is it a muncie or saginaw

[Roland]

Betcha it's a 351 Muncie. It should have a syncronized first gear. Look at the spacing of the shift fork shafts and the extra cast bosses on the cover plate.

[Green Machine]

On that Mr. Gasket link there is a picture 341 chevy transmission. That is likely the trans that Brad had, it is not a muncie or a saginaw, it is a chevy trans. They are very weak, weird internals, and non sysnchro low and the were used thru 67. 68 and up should have either muncie or saginaw unless swapped out sometime.

[Brad]

Green Machine, except for that long tailshaft housing mine looked similar to that. But that tailshaft housing is confusing me if that's what I had because mine was much shorter than that. That drawing could be misleading and out of perspective. My 'Muncie' definately had 4 side bolt covers, was original to the truck and had a non-syncro 1st gear. I hope we can get this all straightened out once and for all because I just sold this and I'd like to inform the guy if I mis-stated what I had.

This is a weird thread- it used to be so cut & dried figuring out what was what on here, lol. Now we're all second guessing ourselves, lol.

[Green Machine]

10-4 on that. Yep that pic had a weird long tailshaft. I still would bet money yours was the little light duty type. Used from about 55-67 iirc. Long distance troubleshooting can be very tough sometimes. But I reserve the right to be wrong too

[crazyred]

Hey Guys

Does anyone know where i can get a rebuild kit for the muncie 3 speed???
I been looking all over the E-net and cant find anything

Shifty ... right now it looks like i might be heading out your way if i cant find a kit

Thank Guys ....you have all been a big help!!!

[shifty]

Here, guys....here are some pictures from when it first came out AND very, very close up shots of the casting numbers and crap like that. If this isn't enough to ID the tranny, I don't know what is.

NOTE: The first picture linked up here is LARGE. (~400k in size), so dialup users beware.

http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20000.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20001.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20002.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20003.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20004.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20005.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20006.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20007.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20008.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20009.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20010.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20011.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20012.jpg
http://satellitehead.com/uploads/3sp...anny%20013.jpg

Just for S&G, here are a couple images for people to look at w/o clicking on links

[shifty]

Oh - those numbers on the side of it....

On the tailshaft: 3911984 GM 5
On the non-bolted plate side: GM 2 E271 8987948 (B987948? 3987948?)
On bolted plate side: GM2 3952648 E271
Tag on bolted plate side: 3968081QY (396808IQY?)

And one last tidbit of info: This SOB was wound the hell out in 3rd gear when hooked up to my 3-on-tree. I could only do 65 with it running 5k RPM at 65mph with my 3.73 gears. I hope this helps?

All the numbers I am looking up online keep saying this is a Muncie 4spd, but ... I don't believe it.

Would the shift linkage linkage have prevented me from hitting the 4th speed?

[Brad]

Jason, it doesn't makes sense that you were wound out in 3rd gear with a 3.73 rearend UNLESS this was a 4 speed. On a 3 speed the 3rd gear is 1.00:1 and you'd only be doing around 3000rpm at 65 with a 3.73 rearend.

[shifty]

I should clarify It "felt" like I was wound out around 5k RPM. I definitely could not go faster than 65 in the truck or it sounded like it would blow up (3spd+that tranny).

I looked at all the Muncie 3spds, my side cover plate doesn't look like any of them. I actually can't find a dang cover plate that looks anything like mine and the one above - the muncie and saginaw that look alike have one bolt in a high middle position - like the one with the side cover off that you posted a pic of above. however, neither of these two trannies have that.

i'd love to know what that tag means on the side of mine. i feel like that is some RPO code or some other indicator to tell what the heck it is.

[RSRXION]

With respect to your trans... that is definitely Muncie as many have stated previously. The fastest way to ID them is the 2 top bolts for Muncie and 1 bolt top center for a Saginaw. Is the Muncie tougher ? Many people think so but they don't bring much when compared to the Saginaws.

I am an auctioneer as well as a fire fighter and we just completed our first racing auction last weekend. We'll be doing several of them throughout the Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas region in the coming months. We sold 3 speed Saginaws at auction for as much as 100.00. The Muncies brought a max of 50.00. The Saginaws are very popular iin the dirt track world and finding those without broken "ears" is what makes them so valuable. There are some racing trans companies out there who will pay 100.00 flat for any Saginaw with ears intact without regard to the inner workings. Hope this helps you decide not to throw those old " bad " transmissions away. Dean

[shifty]

What is an "ear"?

And, by all means, which Muncie is this? Like, what is the model # on it? How many speeds is it? Any other info you can provide?

[Brad]

The 'ear' is the part that bolts up to the bell housing.

[shifty]

Wow, trying to get a definitive answer (model # of pictured trannies above) is like trying to find out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop.

I can't find a model number and the side plate doesn't match the bolt pattern of any Muncie I have ever found anywhere on the internet.

[shifty]

The bolt pattern is roughly the same, but the drain plug and the side cover is a diff't shape than what is pictured in the Mr Gasket PDF....linked in a post above.

[mhicks]

S=Saginaw, M=Muncie
SM, is this not Sginaw/Muncie?

