Other paypal gift option on sales.

[Cash3481]

I will make sure my future post include the no gift wording and correct the threads that come TTT. I frequently get payments from previous customers that include the added amount or on the other side... I state a price shipped and the person adds more money on top of the quoted amount and then pays as a gift (I appreciate it too).
Although I don't depend on parts for income (I reinvest it into more parts), several people do. I can see where there is significant losses over the course of the year for parts suppliers/businesses because small parts have small profit margins.
I also understand there has been several deals gone south and that ruins it for others but like it or not it's still customer based sales and this site has the best people/customers.
The SIGNIFICANT SAVINGS I get buying here offsets the 3%. Think of the added cost as a savings privilege we get (and give) to each other.
If people have to raise their prices I'll pay it! I would like to thank all who sell on here and share their wisdom. I think the knowledge I learn on here every month is worth the $15 a month I pay. Thanks again to all!

[w314speed]

The difference in hobbyist sales and vendor sales is the vendors have recourse through tax deduction for business expenses, hobbyist don't.

We all want to sell our parts for fair market value and not have to absorb the payment method of PayPal or credit card. When all the extra's are stuffed into the sale price, then many think you are ripping them off.

The payment method that the buyer chooses is for their convenience, for quick shipping etc. As stated in this thread check and money order can still be used.

The adding of the 3% fees to purchase and shipping charges is the best way to handle PayPal. That will put all specific charges on the table and in-front of "all". Thanks, Dan

[lowlyfec10]

i've always used and gotten gift payments, i hate the fees....but i understand the risk and i've never been out to screw anyone over. i guess i will no longer mention it here. no sweat.

[Maddoxdb]

As a purchaser, paying an extra 3% for faster shipping is really a pretty cheap upgrade on shipping price vs. waiting for the seller to receive your check or money order. On a larger purchase I may consider sending money orders still but for smaller stuff 3% really isn't that big of a deal. Dustin

[cheyenne shortstep]

It is the cost of doing business and the convenience of instant payment vs. waiting on the mail. I don't ask the buyer to cover the fees I include that in my asking, shipped price. I am always a little turned off when agreeing to buy something for asking price and receive a message asking me to cover the PP fees. I agreed to a price and the seller agreed to a payment method but then wants to charge extra, no thanks. Just my 2 cents.

[DeadheadNM]

Should this be a sticky thread?

[jjzepplin]

I cover the fees and never use the gift option to save money. I have been saved several times by this function from otherwise highly rated sellers. The 45 days to launch a dispute for the transaction is a fair amount of time to get the issue resolved and I have used this function a few times to give the seller even one more chance to make it right or send my product. It works.

[jocko]

Question just for clarification. Is it acceptable for a seller to tell the buyer (in a pm only after an "I'll take it" is posted in the for sale thread) that the buyer must pay fees for a paypal transaction?

I guess if the seller offers a different option, such as an MO, well, I could see that. However, as the paypal fee is a "seller's" fee, it seems that if the seller wants the buyer to foot that bill that it should be listed in the for sale ad before the deal is made.

Or, life would be simpler if the seller decided that, if $10 is his bottom dollar, then he'd only sell it for $10.59 via paypal in order to actually get $10 out of it. But I know it is acceptable for a seller to ask the buyer to pay fees up front - and that's fine with me, absolutely don't mind doing that. But I believe the intention of paypal is that the seller list a price that is acceptable to the seller that includes the seller paying the fees (i.e. the $10.59 for sale example).

Anyway, as stated, I don't mind paying the fees at all as a buyer if a seller states it up front. My specific question is whether or not it's ok for sellers to add buyer must pay fees after the "I'll take it" is posted in the thread by sending a pm to that end. This has happened to me several times, and I do the math and pay the fee as requested, but it's math the seller could have done and added to the price in the first place - or, at a minimum, told me up front so I could do that math and know what I'd really be paying. All comes out in the wash, I'd pay the same either way. But I have to admit I don't like the added cost in a pm after a "price" is agreed to in the thread. Seems it's the seller's responsibility beforehand. No big deal on a $10 part. Big deal on a $1000 part.

[GR8-68]

How I normally handle this is when they ask for a total with shipping I add it into the total price with shipping it makes it simple and the seller does not have to keep adding costs to the overall price. If the seller has a lot of parts that he has priced reasonable to be sure to move them quickly they can start losing quickly what little profit is being made. I learned the hard way that I can't eat all the costs. But I do not give a price and then add to it.

[jocko]

Guess I have a follow-up question on this then. So, if your items are listed for "$XX + shipping" and someone says "I'll take it" in the thread - and you then tell the buyer "the total is $YY" (and that total actually includes shipping and paypal fees)), isn't the buyer now paying the seller's paypal fees without even knowing it? Or, do you tell them that "the total is $YY, which includes shipping and paypal fees"? (which, to me, would be finding out after committing to buy the part and pay the shipping that you are also paying fees).

