SMOG LEGAL ENGINE SWAP TO LS yesterday passed!

[AJC]

Originally Posted by Steve Van Gent

ALSO; The transmission MUST be controlled by ECU to pass smog-I.E. must be from donor and be engine/trans as a pair.

What dose this mean for running a manual transmission? If the engine/trans donor has a manual trans it should be ok, or dose it have to be a computer controlled automatic? Also would that mean that only a 4.8 or 6.0 be used? As the 5.3 never came with a manual.

[kipps]

Originally Posted by AJC

What dose this mean for running a manual transmission? If the engine/trans donor has a manual trans it should be ok, or dose it have to be a computer controlled automatic? Also would that mean that only a 4.8 or 6.0 be used? As the 5.3 never came with a manual.

Presumably you're correct.

The original poster mentioned that the ECM coding had to be 100% stock in order to pass. Manual conversions require software tuning, otherwise they set the "check engine" light(another no-no) at a minimum.

[72c20customcamper]

WOW. Glad I live in NY (can't believe I just said that!) You can put anything you want in a pre 96 car. 95 and older are safety only inspections. But then again you don't see many 30 year old cars on the road except on a weekend in the summer. Buddy put a crate 454 in a 95 Camaro . Just a PCV valve with a carb .

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by kipps

Presumably you're correct.

The original poster mentioned that the ECM coding had to be 100% stock in order to pass. Manual conversions require software tuning, otherwise they set the "check engine" light(another no-no) at a minimum.

Look up a VIN in the donor engines' model year with a manual transmission. They were available on the GMT800 chassis trucks.
Then re-code the PCM with a J2534 passthrough ( I use a WiFi MDI clone ). You use that VIN with a single VIN license in the web applet at the AC Delco TDS web page. Program as a replacement PCM and it'll dutifully program your PCM with manual transmission parameters etc for that VIN.

[nekkidhillbilly]

the trans thing is crazy how the hell does that make a difference in emissions. fuel economy possibly if you kept say a th350 or 400 but emissions aren't going to change. I wonder how they deal with replacement engines on stock cars or say if this engine failed can you just swap in another 5.3? so many more things I wonder but im in ky so no point in me asking.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by nekkidhillbilly

the trans thing is crazy how the hell does that make a difference in emissions. fuel economy possibly if you kept say a th350 or 400 but emissions aren't going to change. I wonder how they deal with replacement engines on stock cars or say if this engine failed can you just swap in another 5.3? so many more things I wonder but im in ky so no point in me asking.

The PCM expects to get feedback from sensors in the automatic transmission.
If you have an LS with the ECM TCM setup the ECM expects to get feedback from the TCM.
If the ECM or PCM doesn't get feedback from the TCM or transmission in response to its' requests it gets lost. Some ECM/PCM will drop you into limp mode and others just plain freak out.

Harvey Hardway would brute force it with a tuning package. You run the risk of missing something minor that'll freak out the ECM/PCM in some obscure manner if you try to be Harvey Hardway.

The easiest way to handle running a manual transmission or an older automatic transmission on a modern engine is to program the PCM or ECM using a manual transmission vehicle VIN and then fine tune the settings with your tuning package.

The fuel and spark tables from a 3/4 or 1-ton truck may be advantageous as well.

[nekkidhillbilly]

Originally Posted by hatzie

The PCM expects to get feedback from sensors in the automatic transmission.
If you have an LS with the ECM TCM setup the ECM expects to get feedback from the TCM.
If the ECM or PCM doesn't get feedback from the TCM or transmission in response to its' requests it gets lost. Some ECM/PCM will drop you into limp mode and others just plain freak out.

Harvey Hardway would brute force it with a tuning package. You run the risk of missing something minor that'll freak out the ECM/PCM in some obscure manner if you try to be Harvey Hardway.

The easiest way to handle running a manual transmission or an older automatic transmission on a modern engine is to program the PCM or ECM using a manual transmission vehicle VIN and then fine tune the settings with your tuning package.

The fuel and spark tables from a 3/4 or 1-ton truck may be advantageous as well.

I get that but it still doesn't make sense it has to be original same with the motor. so if he used a 4l80e which is totally doable he would fail or used a 700r4 which also is doable would fail. he cant retune it from the sounds either and delete or reprogram these things to work with one another. even if the engine is not creating any more emissions than it would stock. so on that token I wonder if he could use a 4l65e instead of the 4l60e. not the stock set up but nothing has to be changed in the ecm. or if ran a 10 model that has a a separate tcm unit and the ecm is same manual or auto. I think cali is overkill.

