Dropmember in a 69 C10

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by onehot69stepside

is that a typical ford rack and pinion (24" inner balljoint centers) or is it a modified one for extended travel, or does the drop-member require the use of impala spindles? what im getting at is how the turning radius is with that rack. I'm building a full chassis front to back on a table and I think I've got it figured out how to build my ifs from scratch using a rack with the same amount of bumpsteer as stock but I have to figure a way to get my turning radius tighter.

Suspension geometry can be a complicated thing! When building a custom chassis or one-off piece things can become less complicated than when building a production piece like the dropmember. Sounds wierd, but true. Production pieces have to be cost effective... a custom rack would change that real quick. In all suspension and steering design/geometry there has to be certain trade-offs that take place. The stock rack does take away slightly from the turning radius, its turning radius is still average or slightly above, but I would be lying if I said it was the same or better. To increase the steering radius I could have had a custom rack produced or decided to use different spindles with a shorter steering arm, (this might be what you need to do for your custom application) , but it would have defeated the purpose of building this crossmember. My original objective was to build a kit that was a quality piece, both in design and manufacturing, and most importantly cost effective for the consumer. It is an exceptional design, the quality of the piece is incredible, the suspension geometry is an improvement from stock, all obstacles that are inherent with putting these trucks on the ground have been addressed, and the price is reasonable. Sorry for soapboxing and giving you more info than you probably wanted or needed, but I hope I was able to help answer your questions.

[onehot69stepside]

oh thank you for soapboxing! I enjoy people rattling off because I do it too. You completely answered my questions. And I totally understand what you are getting at with a one off peice being not as complicated. I really like the dropmember and if i had a stock frame still, I'd probably save up for one. I think my favorite part of the dropmember is the way the lower c-arms are sandwiched inside of the crossmemeber. Its a hell of a lot stronger than the factory u-bolts! I was thinking of getting impala spindles but I already have 2-inch drops so i think ill stick with what I got and the next time i have 800 bucks laying around ill have a rack modified to have more travel. Theres a company out there that does this but I forget the name of them. A hot rod shop here in town told me the name so i think ill ask them again.

[PBFAB.COM]

One company that I know of (and deal with) that will build a custom rack or modify one to your specs is Maval Manufacturing... AKA Unisteer. I highly recommend them!

[onehot69stepside]

yeah! thats what it is. Maval. I actually googled Marvel. lol. And the only reason why I remembered that much was because I wrote it down in a phonebook around here and i see it all the time in it.

[PBFAB.COM]

Well, this truck was originally going to have Shockwaves installed on the Dropmember instead of bags... plans changed. The Shockwaves weren't going to fit quite like we had intended, so they went back on the shelf, and the traditional bag and shock combo will be used. Here's some pics of the completed rack mount and the bag mounts starting to take shape. The arms in the pics are DJM drop arms for coil springs, the owner of the truck already had the arms and it was going to cost him less to modify the arms than purchase some from Air Ride. The dropmember is designed to be used with the Strong Arms from Air Ride Tech., but any tubular arms and even stock arms will work... there may need to be a little modifying having to take place on the lower arm though.

[Rokcrln]

Looks good! I have a few questions. What comes with the kit for $1200? Do you get the rack Notches and bag mounts? From the front bumper being on the ground how much lift will a standard bag give? What else do you need to get in order to install this kit on a stock truck? I know these are basic questions but they were not covered completly in the posts. Now one question for my own knowledge how much of a rear notch (no need to address floor and arm mods) would it take to get the rockers level with the full drop of the front?
By th eway sweet PB logo. I am working on an LFD logo for my roll cages and tube chassie's I just have not decided on a method yet.
Thanks for your time.

Kevin
LFD Inc.

[PBFAB.COM]

The $1200 bucks gets the whole crossmember, upper control arm plates/bag mounts, inner frame brace, rack and pinion mounts (rack is additional), outer tie rod ends and tie-rod adapters (outer tie-rod ends are 3/4-16 LH heims with a 5/8 hole. The spindle gets drilled out with a 5/8 bit, mis-alignment spacers are included. The tie-rod adapter is currently tubing with a 3/4 LH bung on one end and a 9/16 on the rack side), shock mounts, rack notch, and grade 8 hardware are also included. Things that are left on the "to buy list"... rack and pinion, steering linkage and borgeson joints (the joint on the column end needs to be a double u-joint), bags, and shocks. The stock trans crossmember will need to be modified or replaced. The motor also moves up a little and forward a little to give oil pan to ground clearance and harmonic balancer to rack clearance. The driveshaft and exhaust will have to be modofied to compensate for this. As far as lift... I will measure on Monday. (The panel truck lifts up to where there is almost daylight between the fender lip and the top of the tire). Same answer for the rear notch, oh, what tire diameter do you want me to measure by?
Thanks for the compliment on the PB logo.

[Rokcrln]

For the tire size the red blazer on page one would be a good choise. Sounds like your kit is very well equiped. For oil pan clearance does it matter if it is a new SL1 or a stock carb model? With sliding the engine forward how would it be for a Big block (not common any more but thought I would ask)?