Seems it would just be easier to list the item as "$XX + shipping + paypal fees" up front.

Personally, I prefer to list items as "$ZZ shipped CONUS" - that way, the buyer knows the total up front - and the seller could have rolled anything he wants into the shipping, etc - shipping doesn't even have to be accurate - the buyer just has to assess if the price is worth the cost, and then commit. No back and forth to every zip code in the country and no extra work for the seller to determine the individual shipping costs. If one lives in FL and lists something as $ZZ shipped, he'll probably make a little more profit if the buyer is in FL than if the buyer is in WA. As long as the seller determines his shipped selling price to make his desired profit and still ship to the furthest point in CONUS, he's covered, no place to go but up. And the buyer is happy to commit to the price he sees listed if it's worth it to him.

Don't get me wrong, NOTHING wrong with listing something as price + shipping, that's the norm. I'm not sure I'm convinced about adding paypal fees into a shipping quote unless it's stated in the ad, otherwise it is finding out after committing, or, worse yet, not at all. Not all buyers ask for the shipping quote when they say I'll take it - they just pay the number the seller comes back with after the commit, which should only be shipping, if the item is listed as "$XX + shipping".

My 2cents only. I have no problem with someone asking me to pay their seller fees - I just want to know I'm doing it, before I say "I'll take it".

[cheyenne shortstep]

I'm with Jocko pretty much all the way. I list most of my stuff with a shipped price so the buyer knows exactly how much it will cost to the door, no surprises. I have backed out of a purchase when told I was expected to pay PayPal fees, not for the extra cost but on principle. When an item is listed at $z or $z + shipping and then told it would be more I'm not into it. Just add a bit more to the asking price up front.

[GR8-68]

So if I buy a part from you why should I have to pay extra cost on shipping because you figured it going further than it is ? If as a buyer I would possibly only have to pay 12.00 shipping I certainly wouldn't want to pay 24.00 because you figured shipping it across the country. How does it look when someone gets a package and they were charged 24,00 and they see on the package you only had to pay 12.00 ? And anytime I pm I tell them it includes pp fees, the seller should not have to consume the cost.

[Dustmaker65]

I will also back out of a purchase if the buyer wants PP fees added after I agree to buy. If you want paid thru PP, then time to adjust prices before listing. Anyone on here that says that the fees eat to much of their profit should not be buying items to flip. Maybe time for some of these guys to go work in the real world....

[jocko]

Originally Posted by GR8-68

How does it look when someone gets a package and they were charged 24,00 and they see on the package you only had to pay 12.00 ?

In a "$XX Shipped" scenario, there is no "charged $24" part to your equation - it is fiction - when is the buyer ever told it will be $24 shipping? - not sure what you're talking about. The buyer simply sees the $XX shipped price stated in the ad, decides whether it's worth it, and commits. When it arrives and there is a $12 shipping stamp, he knows that the seller made $12 less than what the buyer paid for the item - but he probably doesn't care because he agreed that the shipped price stated up front was worth it to him. End of story. If the buyer wants to fret over how much the seller made, well, that's his choice. The risk is all the seller's. You're not paying more for shipping because you live further - you're paying an agreed up front price for a shipped item, period.

This reminds me of a recent purchase on Craigslist from a very elderly couple. I bought a set of tractor fenders for $300. The seller took the fenders to a distant rural post office and got an estimate of $120 to ship them. No paypal involved. I said, ok, I'll send you a cashier's check (seller's preference) for $420. They were concerned that the shipping might possibly be $417-418 and I'd be over-paying - and I appreciated that, BUT, because this transaction was taking forever, I tried to explain to the seller that I was ok with that, the fenders are worth $420 to me - so just consider it an additional $2-3 profit. It took a while, but they finally got it - and it saved them yet another trip to the rural post office. What would have been 3 trips was now 2, still a pain for them.

There's nothing wrong with a "$XX shipped" sale. The seller assumes the risk that someone FAR away buys it. He has to be ok with that. The buyer just has to be ok with the stated price total up front, and he knows what he's getting into. Can't run a business this way on ebay, no, but thank goodness we amateurs can on here. (EDIT: actually - ebay sellers do it all the time - you can be certain that a FREE shipping listing makes up the shipping cost in the price)

Still, telling someone after they've committed to a purchase that, oh by the way, you've included paypal fees in the shipping is indeed telling them after the fact and adding a cost to the purchase they didn't expect - and, not to mention, a cost that is legally the responsibility of the seller in PayPal's eyes. As multiple folks have posted, they have backed out when they're told something similar after an I'll take it post on principle. I'm guessing here, but I'd be willing to bet that folks that back out on principle MIGHT have still said "Ill take it" if the sale price stated $XX+shipping+pp fees" in the ad - that would have eliminated the principle that caused them to bail - no surprises after the sale.

