camaro suspension upgrade

[JadXtreme]

Alot of the transmissions that I'm finding are from a 4wd truck. Does it really matter if its a 4 or 2wd?

I haven't gotten my donor camaro yet, just still trying to line everything up so that when I get everything, I can get working on it. Is there a particular model camaro that is best for the sub frame swap or does it matter so long as its a 2nd gen? Also, will I be able to use the rear end out of the camaro as well? Getting a rear end from the camaro, does it pretty much gaurantee that it'll be a posi rear?

Would boxing the frame in be a good idea for this particular build since I'm going with a 455 BB and 5 speed or does it matter? I haven't seen any pics where someone fully boxed the frame that I know of.

I haven't never did any kind of restoration before so I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row.

[raycow]

Alot of the transmissions that I'm finding are from a 4wd truck. Does it really matter if its a 4 or 2wd?

Yes, if the 4WD transmission was designed to be bolted to the transfer case. First, you need to see if it has a rear seal. If it does, you will have to find a way of connecting a driveshaft to the transmission's output shaft. Also, a 4WD transmission may not have a speedo drive because the drive will normally come off the transfer case. You can of course swap a 2WD output shaft and rear bearing retainer, but this could be expen$ive unless you can find used parts.

I haven't gotten my donor camaro yet, just still trying to line everything up so that when I get everything, I can get working on it. Is there a particular model camaro that is best for the sub frame swap or does it matter so long as its a 2nd gen?

I think they are all pretty much alike. In a perfect world you would find a 403 Firebird and the crossmember would still have the mounts you need for your Olds engine (Just joking here). Don't forget that a 75-79 Nova has basically the same front end as a Camaro and it will probably cost less.

Also, will I be able to use the rear end out of the camaro as well? Getting a rear end from the camaro, does it pretty much gaurantee that it'll be a posi rear?

Yes, the Camaro rear will work if you relocate the spring pads. However, I'm thinking it may be a bit wider than the stock truck rear, in case that could cause a problem with the wheel/tire combo you plan to use. Don't count on the rear having posi unless it came out of a high-performance model (Z-28, etc.). It is easy enough to spot a posi before you lay down your money. Just get one wheel off the ground and try to turn it by hand (transmission in neutral and parking brake off). If the wheel will turn easily without the other wheel trying to turn, you have an open rear. If the wheel is difficult or impossible to turn, you have posi.

Would boxing the frame in be a good idea for this particular build since I'm going with a 455 BB and 5 speed or does it matter?

Can't help you on that one. I have never had anywhere near that much power in one of these trucks.

Ray

[bobinbc]

If it was me in your shoes I'd be tempted to get the body all done on the '55. Then toss the body off that Tacoma of yours, shorten the frame about 6" or so and throw the body on that. I wouldn't tear the Toyota apart until I had the body ready though, just in case.
Best of both worlds, tough Toyota engineering, classic Chevy styling

Then again maybe not. I just checked out your Toy, still looks nice. In this part of the world, the metal worms would've had it half eaten by now...

[JadXtreme]

Here are a few that I found on my local craigslist ads. Which do you think would have the most potential?

76 Trans Am
http://fayetteville.craigslist.org/cto/1805262711.html

75 Nova SS
http://fayetteville.craigslist.org/cto/1778989722.html

[Indian113]

If it was me I'd go with the Trans Am,one reason the sway bar is heavier and also the steering box is quicker and 400 motor and cross member. But thats your call

[JadXtreme]

The guy says that he'll take $400 for the Trans Am. I'm gonna go and look at it tomorrow if possible.

[bobinbc]

Trans -Am.

You may be able to get some or all of your money back by selling things like the shaker scoop if it's all there, spoilers and fender flares, t-tops etc.

[HiRMKin]

What I did was bought a 80 Camaro rs for $400.00. Striped out any thing that I thought would be useful, like brake booster, tranny,wiper motor,rear end, subframe and many more things.Then went to pick n pull and bought wiper motor from a blazer, hydroboost master brake cylinder,and many more parts then used the Camaro parts to get the core charge back. I also sold what was left of the rusted out Camaro for $200.00. So far it's worked out pretty well for me.

