Questions RE future of hobby

[LEEVON]

A friend owns a true restoration shop. The majority of his work is auction cars and the Corvette crowd, or cars in excess of $50-75,000 value and up to $150,000+. Most of his cars come in as a shell on a rotisserie or just sheet metal on a frame. They go back out with killer paint, panels aligned, etc. but final assembly is rarely done in house. They do a very small amount of insurance work to fill in some schedule gaps. His waiting list is 3-5 YEARS.

He picks his clients, takes money up front, turns work FAST and doesn't cut corners. His shop rate is somewhere around $100/hr and they regularly do single jobs in excess of $40k. With all of that said, he makes a living. Not a killing, but an honest living. There is no money in dis-assembly, re-assembly, parts chasing, etc. If he were to do only work that guys like us could afford, he wouldn't make it. I can do my own prep, spiff him a few hundred for materials and use of the booth and lay some paint myself, but even then I risk getting in the way of a working business.

An idea that my Dad and I have kicked around for years, which I think came from his growing up on military bases, is hobby shop rental. I know there is a new one somewhere on the Kansas side of KC where you can get use of a sand blasting room and equipment, dis-assembly areas, paint areas, and general mechanic areas for different rates and I think it's membership based. Killer idea, but my guess is the business model doesn't bring home much bacon, however I'd like to see it work!

[61K10]

Astronaut hit on the head, our society. he's young and is exception to do this work. there are some young men on this form that are really talented, and doing great work also, from the looks of there trucks. probably didn't stay in the house and play video games all day. It really comes down to $$$ I guess, some have more than others to spend. funny, I'm 64 and still doing my own work---still waiting to hit the lotto!

[kieth]

My 66 GMC is the first vehicle we have ever built from the frame up. I have run shops for years (truck equipment) so I know that labor can really sneak up on you. I had 2 guys who were very good at mechanical and body work. Things were very slow in our business so we all 3 tore into my 66 when we had the time. Due to information on this board and other experience over the years I think we built my truck about as inexpensively as it can be done even when charging labor against the truck at cost. I have been afraid to add it all up but felt that $20,000.00 is the cost of my build. After attempting to do body work I will tell you that it is Chinese water torture ! I am not cut out for it, cause their is no stopping point, after starting over for the 7th time on one fender, I had enough. The reason for the high cost of body work is simply you only get the results by experience and hours and hours of labor.
My 66 has 13,000 miles on it now and I really am glad we built it as a driver. If you build It as a show winner you can only look at it.
If its cheaper to buy a finished truck, but knowing what you accomplished and that you determined how well it was to be done. I will build another even though it probably will not ever bring the $'s back we have in them.
That is why the hobby will not die off.....Kieth

[oem4me]

Good thread topic, and lots of interesting input. The future of our hobby, like the future in general, is uncertain. Labor costs and material costs are just two factors among many putting pressure toward change. Here in SO CA, the various pro-environment agencies have all but strangled the old-school approach of building a vehicle for fun. The business of chrome plating for example, has essentially been driven away from this area. Surviving area platers must now charge an arm and leg just to stay in the game. This environmental trend is spreading (for good reason), and will soon affect everyone, everywhere, if it hasn't already.
For better or worse, change is also due to factors WITHIN our hobby. Obviously, popular trends affect affordability. As demand grows for a particular model and values increase, the resulting outcome is that the average guy is often eliminated from participating.
Fifteen years ago, could you have ever imagined ANY Volkswagon microbus selling for over a hundred grand?? I have a friend who collected literally dozens and dozens of these goofy buses when they cost one or two hundred each. He is now selling them off for many thousands apeice, mainly because, as he says, "the simple joy is gone".

[grs]

Originally Posted by LT1 Burb

So after getting a quote for body and paint it left me wondering what is going to happen to our love of cars and the future price. My quote was for 7500.00 which I couldn't afford for one but thought was to high for another. So I decided to do it myself and went out and spent 1500- 2000.00 on all the tools and material , bondo, sand paper etc. and started to learn how to do it. I probably have 200+ hours in welding in floors and patch panels etc and I realized that 7500 was actually not very much money. I don't or won't work for free and can't expect a body guy to either. Where does that leave us, quality restorations will cost upwards of 10K and for good reason. A shop rate of 50.00 an hour and that is only 200 hours worth of work not including the 3K for materials. There will always be the Macco's or Earl Scheibs but I am talking good old American craftsmanship and jobs where people take pride and do it right. I think the problem is kids don't want to work anymore so we have lost the pre apprentice workers that used to do all the blocking and sanding. I think 2 things are going to happen, the prices of finished quality vehicles will go up or the industry will die. There is only so many guys that will take on painting and bodywork on there own stuff so where does that leave the everyone else. I bet my suburban now to repaint would be over 10K and it was rust free. Am I just out of touch because of where I live or is there a place in the country where I can drop of a truck and have it finished for 5K, I would like to know.

