Is the restorer legally responsible ??

[factorystock]

Originally Posted by jim-bob

something that you did or failed to do in the restoration? OR...that person sells the vehicle that you restored..who's responsible

IMO, it all depends on what went wrong. Are we talking a restoration ( restored to factory condition ) or are we talking a resto-mod ( vehicle componets not period equipment ) ? If its restored, most of the componets are either original or rebuilt. The integrity of the vehicle depends depends on the quality of the maintenance. It would be like buying a used car, the responsibility would be on the buyer to make sure it is in good condition and maintained properly. If it is a resto mod, some componets on the vehicle may have been altered and re engineered. The builder may be welding or bolting in new steering box's, swapping in different axles, modifying the suspension etc. The builder has become part of the manufacturing process, and in a way, involved with a joint venture with GM as the manufacturer of the vehicle. If the modification failed, IMO, the builder might be responsible also.

[jim-bob]

Originally Posted by factorystock

IMO, it all depends on what went wrong. Are we talking a restoration ( restored to factory condition ) or are we talking a resto-mod ( vehicle componets not period equipment ) ? If its restored, most of the componets are either original or rebuilt. The integrity of the vehicle depends depends on the quality of the maintenance. It would be like buying a used car, the responsibility would be on the buyer to make sure it is in good condition and maintained properly. If it is a resto mod, some componets on the vehicle may have been altered and re engineered. The builder may be welding or bolting in new steering box's, swapping in different axles, modifying the suspension etc. The builder has become part of the manufacturing process, and in a way, involved with a joint venture with GM as the manufacturer of the vehicle. If the modification failed, IMO, the builder might be responsible also.

Now..this is getting better and you are right about restomod..I didn;t say that..but I guess that should have been the subject..Restomod..simular to KP Jon's News post
thanks guy

[Grumpy old man]

Originally Posted by jim-bob

guys..this was just a hypo question...no one that I know is involved in anything i've mentioned..I'm not a restorer,,but have had some restored and later sold AS IS and if something that the restorer failed to do and "not a part that was used" and can be proven that caused the horrific accident I assumed the "restorer" will be held responsible..
I was just curious and thought that some of you on the forum have restored vehicles for family and/or friends and maybe you have thought on this...How are you protected from being sued for maybe alot more than your insurance will cover..
Are you saying you would never restore for anyone period? That's my feelings..
And as someone said if it's restoration shop they have Insurance..
It just seemed odd to me that no one ever mentions this scenereo..

Once the "truck" was purchased AS IS All liability lies with the new owner , If the wheels fall off or the frame drops on the ground the new owner has NO recourse on a previous repair or restoration . You can't go back in time and say "Well this should have been fixed " There are no lifetime warranties or guarantees on a restoration . read the fine print on your "restoration shop" paperwork ,It probably reads manufactures warranty on parts minus labor 30 days non transferable . The back yard restorer is just taking the chance he won't get sued and if he does what would someone expect too get his house with the mortgage ? If you do sell the "truck" without an AS IS agreement the buyer can only come back to you the seller .

Anyone ever read the fine print on any repair shops paper work when you take your car or truck in for work ? your signing a mechanics lien .

[ls1nova71]

The problem with this country is everybody wants something for nothing, and suing someone to get something is as easy as opening a phone book. The lawyer section is the biggest part of the phone book these days...... which brings me to my question. Does this "As is agreement" need to be some kind of official form, or just something written up at time of the sale?

[Coley]

Originally Posted by ls1nova71

The problem with this country is everybody wants something for nothing, and suing someone to get something is as easy as opening a phone book. The lawyer section is the biggest part of the phone book these days...... which brings me to my question. Does this "As is agreement" need to be some kind of official form, or just something written up at time of the sale?

Good point.
This is actually part of the new 'victim' mentality that is out there in different levels right now.
Its rampant and almost epidemic in young people...but it has also seeped into our older generation.
If people think there is 'sliver' of opportunity to get a personal leg up and over someone else...certainly financially, then people are all over it.
We are also the same generation that often bemoans this kind of thing...until it lands in our court.....then its lawyer up time....and chase the bucks and outsource the blame.
I don't like this anymore than the next guy...but we have to be honest about whether we would chase down a previous owner if we felt something they did or didn't due to the truck that we 'felt' caused us trouble or harm.