[Indian113]

JadXtreme, did you get a chance to buy the Trans Am?

[JadXtreme]

Not yet but I'm still in contact with the seller. Just trying to make sure I got the funds in order.

[Indian113]

Good Plan

[JadXtreme]

Well, the Trans Am deal fell through. If everything works out right, I'm going tomorrow in between church to get a mid 70s Camaro for $300. The Camaro is in pretty decent shape, has no engine, not sure about the tranny, only 5 minutes from here.

[JadXtreme]

I've been looking up a NV4500 tranny, but have had little luck finding a 5 speed out of a 2wd dodge. On wikipedia, it says that only the 5.9s have the nv4500, the 5.2s have the nv3500. Is there no way that a 5 speed out of a 2wd chevy would work?

I've found a 5 speed tranny that's out of a 89 305 trans am, would that not work?

[raycow]

Originally Posted by JadXtreme

I've been looking up a NV4500 tranny, but have had little luck finding a 5 speed out of a 2wd dodge. On wikipedia, it says that only the 5.9s have the nv4500, the 5.2s have the nv3500. Is there no way that a 5 speed out of a 2wd chevy would work?

I've found a 5 speed tranny that's out of a 89 305 trans am, would that not work?

Yes, you can use a Chevy NV4500. BUT it will not bolt to your stock bellhousing. If you use the factory NV4500 bellhousing you must convert to hydraulic clutch linkage. If you want to stay with mechanical linkage you must use one of two aftermarket bellhousings (depending on the year of the transmission)
http://advanceadapters.com/product/2226/712577.html
http://advanceadapters.com/product/2225/712576.html

The downside with any of these is that you lose your factory bellhousing mounts and you must convert to a block mounted starter. With the Dodge NV4500 you get to keep your stock bellhousing, starter, mounts, linkage, etc.

The Firebird transmission is a T-5 and will bolt to your stock bellhousing. However, the shifter is so far back that it will not clear a bench seat. To use it with a bench seat you must replace the tailhousing and shifter with parts from an S-10 and re-locate the speedo drive gear on the output shaft.

Ray

[JadXtreme]

What if I got a tranny out of a 4.3 s-10? Would that work out better? Would the T5 hold up to the 455? I don't plan to do much of anything to it: long tubes initially, and maybe carb/intake down the road.

[raycow]

Originally Posted by JadXtreme

What if I got a tranny out of a 4.3 s-10? Would that work out better? Would the T5 hold up to the 455? I don't plan to do much of anything to it: long tubes initially, and maybe carb/intake down the road.

I could not recommend a T-5 for use behind a 455 with a clear conscience unless you promised to drive it like your grandmother. A lot of junior tire burners regularly blow them up in their 305 Camaros and 302 Mustangs.

The 4.3 transmission is an NV3500, also used in the 1/2 ton trucks with engines up to (I think) a 350. It would crertainly be an improverment over the T-5. The main challenge for you is that it has an integral bellhousing with a Chevy bolt pattern. You might be able to bolt it to your Olds with one of those adapter plates normally used for automatic transmissions, but I have never heard of anyone actually doing this. If you get past the bellhousing issue, you will still have to deal with the hydraulic clutch linkage and the electric speedo drive.

Ray

[JadXtreme]

Ok... Well I guess I got my work cut out for me if I wanna make the 5 speed manual a reality. I'll just address that when I get to it I guess.

However, I've found me a 2nd gen Camaro for $300. Once I get that Camaro, then I'll get a decent welder, then I'll really start work on the truck.

I really appreciate all the advice and information. You guys have a great wealth of knowledge that I will likely be tapping into from time to time during my build. Hopefully, within a couple of years, I'll have the truck where I can start to drive it some.