Kevin
LFD Inc.

[CryingJoker]

yeh thanx for askin bout big block rokcrln i was about to, guess i'll be one of those rarities....

[Rokcrln]

Originally Posted by CryingJoker

yeh thanx for askin bout big block rokcrln i was about to, guess i'll be one of those rarities....

No problem! I have been looking around for different front set up and this may just be it. I thought about MustangII which is a good desigh but our trucks are heavy and the basic MustangII set up has smaller spindles and brakes unless you want to spend major $ to up grade everything. Then I am also checking into Corvett suspention and I do like it but also it is alot of money just for doner parts + a install kit + labor from a qualified shop to install it for most guys and once it is in you are stuck for life. This Dropmember uses our stock parts (or improved after market parts just for our trucks) and has been narrowed just a bit for tire clearance. If you want to run it as is you can and then up grade later as $ allows to tubular arms, disk brakes or biger disk brakes and if for some reason you wanted to return to stock you would be able to with out way to much work. The reason I say this is because I am starting to design my 70 2wd blazer and can not decide if I want to go full custom on it or do a real clean stock look but dump it to the ground. My only concern is they are so rare for a factory 2wd I really do not want to much that would make it non returnable to stock if some one every wanted to but at the same time I can not drive a stock vehical So I am thinking this would be the best of both worlds. Then in my 71 SWB I have already spent the money for bags, disk's, big sway bars, drop spindles and so on but it is not as low as I want to go and I still have the tire clealance issue that I think this kit would fix.

So if anyone up in my area wants one of these installed I will do a great install price so I can check it out before buying a few for my own toys

Kevin
LFD Inc.

[Frizzle Fry]

If I ever do a "standard build" (i.e. use the truck frame) I'll go with one of these. In fact, when the '61 is done I should get one for the Burb... So they will work with big blocks no problem?

[Rokcrln]

Originally Posted by Frizzle Fry

So they will work with big blocks no problem?

We do not know yet!

Kevin
LFD Inc.

[PBFAB.COM]

OK- What's a big block? and what's a carborator? Just kidding! (I thought big blocks and carborators were forgotten when gas prices reached $3.00 a gallon ) I have not set this up with a big block. It can be done I am sure, but how much work it is I do not yet know. The obvious points of concern with running a big block with the Dropmember would be the firewall clearance and the steering shaft to header clearance. Small blocks with carbs will work just fine (the 63 panel is running that combo). The LS1 is actually a little bit larger than the traditional small block, and fits a lot tighter (If you want to run an LS1 you will need the f-body oil pan). The 350 in the panel had to come forward 2" and up 2" and has plenty of oil pan clearance and distributor to firewall clearance. I will be digging one of my own trucks (a 69) out of the back lot and be doing an install with a small block and turbo 350 trans so I can have some good pics for installation instructions (I am assuming this would be the most common combination to be run). I will be happy to post up more pics for all to see. I want to make sure everybody knows exactly what to expect when they purchase one of my Dropmembers. Keep the questions coming, and feel free to make suggestions or offer constructive criticism. The better I make this thing, the more people will buy it!

[SCOTI]

Are the outer tie-rod ends adjustable studs w/heims to correct for bumpsteer? How well do heims hold up to daily abuse?

Many states up north apparently frown upon heims used in suspensions. I just learned this recently while researching info about the 'B' spindle swap on GM cars. Guys were using parts similar to Baer Brakes 'bumpsteer eliminator' kits (heim ends) & having inspection issues.

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Are the outer tie-rod ends adjustable studs w/heims to correct for bumpsteer? How well do heims hold up to daily abuse?

Many states up north apparently frown upon heims used in suspensions. I just learned this recently while researching info about the 'B' spindle swap on GM cars. Guys were using parts similar to Baer Brakes 'bumpsteer eliminator' kits (heim ends) & having inspection issues.

The outer tie-rod is a heavy duty 3/4 inch heim with a 5/8" hole (overkill). It uses a grade 8 5/8 bolt to go through the spindle, and misalignment spacers (maximize travel without binding, and supplied with kit). The bumpsteer was minimized in the design with the pieces supplied in the kit.
I have not heard of any inspection issues due to spherical bearings (heims) being used in suspension systems. I wouldn't know why it would be an issue. As far as durabilty and strength is concerned, spherical bearings (heims and uni-balls) are the first choice of many performance suspension systems. I have been debating having a tie-rod adapter sleeve made that allows the use of a stock outer tie-rod end, the only draw-back to this is the rack threads and the stock tie-rod threads will need to be trimmed for installation... Which sounds more appealing?