Coley

[Jason Banks]

I would definitely put the "As Is" in your bill of sale.

Gone are the days of selling a vehicle for no paperwork. At least for me.

I had a 2008 Sierra Denali that I bought new. In 2013 I put it on craigslist and it took a while to get anyone interested. Some guy came and bought it from me for $20000 in cash. I basically did the minimum bill of sale. I was smart enough to report the sale to the State of Texas online. About a year later I get a call from the police and they tell me 'My Truck' has been involved in an accident and it is at the impound yard. I also got a call from some girl that was in 'my truck' at the time of the accident but she didn't know who she was with and she was in the hospital. Then I got a call from her attorney and a letter from her attorney. I also got a bill from the fire department for their services that were provided at the accident scene. A little while later I started getting bills from the toll roads.

The guy had paid $20000 cash for a vehicle and never transferred the title into his name.

I had saved to my computer an electronic copy of the receipt you get when you notify the state that your sold the vehicle and sent it to everyone and I was off the hook. I was also able to provide everyone with all the information I had about the guy...which wasn't much. Next vehicle I sold, I got a copy of they guys drivers license and had a better 'bill of sale'

Who want's to see the picture of the totaled Denali that I found on one of those salvage vehicle auction sites by searching the VIN?

[Elliot949]

Originally Posted by weq92f

Definitely consult a law professional.

However... a personal friend of mine went to court and won against the seller of a Harley who didn't disclose a modification ( lowering ) that limited the bikes turning radius due to interference with the ground. My buddy crashed the bike and nearly died.

Not exactly the same thing, but is a good example of complex liability case.

-klb

That blows that the shop was held accountable for a rider that clearly didn't know how to ride the bike he bought... Just saying... I would bet he knew dayam well the bike had been lowered and if he hadn't been "pushing" the bike to its limits then it would not have happened...

People and there ridiculous entitlement lawsuits out for a dollar... This country has gone crazy on lawsuits and not accepting responsibility for their own responsibilities...

[toolboxchev]

Most restoration facilities focus on one aspect of the vehicle or the other.

Paint and Body guys make awful mechanical people.

I would not trust any normal body shop to handle the mechanical.

[davepl]

Restoration is different.

If a shop restores a vehicle to original condition and does it correctly and then that vehicle suffers a collision, I thnk the shop is fine. The abillity of the vehicle to avoid an accident is constrainted by the original GM design, not by the workmanship of the shop.

But I bet that If the shop makes modifications and customizations and so on then it could be quite different.

So I think in part it might depend on how original the "work" was. And it certainly depends on whether that work was done right.

[Elliot949]

Originally Posted by davepl

Restoration is different.

If a shop restores a vehicle to original condition and does it correctly and then that vehicle suffers a collision, I thnk the shop is fine. The abillity of the vehicle to avoid an accident is constrainted by the original GM design, not by the workmanship of the shop.

But I bet that If the shop makes modifications and customizations and so on then it could be quite different.

So I think in part it might depend on how original the "work" was. And it certainly depends on whether that work was done right.

The shop likely Will still be involved in the Lawsuit...

Typically when a lawsuit is filed it includes ANYBODY that is involved with that action, product or act...

[jocko]

Originally Posted by davepl

And it certainly depends on whether that work was done right.