Is Earl Scheibs Still in business? He used to paint a car for $29.95. In buy 9 out by 5.

[american revolution]

one of the main reasons I went towards the chevy trucks.....love classics and prices for restorations and vehicles are out of this world now.


Chevy trucks look great original!! nice wheels ...put a nice running engine....lower it and go.

Everyone calls it the patina phase but to me a truck is a workhorse and should look used and be able to be used and not afraid to scratch it.

Just went to Turlock Swap Meet last weekend and the crowds were great!! I love to see that there are still a lot of people out there that love this hobby.

[BR3W CITY]

Originally Posted by chevyrestoguy

I heard from a very reliable source that Charley Hutton charged $125,000 to paint the '40 Ford that won the Ridler last year. I'm 100% serious.

The cost of materials have skyrocketed, and good paint costs lots of money. It's very easy to have $2,000 in materials alone for a very basic solid color paint job.

It's hard work, and it's takes a ton of labor and time to get a car straight. The high-end paint shops charge between $75 and $100 an hour, and that adds up quickly. Just remember, a good paint job isn't cheap, and a cheap paint isn't good.

Not surprising at all. Its the era when a Union Plumber has a billed rate of $109/hr, so seeing shop labor at $80+ per hr doesn't surprise me, let alone for a high end build.

$2k for materials in CA sounds about right, we get it a tad cheaper since there isn't the EPA stuff to deal with here.

Slight side note; I'm interested to work with the water-based stuff thats CA compliant but haven't had a chance yet.

[donthekawguy]

I plan on doing and learning bodywork on my truck. I learned from my dad how to do a lot of the mechanical stuff. he had plenty of money but always did almost everything himself. I have passed that down to my sons and they do it all them selves and they have a friend who went to school and is ASE certified in just about everything. Someone mentioned the do it yourself shops. There are plenty out there for mechanical work but not a lot for body and paint. I see a few popping up that rent a booth and gun so at least thats coming around. As far as the hobby dying, I dont think it will die but it will change. My oldest son is still into rice burners and my next oldest is more into swapping a Cummins into anything that will take it. At least thats something.

[60ShortStepGMC]

I'm pretty new to the hobby. One thing that I noticed is that classic car shows seem to emphasize the "finished product". All the fine work (a.k.a. high $$ investment): old guys, lots of money, lots of time - no offense to anyone, but not much I could relate to.

Even the hot rod magazines ...."we just took it over to such-n-such a shop and had them redo the whole this-n-that"....check that such-n-such shop's website to find that the work was likely in the $10K range. Not very realistic for me.

I wonder if it wouldn't be nice to see more "starting out", "in progress" and "daily driver" entries at car shows. Maybe that's more the definition of this site (and others) than of a car show - but gee, to talk with the fella that's teaching himself, to hear about a budget I might could afford and think "dang, I could do that after all" - there's the beginner's inspiration IMO.

[clemdaddy]

i'm one of those just starting out guys though i"ve been in the hobby my whole life. it was through necessity that i started doing body and paint. i built a suburban years ago and took it to a reputable restoration shop who did a horrible job on the paint, never setup. you could leave a fingerprint after a year of curing. then the next shop scrapped it all off, sanded and painted a slightly different color than original. nether shop would stand behind their work so with no other options, i undertook it myself. turned out fine. since then i've painted quite a few more and honestly i like doing it. i may be sick but theres a big reward taking something rough and making something beautiful and the reward isn't big profit, its just a satisfying living and the satisfaction is what you make it.

now we've got 3 part-time employees, older guys that need the work. we give reasonable quotes, we do lots of piece work on other peoples trucks and have a couple of current builds going. one of which is a patina job...

as far as the hobby goes... theres not a threat. its gonna last as long as we keep fixing up our trucks. and we each have a level of completion we're satisfied with and a level of competence to get us there. and by the way... the bartering system is alive and well. if you build me a bagged chassis, i'll paint your truck... you overhaul this trans and i will fix that fender... deal...?

its a time and materials world. how much do you value your time and how much is the markup on already expensive materials. one thing is for sure, if you find honorable shops for your paint and body... you'll get what you pay for.