[robnolimit]

The 2nd gen. - '70-'81 camaro/firebird IFS is the one to use. Most swaps in the pictures are "overlap" grafts, and may tend to set the trucks too low, or the motors too high in the engine bay. Splice grafts tend to be a better finish, and if you need it slammed, use dropped spindles. OK, we do have a DVD, and yes, the master was from video. I will agree with the guy who said that the pict was a bit low quality. I made the videos in the 80's. 600dpi was hi-def back then. The key is that the information on how to do it is there and is correct. We show you how to put the front horns back on for the bumper and core support mounts. - measure twice, or three times, cut on the long side, and grind it to fit perfect.

[Houston54]

I am finishing up a camaro subframe on my 58 and used the No Limit video as the basis. While it does address most of the issues related to this modification it does gloss over some of the more critical areas. When I sent a query to No Limit the answers I got back fell short of my expectations.

Here is the guts of my email to them asking for some information on May 05:

I hope you can assist me on these two questions regarding the f-body sub-frame installation into a 58 Chevy ½ ton chassis.

I have installed the sub-frame per the video I purchased from you some years back. The axle centerline determination is set at 22 inches from the cross brace to the front of the shock mounting hole. In the video it was not clear if the centerline dimension took into consideration that the original axle centerline actually moves forward under load. My concern is how well the wheel/tire will be centered in the fender using the dimensions from the video. Can you confirm the wheel/tire will be centered or should I adjust the dimensions? Has this video been updated or is the VHS version I have the same as the current CD version?

My second question regards new front springs. I plan to use a 5.3L 2006 engine in this project. The part number I have been able to identify for the Z28 springs (1978 vintage) is Moog 8002. These have a spring rate of 414 lbs/in. Other information I have found specifies a spring rate of 500 lbs or more for improved handling. What does No Limit recommend in this regard? The rear suspension is a C4 (1989) corvette IRS assembly. I am currently installing this unit and as such have not been able to set or determine the ride height as yet. I admit to not being totally knowledgeable regarding spring free height, load height, load weight and spring rate parameters but I do know I want a 3—5 degree rack on the stance. Probably too much information or not enough but I would like to know how No Limit has set up other trucks in the past.

Here is the reply I received:
For the 1st question you will need to set the cab and bolt the fender on and then stare at it.
2nd question yes those springs will work. You can trim the springs if needed.

Customer Service Tech
No Limit Engineering

Needless to say this did not provide concise answers and left me right where I was before I sent the email. I had been hopeful that someone who goes to the effort to sell a video of the process would be able to provide more detailed responses on these issues.

After sitting and "Staring at it" for awhile I decided trying to glean more information from No Limit would be a waste. The correct answers to my questions are as follows:

1. Using the dimensions provided in the video the wheel will be centered in wheel opening pretty close to center. Evidently they did take the movement of the stock spring into consideration. Although the advice given is what someone doing such a modification would normally do, and what I wound up doing anyway, I would think it possible for No Limit to provide a more useful response.

2. The 8002 spring with the 414 lbs spring rate is much too stiff for this application. I installed the springs and could not be any deflection of the springs even after putting a pontiac 400 core engine on the subframe. My current plan is to use the 576 spring. As my subframe came with the 1.25" dia sway bar this should provide the firm ride I am looking for without being overly stiff.

The suggestion that the springs can be trimmed raised red flags for me. Why would you want to install springs and then have to pull them back out to trim them? Why not share the information that would let people identify the correct spring? Cutting springs or worse, heating them, to achieve a desired stance is shade tree and not a recommended practice in my garage.

So the next time I come to a point in my project where I need advice from an expert I will sit and stare at the problem first.

No Limit dropped the ball on this for me.