I think that is the crux of the issue - whether a resto or a hot rod, doesn't matter. A 100 pt concours resto that was specifically contracted by a customer on his or her vehicle that gets wrapped around a tree because the GM lug nuts weren't tightened is probably something a resto shop should be concerned with. I was the guy that this happened to once - made it about 5 miles down the road before my left front tire sped out in front of me bouncing into oncoming traffic. I suddenly knew what they shiny flashes or shiny specs were that I had seen out of my peripheral vision - my own lug nuts flying off one by one over the span of about 30 seconds. Luckily nobody was hurt. This wasn't a resto, I was a kid and I had BFG T/As mounted on Cragar S/S with unilugs that I'd just had mounted and balanced at a neighborhood shop. While I didn't go storming into the guy's shop flinging lawyerin threats, I did give him a call to let him know.. All he said was "those darn unilugs, I meant to tell you to retighten em after about a couple miles...". Now, he may have been BS-in me, unilug wheels are a bit notorious for sucking, BUT, the fact that all 5 lugs came off in a short time tells me they were probably all finger tight. Anyway, I fished my front tire out of a nearby field, jacked up the car, my first one, a 57 bel air, and moved along (after tightening up all the other wheels..) They never worked loose again, and it never crossed my mind to sue the guy. Ah, the good ol days.

[harpo231]

Originally Posted by harpo231

My lawyer son says yes but is very complicated.

As the seller of a vehicle you must get a document from DMV to CYA

[jocko]

it took me 5 minutes to realize you quoted yourself
What document would a seller get from the DMV? I've sold many, never had to get a document that would accomplish what we're talking about though. I sign the title, if both parties in TX, sign the 130 sheet, and fill out a bill of sale. Then when the buyer drives away, I do the release of liability online in case I just sold a getaway vehicle to bonnie & clyde.

[harpo231]

release of liability . helps to have an official hardcopy.

[Rich69shortfleet]

Originally Posted by weq92f

However... a personal friend of mine went to court and won against the seller of a Harley who didn't disclose a modification ( lowering ) that limited the bikes turning radius due to interference with the ground. My buddy crashed the bike and nearly died.

Kind of sad that he won in a way (sorry that he got hurt but I'm making a point here). If he wasn't aware of the capabilities of a modified vehicle before he swung a leg over it and drove away I'd think he AT LEAST should share in the liability.

But honestly, who designs a modified bike that can't take a reasonable corner without dragging the frame on the ground? (which is what I suspect was the problem) But then, who buys and rides one without knowing what it can and cannot do?

[In The Ten Ring]

When I sell anything, I tell the complete and total truth on everything I know or suspect about the item and why I know or suspect it. You will not find that sort of seller very often.

As soon as I read the comment (thanks for the link, I read that also) about the sued body shop I thought "I bet they used panel bond instead of welding" and I was right. I have a rusted quarter panel on my Honda Accord, a local body shop wants to use panel bond. I am not a fan but I understand the thin metal would be hard to weld without burning through.

I'm going to let them use panel bond to attach the replacement panel cut out (from a 1998 Accord). I'd prefer at least some plug welds also, we'll see.

When I took a welding course, the teacher warned me never weld a car frame for anyone due to liability.

[factorystock]

In the mid 70's, GM had a problem with the location of there gas tanks on there pickups. After serious explosions, GM was sued for bad design. Ford had a similar situation with there Pintos. I'm sure GM and Ford said they weren't responsible. But, they were the builders of the product that was claimed to be unsafe. Did I forget to mention the Corvair in the 60's? Again, we need to know exactly want went wrong to go any further.

[stevenfromtexas]

my .02 is not going to be very popular.....


if you build your own project (i.e. don't sent it off to be, painted, frame work, brake work, interior work, body work........on and on and on....)
theres nobody to sue if something happens. the guy that built your ride is already broke!!! you!!!

[Aberdare]

Originally Posted by stevenfromtexas

my .02 is not going to be very popular.....


if you build your own project (i.e. don't sent it off to be, painted, frame work, brake work, interior work, body work........on and on and on....)
theres nobody to sue if something happens. the guy that built your ride is already broke!!! you!!!

Well Said...
Abe

[Grumpy old man]

NOTHING WENT WRONG ! does anyone actually read the entire thread before posting ? This is a WHAT IF thread .

What if a handshake actually ment anything anymore ?

What if someone actually took responsibilities for their own actions ?

What if You actually had insurance to cover your own butt ?

[jim-bob]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

NOTHING WENT WRONG ! does anyone actually read the entire thread before posting ? This is a WHAT IF thread .

What if a handshake actually ment anything anymore ?

What if someone actually took responsibilities for their own actions ?

What if You actually had insurance to cover your own butt ?