[Grizz1963]

Originally Posted by clemdaddy

i'm one of those just starting out guys though i"ve been in the hobby my whole life. it was through necessity that i started doing body and paint. i built a suburban years ago and took it to a reputable restoration shop who did a horrible job on the paint, never setup. you could leave a fingerprint after a year of curing. then the next shop scrapped it all off, sanded and painted a slightly different color than original. nether shop would stand behind their work so with no other options, i undertook it myself. turned out fine. since then i've painted quite a few more and honestly i like doing it. i may be sick but theres a big reward taking something rough and making something beautiful and the reward isn't big profit, its just a satisfying living and the satisfaction is what you make it.

now we've got 3 part-time employees, older guys that need the work. we give reasonable quotes, we do lots of piece work on other peoples trucks and have a couple of current builds going. one of which is a patina job...

as far as the hobby goes... theres not a threat. its gonna last as long as we keep fixing up our trucks. and we each have a level of completion we're satisfied with and a level of competence to get us there. and by the way... the bartering system is alive and well. if you build me a bagged chassis, i'll paint your truck... you overhaul this trans and i will fix that fender... deal...?

its a time and materials world. how much do you value your time and how much is the markup on already expensive materials. one thing is for sure, if you find honorable shops for your paint and body... you'll get what you pay for.

100% with you.

The reward of a job well done is satisfaction you cannot buy and nobody can take from you.

I simply cannot afford to pay for the work my truck needs, so bartering and self service it will be.

Long may we derive pleasure and joy from our toys.

[lucifer]

I have been in the motorsports industry all my life ( I include this hobby in the motorsports industry). When I started out at a young age there were more young guys willing to work and lots of talented ones as well. Now 40 years later you can't find anyone that is willing to do what is necessary to become an accomplished gear head.
Look around at the races, car shows, flea markets, cruise nights and you don't see much representation from the younger set.

Sorry to say that it may very well be a dying hobby.

[Sean C]

I saw this thread and I've actually wondered the same things you all have. I'm one of those guys here with not so many years under his belt (22) and I've gotta say, it's just tough to get started. I used to drive 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STi, which is an awesome car. That thing could turn on a dime and really snap your neck from a dig! My first encounter with working on it was putting a set of coilovers on and some spacers. I had a blast! BUT I needed the help from a friend who had
A. done it before
B. had the right tools.


For me, my 66' is where I really want to start learning all of this. The problem is time, money, know-how, and tools. I'm a full-time Architecture student, which really gives me little free time. Sleeping more than 4-5 hours a night during the school week is challenge enough. Honestly, it's just a little terrifying to start really doing work on my truck. Also, I have no clue where to find someone who can help who knows all of this stuff and "mentor" me. It's part of the reason I'm here. There is so much knowledge here and I'm so glad it's all being shared, because otherwise, I'd just be lost.

Anyway, just thought I'd give you another young guy's perspective. I will have to agree, though, there aren't many of us out there. I have a handful of friends who share my interest of working on our cars/trucks/bikes, but most of young people see a car as simply a way to get from A to B. You guys keep me inspired and I'm doing my best to become a real "Gear Head"

[NEWFISHER]

Thanks Sean C for the input and the perspective.

[lucifer]

Originally Posted by Sean C

I saw this thread and I've actually wondered the same things you all have. I'm one of those guys here with not so many years under his belt (22) and I've gotta say, it's just tough to get started. I used to drive 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STi, which is an awesome car. That thing could turn on a dime and really snap your neck from a dig! My first encounter with working on it was putting a set of coilovers on and some spacers. I had a blast! BUT I needed the help from a friend who had
A. done it before
B. had the right tools.


For me, my 66' is where I really want to start learning all of this. The problem is time, money, know-how, and tools. I'm a full-time Architecture student, which really gives me little free time. Sleeping more than 4-5 hours a night during the school week is challenge enough. Honestly, it's just a little terrifying to start really doing work on my truck. Also, I have no clue where to find someone who can help who knows all of this stuff and "mentor" me. It's part of the reason I'm here. There is so much knowledge here and I'm so glad it's all being shared, because otherwise, I'd just be lost.

Anyway, just thought I'd give you another young guy's perspective. I will have to agree, though, there aren't many of us out there. I have a handful of friends who share my interest of working on our cars/trucks/bikes, but most of young people see a car as simply a way to get from A to B. You guys keep me inspired and I'm doing my best to become a real "Gear Head"

Too bad you aren't near me. I would be happy to have you around my shop !