[nekkidhillbilly]

I don't live in cali will never live in cali so I don't want to clutter up his thread only curious

[hatzie]

The peoples republic of California is run by the un-elected pencil pushers that have their little feifdoms for the benefit of the aforementioned pencil pushers.

What they do doesn't have to make sense. If you ask... it's because they say so.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by Steve Van Gent

Motor / power plant from donor Tahoe with all parts was $1500; All in was about $6000 including trans rebuild and all exhaust work, drive shaft, motor mounts, etc;

OEM fuel tank in truck. No change.

Just wanted to clarify because Im planning a swap in my 79 C10, are you using the OEM blazer tank or the OEM tank from your donor? My 79 has saddle tanks that Id like to reuse but I`ve also been thinking of swapping to a 87-91 Blazer tank to keep it simple with 1 tank.

[hatzie]

You can use the 87-91 saddle tanks with the baffles and senders with fuel pumps as high volume low pressure lift pumps and a fuel pump on the frame rail to push the pressure up to LS specs. You'll need to upgrade the NL2 dual tank valve to the motorized Pollack valve. The NL2 wiring and switch will need to be updated to the 1987-91 TBI setup using the fuel system power wire from the LS ECM in place of the same from the TBI ECM. This allows you to keep your 40 gallon capacity with two tanks.
The LS ECM should cut fuel pump power as soon as the engine stops so... as long as you're switching the fuel pump power with the ECM you don't need the oil pressure switch as a safety system.

The 1987-91 Emissions and Driveability books in my manuals thread have detailed information on how the power feed from the ECM feeds the fuel pump relay and the NL2 valve power. Look up the Dual tanks theory of operation thread for more information as well.

Several European and US automobiles use the in-tank HVLP lift pump to HP fuel pump scheme for fuel supply.

The TBI pumps will push significantly more volume GPH or GPM at lower restriction/pressure.

When tanks without baffles are your only option you can put a submersible LS fuel pressure pump in a slosh can with feed and return to-from the tanks and to-from the fuel rails. It's not needed with the 87-91 TBI fuel tanks.

[68c10owner]

Originally Posted by hatzie

You can use the 87-91 saddle tanks with the baffles and senders with fuel pumps as high volume low pressure lift pumps and a fuel pump on the frame rail to push the pressure up to LS specs. You'll need to upgrade the NL2 dual tank valve to the motorized Pollack valve. The NL2 wiring and switch will need to be updated to the 1987-91 TBI setup using the fuel system power wire from the LS ECM in place of the same from the TBI ECM. This allows you to keep your 40 gallon capacity with two tanks.
The LS ECM should cut fuel pump power as soon as the engine stops so... as long as you're switching the fuel pump power with the ECM you don't need the oil pressure switch as a safety system.

The 1987-91 Emissions and Driveability books in my manuals thread have detailed information on how the power feed from the ECM feeds the fuel pump relay and the NL2 valve power. Look up the Dual tanks theory of operation thread for more information as well.

Several European and US automobiles use the in-tank HVLP lift pump to HP fuel pump scheme for fuel supply.

The TBI pumps will push significantly more volume GPH or GPM at lower restriction/pressure.

When tanks without baffles are your only option you can put a submersible LS fuel pressure pump in a slosh can with feed and return to-from the tanks and to-from the fuel rails. It's not needed with the 87-91 TBI fuel tanks.

Thanks,great Info here. If I stick with the saddle tanks I will change them to the 1987 TBI tanks but I am also considering a blazer tank conversion. My main issue is making everything smog legal. I know they need a vapor pressure sensor or something like that. Figured swapping to a single tank would make things easier. The swb saddles are only 16 gallons each so I wouldn't be losing too much and rarely filled both tanks in previous trucks.

[hatzie]

Originally Posted by 68c10owner

Thanks,great Info here. If I stick with the saddle tanks I will change them to the 1987 TBI tanks but I am also considering a blazer tank conversion. My main issue is making everything smog legal. I know they need a vapor pressure sensor or something like that. Figured swapping to a single tank would make things easier. The swb saddles are only 16 gallons each so I wouldn't be losing too much and rarely filled both tanks in previous trucks.