Paypal fees are a seller responsibility, not the buyer's. If a seller doesn't want to pay them and states the buyer must in the thread, well, that will work I guess. Still seems easier to just raise the asking price by the amount of the fee for what you'd like to receive and just run with that, but that's just me.

Again, the administrators have already established that it's perfectly acceptable to have the seller state that the buyer pay the fees, and I have no problem with that either. What I don't like hearing is that I have to pay them afterward in a pm. I've learned a lot in this thread, glad I took the time to read it.

[richard2717]

To me, it doesn't matter how someone lists something for sale AS LONG AS it is clearly listed up front. Give me the opportunity UP FRONT to decide if I want it. Saves a lot of headache. Because of the shipping rate variations I no longer do a shipped price. I have spent money to send people parts in the past because i would rather hold to my word on price stated. With all the online calculators it is not that hard or time consuming to get a pretty accurate cost within a few bucks. I have a shipping account with UPS so if I have a complete address I can tell right to the penny what it will cost to send. If i only have a zip it generally short changes me on shipping a few bucks unless I guestimate more in to it. Depending on the item it could mean the difference between making the sale or not.
I charge the same for the part regardless if MO or paypal since MO I have to take the time to get it cashed.

[GR8-68]

Truly no one has to uphold to buying something if the total price with shipping and fees seems unfair to them, I agree with Richard to many times I have had to pay out of my pocket to ship something trying the shipped price game. It is risky to say the least, my prices obviously predict I am not trying to make a living off the parts I sell. If someone wants a part bad enough they are willing to pay the extra few dollars to cover the fees, I have never had an issue with anyone backing out because the fees were added into the price of shipping. All I do is state within my pm to them that this covers ALL fees including PP, so I am not conning anyone.

[jocko]

Larry - I'm pretty sure I've purchased stuff from you before and it was a great transaction as I recall - and if you asked me to pay fees, I'm sure I paid them without even a question.

The main reason I asked my question above was related to a transaction with another member. After I committed to buying in the thread, I was asked to pay the seller's paypal fees in a pm - and for the first time this happened in a "$XX shipped" listing. So, it clearly wasn't $$ shipped, it was $$ + paypal fees, shipped. And I'd have bought it still if it were listed as in the latter wording, but anyway. It was a small dollar transaction, so I paid it with no questions. (Ironically, when the part arrived broken due to poor packaging, I was refunded just the part price, not the paypal fees. So, Paypal, you are welcome for my donation to your Christmas fund. Again, if the tiny amount is so significant that the seller insists the buyer pay it, then he should accept that it's also significant to the buyer - and refund it if the packaging was the problem (it clearly was). But I digress - this transaction was for peanuts, so not worth groveling over it, but the principle and how it evolved spawned my question).

Anyway, back to the main discussion that has developed here - when I am asked to pay the seller's fees after I've committed to buy a part in a thread, it puts me as the buyer in the weird spot of having to decide whether to continue with the transaction (because I REALLY want the part), whether to bail due to the added cost (on an expensive piece, for example - the fee amount is important to the buyer just as much as it is to the seller), or whether to bail on principle because of an after the fact added cost (as several folks above have stated they would do).

So while you haven't had anyone back out on you yet, I guess I have to ask why not just state "+shipping and paypal fees" in the for sale ad rather than just "+shipping" when it's clearly not just shipping?

I've heard several other sellers state they "just can't afford the fees - it eats up all the profit or they lose money" - but, c'mon now - quite frankly, it's hogwash, and here's why: The seller has COMPLETE control over the asking price, so if there is an absolute bottom or absolute amount of profit a seller wants to attain, why not just add 2.9% + $0.30 to whatever that absolute firm must have bottom dollar or profit is and list it for that amount? This way the seller gets exactly what he wanta without surprising a buyer with a fee after he commits. And NOBODY has ever said they won't buy if the seller includes paypal fees in the asking price (the buyer would actually never even know - they just would know the "real" asking price) or if the seller simply asked that fees be covered in the ad. To me, it just seems best to list it for a price that achieves what you want for a profit, period (fees included) or, at a minimum, state in the ad that the buyer pays the paypal fees. To do so afterward may not lose you the sale, but it just seems not quite right. And others have stated their opinion on the principle involved, so it must not be just my midwest upbringing spidey sense working against me. I don't think for a second that increasing the price by 2.9% or even just stating that the buyer must pay fees in the ad will cause a buyer to not buy, but in some cases - they won't if the fees are sprung on them after they commit.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with how we do business on here and I'll continue to do it with you and anyone else - as you stated, a buyer can ALWAYS back out before paying if a seller pops in fees after the fact and that's fine. I don't mind paying a seller's fees IF I know I'm going to have to - but it's not logical to think that you can't make the exact same profit on here if you pay your own seller's fees (that seems to be the recurring complaint) - you simply sell the part for an amount that ensures you get the profit you want, yes, a number that is (2.9% + $0.30) above whatever "that" number you want is. Just don't understand why it's kept from the buyer until after he's committed to buy in the thread.