[par4tom]

And let's not forget the costs of doing business in that $100 an hour rate.

the employer pays rent, electricity, gas, salaries, payroll taxes, workers comp insurance (10% to 15% of payrolls here in California), health insurance for employees, materials, parts, tools, supplies, uniforms, liability insurance, garagekeepers liability insurance, company auto insurance, property and tools insurance, overhead, paint, paint supplies, inventories, fixtures...and on and on and on...

Honestly, I don't know how some of these guys make it at $100 an hour unless it's insurance work. And with good help being hard to come by (guys don't show up for work, or your train them and they go to your competitor down the street for 50 cents more an hour, family problems, big egos, side jobs, etc), being in any type of business is less and less about taking care of customers, its more a form of adult day-care for employees...

[AcampoDave]

I still encounter plenty of "do it yourself guys" and many can build nice rides. I did my own paint and body and it looks great from 20 feet back, (maybe 10 even.) Sure, I got some waves, a couple runs, and I used fiberglass to patch up some rust, but I never beat myself up over my flaws because I did it myself and to the best of my abilities at the time. I even had it featured in a "Reader's Rides" section of a popular truck mag. I learned a lot in the process and although now I look at some of the work I did back then and kinda shake my head, I'm still proud as can be everytime someone says "nice truck". You can spend a fortune, or keep it real and both routes still get compliments. I say, go fot it, learn as you go, and keep it cheap the first time around. Later when your skills improve, you can always do it again on a bigger budget.

[joeydirt]

Originally Posted by Sean C

Anyway, just thought I'd give you another young guy's perspective. I will have to agree, though, there aren't many of us out there. I have a handful of friends who share my interest of working on our cars/trucks/bikes, but most of young people see a car as simply a way to get from A to B. You guys keep me inspired and I'm doing my best to become a real "Gear Head"

Its sad Im 33 and kids who were interested in working on cars were few and far between back in my high school years I cant imagine the numbers look to good today. A lot of it has to do with public schools and how kids are being raised. Makes me think of this video its a great
Than aside from the lack of interest and knowledge that is dying off with the old timers our hobby is being attacked on the environmental front. Also dont forget that humans and our bad driving as a whole are going to probably make it illegal or impractical to own a vehicle that doesnt drive itself in the not so distant future.

[WhippinSaw]

Originally Posted by Lugnutz65

Story #2: I'm gonna do my truck myself. Why? Well, first of all, it's a truck, not a Ferrari.
You see, it's like going to college all over again. Truck College is what I call it. I am amazed at how much stuff I have learned by being brave enough to try something I've never done before. In the end, I will have the skills that the apprentice has and maybe a tad bit more. Most will be self taught by reading books, FSM and the internet. As long as the experienced folks keep sharing their knowledge, I'll keep learning. A lot of my "Truck College" education comes from this forum where folks feel comfortable to share successes and even mistakes. I think this forum is great and will help keep this hobby of ours ALIVE!

I like the truck college analogy, after setting up the garage and learning to weld and paint on the truck, I repainted my daughters 07 Jetta saving over 2000$, it took me two weeks were a pro could of done it a couple of days but was well worth it. Before going to "Truck College", I would have never been brave enough to tackle a job like that. It was fun to learn and a very satisfying to enjoy the finished product. I am also much better physical shape. I lost over 30 lbs in the last year doing what 1963c-10 calls the "c10 workout".
Grinding, sanding, welding and so on is a messy job not to mention the toxicity of the paints and thinners, no wonder the younger folk are staying away from this field. Back in the day there was very little knowledge of the health issues related to this field. I have a skilled auto body friend who worked in a body shop during the 1980's and he now has severe health problems, I think that is what happened to a lot of the skilled painters and increased the bottom line. (regulations restrictions)

[ianw31]

Originally Posted by Sean C

I saw this thread and I've actually wondered the same things you all have. I'm one of those guys here with not so many years under his belt (22) and I've gotta say, it's just tough to get started. I used to drive 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STi, which is an awesome car. That thing could turn on a dime and really snap your neck from a dig! My first encounter with working on it was putting a set of coilovers on and some spacers. I had a blast! BUT I needed the help from a friend who had
A. done it before
B. had the right tools.


For me, my 66' is where I really want to start learning all of this. The problem is time, money, know-how, and tools. I'm a full-time Architecture student, which really gives me little free time. Sleeping more than 4-5 hours a night during the school week is challenge enough. Honestly, it's just a little terrifying to start really doing work on my truck. Also, I have no clue where to find someone who can help who knows all of this stuff and "mentor" me. It's part of the reason I'm here. There is so much knowledge here and I'm so glad it's all being shared, because otherwise, I'd just be lost.