[Rokcrln]

Originally Posted by porterbuilt

The outer tie-rod is a heavy duty 3/4 inch heim with a 5/8" hole (overkill). It uses a grade 8 5/8 bolt to go through the spindle, and misalignment spacers (maximize travel without binding, and supplied with kit). The bumpsteer was minimized in the design with the pieces supplied in the kit.
I have not heard of any inspection issues due to spherical bearings (heims) being used in suspension systems. I wouldn't know why it would be an issue. As far as durabilty and strength is concerned, spherical bearings (heims and uni-balls) are the first choice of many performance suspension systems. I have been debating having a tie-rod adapter sleeve made that allows the use of a stock outer tie-rod end, the only draw-back to this is the rack threads and the stock tie-rod threads will need to be trimmed for installation... Which sounds more appealing?

I would recomend the option of both. He is right some states do frown apon hiems but they are thesame states that frown apon modified steering in any form So ether way it is an issue. But offer it at $ for theheim kit and $ for stock kit?

Kevin
LFD Inc.

[PBFAB.COM]

I have had a few questions about the upper control arm/bag mount. Here's a good pic of what the final mount looks like. It is all one piece and comes with the kit.
Rockrln- I seemed to have misplaced my tape measure... (actually I forgot to measure the lift and size of notch you will need) I will try again tomorrow

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by Rokcrln

I would recomend the option of both.

Good idea. I think many would prefer the 'sealed' stock style tie-rod vs. a typically 'squeaky' heim style end.
Does the dropmember actually use the existing frame holes for locating?

[PBFAB.COM]

The "squeaky" heims are an option As for the mounting holes, the dropmember bolts into the stock crossmember mounting holes. There is one additional hole that needs to be drilled on each side, and the mounting holes in the bottom of the framerails will need to be drilled out to 1/2".

[onehot69stepside]

i was curious where i could get those spacers to prevent the heim joints from binding. The local speed shop here has them but not for 3/4" holes. I used the 3140 steel ,teflon lined heims joints on mine with 3/4" stud and hole and i just made some spacers out of some tubing stock and grinded them down but i need some machined ones for when i build my chassis.

[onehot69stepside]

ok i know i'm probably trying to pick your brain a little too much but how did you get the front to be narrowed 4 inches over all. I posted some info in Valleycustoms post on his custom chassis and my ideas on my front suspension geometry. If you feel like leaking any info, enlighten me on my plans of using a rack n pinion and how i plan to keep the factory geometry. I dont mind how they drive in stock form. Anything is better than my butt load of bumpsteer I have now.

[PBFAB.COM]

I sell the rod end spacers (misalignment spacers) for the heims. PM me for more info on the spacers and your suspension geometry questions. As for the dropmember being narrowed, it's not quite four inches. The geometry was designed utilizing stock spindles and arms and a mustangII rack. In order to get the bumpsteer where I wanted, the lower control arm pivot points needed to move inboard, which was fine by me. When these trucks are slammed they need to be narrowed up a bit for additional tire to fender/hood clearances.(Less than .1 degrees of bumpsteer per inch of travel is considered "acceptable" in the world of race car suspension design. Their end goal is to have as little bumpsteer as possible so I too accept their standard as .1 degree per inch of travel as acceptable) The dropmember has much less than .1 degree of bumpsteer per inch of bump (compression), and just under .1 degrees of bumpsteer per inch of droop (extension). For those who have no idea what I am talking about, bumpsteer is an issue common to steering and suspension changes. The location of all the suspension pivot points work together to create the suspension geometry. If not located properly, adverse steering and suspension movements take effect, making the vehicle steer and handle poorly, and often dangerously. Bumpsteer is a term used for the steering of the vehicle. It is apparent when steering linkage pivot points are not located in harmony with the control arm pivot points and as the vehicle's suspension goes through its travel, the steering wants to toe in or out. This condition can cause some strange and sometimes dangerous results.

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Good idea. I think many would prefer the 'sealed' stock style tie-rod vs. a typically 'squeaky' heim style end.
Does the dropmember actually use the existing frame holes for locating?

It sounded like a good idea to me too! But, due to the variety of tie-rod ends (length, threaded length, thread pitch, thread size...) It doesn't look like it's something I will be offering. The stock tie-rod ends would need to be trimmed too much, and the rack would also need to be trimmed too much (the stock tie-rod ends are not too spendy, but try getting a warranty on a rack that has been cut up). Looks like heims it is... or you can upgrade to the "squeaky" ones!

[PBFAB.COM]

Rokcrln-

Finally found my tape measure... The front gets just under 8" of travel. I still have not had time to measure how big of a notch you will need in the rear, I will have time on Friday to take those measurements.

[Rokcrln]

porterbuilt~ Thanks for checking for me. I am not in a big hurry just yet but as I drive to and from work I am always thinking about ideas. With my 70 2wd blazer I want to keep the rear notch as small as I can but still drop it to the ground. I am thinking I might be able to go with a smaller notch if I go with a C4 set up of sorts since the third member would be stationary and just the arms need to travel. I need to crawl under one and check it out some more. If I go this way then it would be a C4 up front as well but I am still thinking about the dropmember for my 71 swb. Only problem is I would need to chop apart my custom Sanderson hot coated headers to fit the steering shaft but I am thinking it would still be worth it.

Kevin
LFD Inc.