[robnolimit]

Nice picts, and a nice looking graft. So, we DID give you ALL the info to do a PROFESSIONAL swap and it only cost you 29.95 for the video. I looked it up. By following the video, the front tire is dead center, and yes, we DID take into acount the movement of the stock spring and the shape of the wheel opening. SO, by simply following the dirctions, you win. As to th springs, DON'T PANIC. The front of your truck will weigh in at ABOUT 1950lbs with a 5.3 (please don't ***** if i'm off of the weight of your truck as this is an average) Bumpers, doors, glass ....... this all adds up. If you want to get a ride hieght stance, leave the springs out and block the lower arm, sloping downward to the balljoint at appx 5 deg. Now, you said you wanted good handling, so a stiffer spring will help. Now, since MOOG or TRW won't just make us anything we want one-off, we start with what we can get, and go from there. It's OK to cut them - with a sawzall or cutoff wheel. Proper stance and handling is a balance of spring rate AND hieght, and we usually only get to pick one. Now, the next answer will be, but it didn't even go down at all with a motor in it. I read that. Don't worry. Finish the truck, springs are easy to change at the end. Did you see the truck at the end of the video? it was using the Z-28 springs (8002) with one coil cut.
It really does look like you did a nice job, so finish it and drive it, thats the fun part.

[Houston54]

Rob - thanks for replying and the compliment. I am very pleased with the results.

The video does provide good information on this installation but there are areas open to improvement and additional information on suspension component selection/set up would be welcome. With the popularity of this modification continuing I am sure a new and improved version would be well received.

In my opinion this method is cleaner looking than the alternate method of welding the subframe rails to the frame rails. I have complete confidence in this frame and am looking forward to getting it on the road in a couple of years. However there is alot of work to do before that time comes.

Choosing the right springs can be worrisome and I would like to get it right the first time as swapping springs is as much fun as block sanding. Knowing now that you had used a modified 8002 spring is helpful and is what I was looking for back in May. I came across this website during my research on 2nd gen F body springs;
http://www.74-77camaro.com/
It provides good tech data however springs are just one part of the suspension system. It may be a good resource for someone else doing this modification. You also need to take the sway bar size into consideration as it can affect the final effective spring rate.

It is a fact that No Limit supplies high quality parts to our shared hobby and I would not hesitate to consider using them on this build. However when it came to sharing some technical expertise and confirming a valid/critical dimensional issue I was disappointed in the response I got at that time. In the end there was no harm done and I appreciate Rob's comments here.

I am sure this video is not, and should not be, a high priority to them with their wide and varied product line but it is the product that introduced me to No Limit. While the results are more than acceptable, getting there could have been better.

[robnolimit]

Well thanks, we do want you guys to be safe and get these trucks built right. It looks like yours is coming out nice.

[hammerdog57]

While were on the topic of coil springs. I picked up a new pair of front coil springs off ebay to rebuild my camaro clip with. Come to find out there oem replacement for the six cylinder camaro, not the v/8. Can i use these? Or should i reuse the old springs? Plan is to use small block v/8 in truck.

[robnolimit]

A fair question would be 'what kind of ride / or / ride hieght do you want?' The average 55-59 will weigh 3400 - 3600 lbs, with 56 to 58% nose weight. So appx 2000 lbs on the front end. Thats about 1000lbs per corner, and the camaro A-arm leverages the spring about 1.65 to 1. Thats appx 1600lbs of spring load per corner. next, you need a spring height at ride hieght, to make this easy, lets say that at ride hieght the springs will be 10" tall. For a really soft ride, you may dream of a 300lb spring. This spring will compress 5.33" at ride hieght. (300 x 5.33 = 1600) so the spring would need to be 15.33" freestanding. (10 + 5.33) Those wanting a medium ride say 400lb spring will compress the spring 4" at R.H. and need a spring freestanding at 14". Stiffer, sport tuned springs will be in the 500lb/in range. A 500 lb spring will compress 3.2" at R.H., and be 13.2" freestanding. Giving this 3400lb truck with 2000lb nose wt., you can set it at the same R.H. with three (or more) different springs, and have three different rides.

[JadXtreme]

I finally got my Camaro to donate its running gear. I picked up a 77 Type LT Camaro for $300 plus title transfer. What makes the Type LT special? I read that its some kind of luxary model, but mine has roll down windows... Does that still make it LT? The car has alot of good parts in it and I am hopefull that I should get most of my money back for selling the good parts off of it.





I got the car this morning and spent about an 1.5 hours working on the truck. I only had to use the sawzall 2 times.