Anyway, just thought I'd give you another young guy's perspective. I will have to agree, though, there aren't many of us out there. I have a handful of friends who share my interest of working on our cars/trucks/bikes, but most of young people see a car as simply a way to get from A to B. You guys keep me inspired and I'm doing my best to become a real "Gear Head"

Im with you on this one im 26 and I love classic cars and trucks and I love getting dirty and working on them I just lack any teaching or experience. I never had anyone close to me that was into the hobby. After high school I looked at schools such as UTI and Wyotech. Instead I joined the Navy, currently working as an airframe mechanic. I would love to have a mentor to show me the ropes and teach me everything they know and I would be willing to put in the work. since I don't have that I also find great inspiration and knowledge from this site if I wouldn't have found this site I would have never bought my 66. So from a younger guy thank you to those of you who help us out with our questions. I learn something new about these trucks everyday from the forums. So I hope the hobby doesn't die and I plan to pass on what I learn and my truck to my son so he to can appreciate these awesome trucks and the skills to work on them.

[best view]

cheaper to do frame off than buy a new truck with low tire montering, daylight running lights, air bags, parks itself, try to fix that wasted stuff:

[bmur66]

Yes, but it is much easier to get a loan for a new one . After reading this thread I feel very good about the freshly painted '65 I have owned for over a year now. Still not driveable but the body and paint is nice. Not show quality but nice.

[MikeN]

Originally Posted by AcampoDave

I still encounter plenty of "do it yourself guys" and many can build nice rides. I did my own paint and body and it looks great from 20 feet back, (maybe 10 even.) Sure, I got some waves, a couple runs, and I used fiberglass to patch up some rust, but I never beat myself up over my flaws because I did it myself and to the best of my abilities at the time. I even had it featured in a "Reader's Rides" section of a popular truck mag. I learned a lot in the process and although now I look at some of the work I did back then and kinda shake my head, I'm still proud as can be everytime someone says "nice truck". You can spend a fortune, or keep it real and both routes still get compliments. I say, go fot it, learn as you go, and keep it cheap the first time around. Later when your skills improve, you can always do it again on a bigger budget.

I'm planning to go about it exactly as you have, and I'm even going the same color as you, minus the white roof. Your truck looks great. if mine turns out anywhere near as nice as yours, I'll be pleased.

I might contact you at some point later to ask about what paint materials you used if that's OK. Your color turned out exactly as I hope mine does.

[AcampoDave]

Originally Posted by MikeN

I'm planning to go about it exactly as you have, and I'm even going the same color as you, minus the white roof. Your truck looks great. if mine turns out anywhere near as nice as yours, I'll be pleased.

I might contact you at some point later to ask about what paint materials you used if that's OK. Your color turned out exactly as I hope mine does.

Thanks for the compliments, contact me anytime. Happy to help...you know where to find me.

[66 C10 383]

Originally Posted by par4tom

And let's not forget the costs of doing business in that $100 an hour rate.

the employer pays rent, electricity, gas, salaries, payroll taxes, workers comp insurance (10% to 15% of payrolls here in California), health insurance for employees, materials, parts, tools, supplies, uniforms, liability insurance, garagekeepers liability insurance, company auto insurance, property and tools insurance, overhead, paint, paint supplies, inventories, fixtures...and on and on and on...

Honestly, I don't know how some of these guys make it at $100 an hour unless it's insurance work. And with good help being hard to come by (guys don't show up for work, or your train them and they go to your competitor down the street for 50 cents more an hour, family problems, big egos, side jobs, etc), being in any type of business is less and less about taking care of customers, its more a form of adult day-care for employees...

This is what a lot of people are missing the point on. You take your car/truck to a shop of any kind. Notice the word "shop". The guy has to have a place to work on it at. What does it cost to buy/rent the building the work will be performed at cost. Then, open to door and more cost are involved. Electricity, heat, insurance, etc. Can't work in an empty building so he has to have tools to do the job. And specialty tools aren't cheap. The man who does the work has a family to feed. He also has employees that need to be paid, incurring more cost.

I don't own a shop or even work in one. But I do realize the cost of owning and running a business. No, I can't afford someone who charges $80 - $100 an hour but I respect the ones who do. Their cost are high and not getting any cheaper thanks to taxes, government regulations, etc.

The true masters in these businesses are craftsmen. Skilled labor isn't cheap or everybody would be doing it ...