[crazyred]

Hey shifty somewhere around the side cover you should find some numbers stamped into the machined surface of the case. The pic shows you where i found mine.



now that stamp should tell what exactly you have once take a look at this web page---> http://www.novaresource.org/trans.htm

I think that should help you out

[jimfulco]

The bigger all-synchro Muncie 3-speed was the heavy-duty option in cars when the Saginaw was standard equipment. My sister's '69 Camaro SS came with the Muncie, and it was surely heavy, especially resting on your belly after her clutch went SPROINGGG.

[motocrosschump]

Muncie 3 speeds was an "Heavy Duty" option for passenger cars.

[Fenny]

65-68 was a Borg Warner HD 3 speed (T16) and 69-72 was a Muncie HD 3 speed (MC1). The diagram here is typical for the T16 shows the correct tail section for Shifty. But according to the cast numbers on the side cover Shifty's transmission is a 71-72 Muncie and Crazyred's is a 69-70 Muncie

http://1964-77chevelleparts.com/pdf/...ansmission.pdf

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Fenny

65-68 was a Borg Warner HD 3 speed (T16) and 69-72 was a Muncie HD 3 speed (MC1). The diagram here is typical for the T16 shows the correct tail section for Shifty. But according to the cast numbers on the side cover Shifty's transmission is a 71-72 Muncie and Crazyred's is a 69-70 Muncie
http://1964-77chevelleparts.com/pdf/...ansmission.pdf

That link is great!
But I'm still a little confused as to what I had in my '67. It had 4 side cover bolt holes I think, with a number of M7M15. The 3 speed listed above has 7. The 3 speed Saginaw from 55-65 looks similar but it appears to have at least 5. So personally, I'm still at square one trying to figure out what the heck my truck came with from the factory. I wish I still had a picture and I just finally sold it about a month ago now.
I'm so happy with my new T-5!

[shifty]

Originally Posted by Brad

That link is great!
But I'm still a little confused as to what I had in my '67. It had 4 side cover bolt holes I think, with a number of M7M15.

Look at the PDF I just posted...look like any at the end of that? The Chevy 341, 342 and 344 looks like they have a 4 bolt cover

[Brad]

Originally Posted by shifty

Look at the PDF I just posted...look like any at the end of that? The Chevy 341, 342 and 344 looks like they have a 4 bolt cover

The problem is that those all have a long tailshaft housing. The trans I had looked very much like a Saginaw 3 speed trans-same size shape and all, but had 4 bolts on the side cover.

Originally Posted by crazy longhorn

The old 4 bolt side cover was a Muncie (non syncro 1 st gear). that trans showed up in many different trucks/cars from about the mid 50's, & had some different lenghts on the tailshafts. Along about 66, the cars pretty much went to the saginaw 3 spd,but trucks still used the old Muncie for a few yrs. To the best of my recollection (thats scary!), the lite duty 6 cyl trucks 67-68 had the old 4 bolt muncie, whereas the v8 sb trucks had the saginaw. 69 made the saginaw standard equip in the lite trucks,(6 or V8 all the same). The heavier 3 spd Muncie(full syncrow), & the borg Warner were not really common in our trucks, but IIRC, were more of a BB v8 deal. L

That's what I've always heard, both here and elsewhere but so far I haven't found any documentation in books or online to be able to prove this. Then I see this post that has everything but mine in it even though many resemble it VERY closely. I'd just like to have definative proof with pics, mostly just to help someone else out down the road and for my own knowledge base.

[70_GTO_JUDGE]

to further complicate things here....it is a dearborn muncie(rat rod) you have............GM was ripping the saginaws out left and right, so they switched to the dearborn(ford) 3 speed.

My 70 gto judge is 1 of 144 judges not upgraded to the 4 speed.


it is a rare tranny, no one knows what it is.....

[crazy longhorn]

Originally Posted by Brad

That link is great!
But I'm still a little confused as to what I had in my '67. It had 4 side cover bolt holes I think, with a number of M7M15. The 3 speed listed above has 7. The 3 speed Saginaw from 55-65 looks similar but it appears to have at least 5. So personally, I'm still at square one trying to figure out what the heck my truck came with from the factory. I wish I still had a picture and I just finally sold it about a month ago now.
I'm so happy with my new T-5!

The old 4 bolt side cover was a Muncie (non syncro 1 st gear). that trans showed up in many different trucks/cars from about the mid 50's, & had some different lenghts on the tailshafts. Along about 66, the cars pretty much went to the saginaw 3 spd,but trucks still used the old Muncie for a few yrs. To the best of my recollection (thats scary!), the lite duty 6 cyl trucks 67-68 had the old 4 bolt muncie, whereas the v8 sb trucks had the saginaw. 69 made the saginaw standard equip in the lite trucks,(6 or V8 all the same). The heavier 3 spd Muncie(full syncrow), & the borg Warner were not really common in our trucks, but IIRC, were more of a BB v8 deal. L

[shifty]

Interesting. The Mr Gasket PDF shows the T16 with a 9-bolt side cover. I have had two different people tell me that it was probably a Muncie MC1 or M13 at this point (@ another forum), but ... that's the first definitive proof I've seen that it could be anything else.

Thanks for the link, Fenny.

It's possible this is a T16 made in '68 and could have come with the truck, I guess. I have tried time and time again to find anyone with extensive pictures of various trannies on the web, and nobody I've found does. Nobody pays attention to truck trannies, only the SS cars and whatnot.