Yesterday, I wrote a check to the DMV for a tag renewal. As I was about to lick the envelope, I read a note on the back in small print that said "add $1.00 to total fee if paying by mail". Big deal? No, it's what I expect from DMVers. But not what I expect here amongst friends. I had to tear up the dang check and write a new one. Ha.

[Chevy4Life]

Last time I checked asking for a buyer to pay Paypal fees is a violation of their TOS. It may not happen often but I'm sure repeated abuse could get your account closed.

For me Paypal is a huge time saver and it's worth every cent of time saved waiting, checking the mail, going to the bank, etc....

Plus, I get the $ instantly to spend on more parts. If I want it in the bank it's 1 click of the mouse. I will never understand trying to get an extra buck(most of the time less) off a deal. If you need the extra buck price it a dollar higher and if you get a Money order and run around getting it in the bank you're ahead(I guess)

My 1/2 cent

[jjzepplin]

To quote Liz---



paypal gift option on sales.
I am sure a nicely worded post will be made soon For now this will have to suffice.

Asking for paypal gift option as payment is a no no. Just because the site rules do not say NO PAYPAL GIFT OPTION, does not mean it is ok. To use this service, other than getting a gift is defrauding paypal, and illegal. Illegal activities and fraudulent practices are both topics in the site rules.

The pay with paypal gift deal, has been an issue for a while. It seems to be getting out of hand now. If you do not want to pay the dollar or two fees to use the service, than perhaps you should go back to using money orders.

So in conclusion, if you ask for someone to pay using the gift option you will likely find your self with a suspended account. If you knowingly pay using the paypal gift option, and then get taken for a ride, sorry.. the seller will be removed but its your own issue.

If you have an ad running now that asks for payment via gift option, you should probably edit it. Just saying

[jocko]

jj - discussion in the few posts above yours isn't about the gift option - it's about who pays fees when using the "paying for goods or services" as we're supposed to. Gifting is clearly not allowed per admins - I was asking about being asked to pay a seller's fees in a pm AFTER an "I'll take it".

[Liz]

I missed that. Is it right? nope.. can they do it? if they want to lose business, sure. The review section is the perfect area for that type of feedback. In the end, we can not control every aspect of a deal. If someone is changing the price, post a review and say thanks anyway

[jjzepplin]

Originally Posted by jjzepplin

To quote Liz---



paypal gift option on sales.
I am sure a nicely worded post will be made soon For now this will have to suffice.

Asking for paypal gift option as payment is a no no. Just because the site rules do not say NO PAYPAL GIFT OPTION, does not mean it is ok. To use this service, other than getting a gift is defrauding paypal, and illegal. Illegal activities and fraudulent practices are both topics in the site rules.

The pay with paypal gift deal, has been an issue for a while. It seems to be getting out of hand now. If you do not want to pay the dollar or two fees to use the service, than perhaps you should go back to using money orders.

So in conclusion, if you ask for someone to pay using the gift option you will likely find your self with a suspended account. If you knowingly pay using the paypal gift option, and then get taken for a ride, sorry.. the seller will be removed but its your own issue.

If you have an ad running now that asks for payment via gift option, you should probably edit it. Just saying

Oh, my bad.
Well, I pay my own fees as I feel they are a small price to pay for the security of using Paypal. I do however send a few extra bucks when buying something with Paypal to offset the fees for the seller. Especially when it is a good deal, and most on this site are just that.

[newbraunie]

Great thread. Glad I took time to read. I have previously always been a buyer on the forum. Now that I only have one project working it is time for me to sell off parts I no longer need. I will be moving next Spring and do not want to haul this stuff to my next house. Moving forward I will opt to do $xx price plus shipping on larger, bulky, odd shaped & hard to box up items and $xx price shipped on smaller stuff where shipping costs are more consistent regardless of location.

[a1vintage69]

I saw where some members are sending payment as friends and family. maybe if they see this it will let them know it's against the rules.

[a1vintage69]

Originally Posted by a1vintage69

I saw where some members are sending payment as friends and family. maybe if they see this it will let them know it's against the rules.

paypal fees are paid buy the buyer