Thanks Grump...you can tell by some of the replies that my thread was scanned quickly LOL

[In The Ten Ring]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

NOTHING WENT WRONG ! does anyone actually read the entire thread before posting ? This is a WHAT IF thread .

What if a handshake actually ment anything anymore ?

What if someone actually took responsibilities for their own actions ?

What if You actually had insurance to cover your own butt ?

I have renters sign a rental agreement before I allow them on the property. My check out rules are pretty complicated, things like "shut and lock the front door, turn off the lights, take out the trash," etc.

Most renters that fail to follow such rules seldom admit it.......the lack of personal responsibility is epidemic in USA. If a person can possibly put the blame onto someone else, we must expect they will do so.

One renter (after leaving the back door open when it was 15 degrees below zero and I couldn't get to the condo for 24 hours) actually told me on the phone "I don't care what I signed, I should be able to do whatever I want with your property."

I just wish I had taped it. That guy was in his 50's with small children. Imagine being broken down on the side of the road, no one around for miles, and he comes by and you have something he wants. He'll take it and kill you if he thinks he can get away with it.

[stevenfromtexas]

sorry..... look at my glasses AND my teeth....

i aint the goodest at reedin'

all is good guys.
Merry Christmas to you all and thank you to every one of you guys for the info you share!!

[jeffahart]

Of course we are just chiming in on the hypothetical and potentials for lawsuit. But if you build or modify vehicles for people; those people go out on the roads with expectations. Then it's on someone if the vehicle does not perform. And it's a good question. You see all these heavily modified vehicles on the road,and it's become a fad. The past chopper fad put the rider at risk. Look's like the jury will be out if people are maimed or worse by what could be blamed on excessive modifications.

Yes, we expect basic standards... the clutch pedal on the left and gas pedal on the right and so on. But what about the basic predictability of the vehicles performance? That comes into question once you modify frames, suspension, brakes and a bunch of other things. I argue that a good lawyer can make the case that a modified vehicle looked like a duck and quacked like a duck but that the buyer was duped when it didn't handle, brake and basically perform like a duck. And then, the water gets muddied and the lawyers argue. Yes, you are a fool if you don't have insurance and agreements. But they still don't stop lawyers trying to come after your bucks if your shop is successful. Success is a tricky thing, it CAN make people jealous, envious and sometimes downright spiteful.... but it WILL make you a target for every lawyer looking for a win if someone(doesn't even have to be you) fowls up; and that is the one sad truth.

OP asked about lawsuit... Here you go... I walked out of my house and felt discomfort, I'm a victim... who can I sue, possibly you!

[In The Ten Ring]

Originally Posted by jeffahart

Of course we are just chiming in on the hypothetical and potentials for lawsuit. But if you build or modify vehicles for people; those people go out on the roads with expectations. Then it's on someone if the vehicle does not perform. And it's a good question. You see all these heavily modified vehicles on the road,and it's become a fad. The past chopper fad put the rider at risk. Look's like the jury will be out if people are maimed or worse by what could be blamed on excessive modifications.

Yes, we expect basic standards... the clutch pedal on the left and gas pedal on the right and so on. But what about the basic predictability of the vehicles performance? That comes into question once you modify frames, suspension, brakes and a bunch of other things. I argue that a good lawyer can make the case that a modified vehicle looked like a duck and quacked like a duck but that the buyer was duped when it didn't handle, brake and basically perform like a duck. And then, the water gets muddied and the lawyers argue. Yes, you are a fool if you don't have insurance and agreements. But they still don't stop lawyers trying to come after your bucks if your shop is successful. Success is a tricky thing, it CAN make people jealous, envious and sometimes downright spiteful.... but it WILL make you a target for every lawyer looking for a win if someone(doesn't even have to be you) fowls up; and that is the one sad truth.

OP asked about lawsuit... Here you go... I walked out of my house and felt discomfort, I'm a victim... who can I sue, possibly you!

I know this much, power corrupts and lawyers have a lot of it. A friend became a lawyer, within three years his personally had radically changed, I no longer have contact with him. Very sad, we used to be very close.