The fuel tank pressure sensor is just like an old fashioned MAF sensor. You need a bung that it'll fit through tightly.

The rest of the LS version of the EVAP system is fairly simple. If you weren't in the Peoples Republic of California you could bypass the EVAP readiness test and plumb the less expensive components from the 1970's evap canister setup to the purge valve. It would work just as well as the LS system but your overlords have no doubt decreed you shall use the LS motor evap system or else... off with your head...

[mgchevyparts]

Originally Posted by Bloodhound

That is an impressive write up. I don't know how this hobby still exists in your state.

We generally do not mess with 1976 and newer vehicles due to smog laws.

[kwmech]

This is why I will not put an Ls in my '91 suburban. I'll go 383 or 400. They have no idea what's under the valve covers. As long as it passes visual and emissions I'm golden

[Ryan Hubbard]

Originally Posted by kwmech

This is why I will not put an Ls in my '91 suburban. I'll go 383 or 400. They have no idea what's under the valve covers. As long as it passes visual and emissions I'm golden

I was going to put the Erod in my 90 3/4T Suburban but found out there is a weight limit for the vehicle and my suburban is 1000 lbs over the weight limit for the Erod LS3.

[EricU]

Originally Posted by Ryan Hubbard

I was going to put the Erod in my 90 3/4T Suburban but found out there is a weight limit for the vehicle and my suburban is 1000 lbs over the weight limit for the Erod LS3.

I ran into the same thing as I had talked myself into just paying the extra monies for an E-rod. I had justified the LSA/8-speed version as it would outlast me for a weekender hot rod in my 2wd 89 C30 (R30). Then I missed a call back from my local (North SF Bay) smog ref who did mention on the voice mail;
1) no car engines (good bye plentiful Camaro 6.2/6L80e)
2) no "E-rod" conversions.

Then I found out about the class 1 (<6.5k GVWR), 2a (6k-8.5k) & 2b (8.5k - 10k)

My truck happens to be a non-CA R30 (1-ton dually C30 for 89) So, now I'm trying to figure out what more modern (but as said above "not too modern") trucks came with either a 6.0 or 6.2 along with a six speed automatic that will meet the GVWR criteria for the class 2b (8.5k-10k lbs GVWR).

I have another call into my local smog ref and hope to pin down some more info.

Though it doesn't help to whine about it, I am still amazed that I can't swap a much cleaner burning more modern engine/tranny and pull out the TBI 454, but "oh well". Funny thing is that it is the GVWR that is going to cost me a bunch of money and time and the only thing that I will tow is my woman and a couple of German Shepherds!!

[Corts60]

Very good write up! That takes some dedication to get it right! Thank you for posting OP.

[Rickysnickers]

EricU, what year is your truck?

[KQQL IT]

Praying this passes. Our 82 k5 would be 2000% easier

[EricU]

Originally Posted by Rickysnickers

EricU, what year is your truck?

Big ol booty'd 89 2wd R30 in the middle of getting an attitude adjustment.

[EricU]

Originally Posted by KQQL IT

Praying this passes. Our 82 k5 would be 2000% easier

If that passed in CA, the prices of 76-82 Squarebodys would jump!

But I don't think that it will happen this time. From the inner-web:
Legislation (AB 210) introduced in California to exempt motor vehicles manufactured prior to the 1983 model-year from the state’s biennial emissions inspection requirement failed to be considered prior to the legislative deadline for “two-year” bills. By rule, bills in California that are carried over from the previous year, also known as two-year bills, must be passed by January 31. Since this did not occur, the bill is dead for the legislative session.

[KQQL IT]

Originally Posted by EricU

If that passed in CA, the prices of 76-82 Squarebodys would jump!

And 73 -76 value would drop a bit.

And my power choices for this pos K5 would open up dramatically

[EricU]

Well my current plan is;
1) Wait to hear back from my local smog Ref to dial down exactly what my options are.
2) Hopefully find a compliant 2wd 6.0 or 6.2 with a six-speed automatic combo that fits in my GVWR window (8.5k - 10k) that I can start searching for a relatively low mileage one to purchase out of wrecking yard (how hard could that be???)
3) Get the OP Steve Van Gent, who is "only" three short hours north of me to come down for the weekends to help sort out the wiring BS.

[LT7A]

Dedicated work and great write-up. Nice job SVG.