Posted on another thread: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=653860)

[DeadheadNM]

I almost expect to find one misrepresented 67-72 pickup on ebay whenever I look. It's mostly an issue on short bed and 4wd pickups and not confined to Ebay. Anyone purchasing a truck at auction should also be aware that auction companies do not guarantee the authenticity of the vehicle sold.

Case in point, the attached pics are from a recently advertised as a "Very Rare (1972) Big Block super Cheyenne LOADED:...". Note the 6-cy VIN and the replaced (rusty) rivets on the VIN tag. When I contacted the seller about the VIN issues he told me he didn't see a problem and neither did Mecum Auctions - asking price $20k.

[57taskforce]

55-57 at a minimum have the tag spot welded to the cab 58-59 may be riveted but i can't remember for sure.

[D.PASSMORE]

You know Pete (DeadHeadNM) - sometimes its just a group of folks that care about things like rivets, numbers, paint and/or original interior. Some folks like an older truck to drive and have fun (you know ). Those things don't matter, they have had their experience, time to turn them over, move on to the next fun thing - until they find there love interest. Well this is us, we like them authentic. So, if they just want the experience - go for it, but it will/could bite you in the butt later on down the line. As explain by some members in this thread, its not a fun ride when one has to put valuable time and resources into trying to crawl out of a bad deal because the PO (?) decided to redesign the vehicle. But, some folks are foolish and ignore the facts and just want to burn the tires off the rims...

I like mine authentic, at least I can always break even on a honest note!

[leddzepp]

It is illegal to sell or possess VIN rivets, for obvious reasons. Yet when they come up for sale here on the board people line up around the block to buy them. Here is just one example: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=442226. Six pages of sales before it was locked down by admin.

I wonder how many of those rivets actually ended up being used to affix a VIN tag to the cab it was originally removed from?

Even with the "correct" rivets in place you would have no idea if there had been a cab swap, and the seller can easily hide it.

[Vintage Windmills]

Originally Posted by leddzepp

It is illegal to sell or possess VIN rivets, for obvious reasons. Yet when they come up for sale here on the board people line up around the block to buy them. Here is just one example: http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=442226. Six pages of sales before it was locked down by admin.

I wonder how many of those rivets actually ended up being used to affix a VIN tag to the cab it was originally removed from?

Even with the "correct" rivets in place you would have no idea if there had been a cab swap, and the seller can easily hide it.

Good point. All the more reason to verify the spid, frame, and plate rivets all match. Thats more important to me than original never replaced rosette rivets holding a vin plate that doesnt match the frame. There are plenty of cab swaps with the rivets left in place.

[70LonghornCST]

Good point Scott (leddzepp), this was certainly a learning curve for me. On my 65 Plymouth Sport Fury, the vin is merely attached using stainless screws. So, I never thought there was a problem removing it to paint. I always hated the masked off look around that area. To one who does not know the legalities, serious trouble could follow. Thanks to other threads informing members of the legal issues behind this, many of our members now know. And with this said, I had my 69 Chevy Truck stolen after I had restored it with all new aftermarket parts. The thought of my vin being swapped out for another still makes me sick.

[CastIron]

Just out of curiosity, I did a quick search and really can't find anything official that says the rosette rivets are illegal. I did however find several places you could buy them.

[Z10]

Originally Posted by CastIron

Just out of curiosity, I did a quick search and really can't find anything official that says the rosette rivets are illegal. I did however find several places you could buy them.

People vs Steffens

Here's some court precedence.

http://leagle.com/decision/199115515...0v.%20STEFFENS

And another, paragraph (5)

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(wid...me=mcl-750-415


And another, also paragraph (5)
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publ...?Name=093-0456

Google: possession of rosette rivets legal? You'll find plenty of reading.


I think the good thing that has come from this thread, is that more members are now not ignorant of the law, will know what to look for, and will ask questions when they find these altered VIN plates.

How many of you have run out to your trucks and collector cars to inspect these rivets? lol.

[CastIron]

Good job on finding that information! My search came up mainly with people on forums saying they were illegal and rivets for sale. I did notice in the Illinois link they they had exceptions to the rules. Basically, if somebody was repairing the vehicle and reinstalling the vin plate it was acceptable to possess them.

None of my vehicles have ever had the vin plates removed. But looking at the rivets on my various vehicles, it does appear that anybody with a dremel tool and a little patience could make their own rivets.
I wonder if this replacing the spid is illegal anywhere?

[57taskforce]

The spid isn't a legally recognized vin. So you can swap glove box doors as much as you want and there's no issue.

[Z10]

Here's the long version from the NHSTA:

[70LonghornCST]

Nice resource , Z10!