Make it handle

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by 65Short

The JT drop is as follows - Front crossmember is raised 1 1/2", I notched the bottom of the frame and pushed the whole think up, then I had to notch in to the top side for oilpan clearance. I still think this was easier than the 'sectioned' crossmember plan.

Did you add anything to the top of the rail or box the section?

Thanks,
Jon

We did box the rails up front, but didn't put any bracing higher for the upper arm, other than fully welding themount to the top edge of the rail.

[Greywolf200]

[quote=robnolimit;4823820]

Originally Posted by Greywolf200

Yes, the tall spindles are "A" body, not truck, so, they aren't much help for us in hauler-land.
The JT drop is as follows - Front crossmember is raised 1 1/2", I notched the bottom of the frame and pushed the whole think up, then I had to notch in to the top side for oilpan clearance. I still think this was easier than the 'sectioned' crossmember plan. Next was 2 1/2 drop spindles, we use McGauphy's, I already had these. Finally, a spring that gave a 2" drop. These are a 3/4 t spring with 1 coil cut off, appx 1000 lb/in. (I posted up the spring info earlier, don't have it in front of me here) So, about 6" total drop, but rides like it is 2"drop. - nice. Out back, I cheated big time. I cut a notch ib the rail behnd the cab, and raised the rear rail 4" over the axle, then back down for the bumper. This took four cuts to do. This mod raised the upper coil mount, shock mounts, and panhard mount. Then I flipped and raised the front trailing arm mounts as high as I could, appx 5" higher than stock position. With a 2" spring, and a 2" block, that is 8" total rear drop. It thinks it is a 2" drop as far as spring travel is concerned. We did use our new design rear shock mounts, panhard bar, and sway bars. I have no ground clearance problems, and it drives great. Soon we are going to switch the rear to air, we need it to carry pallets to powdercoat and such, the drop springs can't carry much load. lol

WOW.....6/8.......Didn't realize you had gone that far. Will the details be in the Street Trucks series?

Thanks,

[robnolimit]

yes, all of the drop details are coming up in StreetTrucks. We're about to swap the rear to air ride, watch the build thread for updates. Also there is an upcoming story on the new Painless Wiring trans controler. This is a stand-alone controler for L460, L480, L465 trans, you can tune lock-up, shift points, OD shift........ also you can hold two seporate set-ups, and go from 'mild' to 'performance' with the flip of a switch. It's really a cool deal for trans swaps. Now you can use an electronic shift trans behind a carb smallblock.

[robnolimit]

If you have an idea, sooner or later you need to test it out to see if it works. Otherwise, it's just a guess of somekind. My Silver Bullit effie (don't hate on it) looses a bit of traction into and out of the corners, and thats something I've been working on. So, I had this idea. The panhard rod is a typical one. Urathane adjuster on one end, and a rod end on the other. Needless to say, it doesn't give much. I can fell the weight shift going into the corners and right as the wieght fully shifts over, the tires loose a bit of traction. So I started to think of ways to load the tire softly. I see these 'bisquit' torque rods that the dirt oval guys run, typically on the top link of a three link, to ease in the torque load on acceleration. Hmmm, could I use this on the panhard rod? Here is the Speedway torque rod next to my panhard rod.

[robnolimit]

As you can see, it's too short, and it has the wrong mount on one side. But the mechanics are there. The bisquit bushings allow the rod to get longer or shorter when pushed or pulled, softening the load. First I replaced the rod end next the bisquit housing with a urathane adjuster. This gave me the same mount style as the Panhard rod.

[robnolimit]

Last step, I used some tubing and inserts to make a rod that will match the panhard rod length and angles. Will this help? I'm not sure. This weekend I'm going to bolt it in and make sure it fits oK, then I'll put the panhrd rod back in. We are planning an outing next tuesday night to go to A.M.P. (our local track) and try it out. I'll run the first session with the panhard rod as usual, then swap to the bisquit rod and see what happens. Each session gets you six timed laps. I'll post all the times up for all to see. One things for sure, it'll either be faster, or it won't. Only time will tell. - get it? time? as in lap time?

[JNJchev77]

Makes sense...Seems like it could be a great idea! Worth a shot I think!

[Custom 68]

Rob this is amazing to watch you work with all this. Just reading your posts is like we are all there sort of bench racing. It makes me feel like part of the learning curve. Great work. Keep it up.
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[robnolimit]

Thanks a bunch. We're having a great time with this. After Columbus we are now hungrier than ever to go faster. You see, GoodGuys autocross is dominated by the Pro-touring croud, and, truck guys don't get much respect, - until you start beating them. In Columbus, the nations fastest showed up lookin for a fight, and they all wanted to win the top trophy. We won our class, but more impressive, we ran 9th fastest overall. The really fast cars are now within reach. here are some of them. Mary Pozzi, 10+ time national auto-x champ, ran a 32.595, 72 LS Camaro. Mark Stielow, last years Optima Invitational winner, ran 33.081, 69 LS Camaro. Brandy Morrow, 70 LS Camaro, Spectra Performance, ran 32.622 to win the vendor class. Jimmy Day, in the Optima Batteries 'One Lap' Camaro, LS 67 Camaro, ran 32.844, and Ryan Mathews, the weekends fastest from Detroit Speed, ran 32.955 in thier LS 63 Nova.
Our fast lap was 33.704. We have never been so close to the top tier. So, my goal, is to shave 1 full second. The typical GoodGuys coarse has 8 to 9 corners, and 9 to 10 straight sections. We are way under powered compared to the 'A' list cars, our 330 @ the tire to their 450+ average. We're working on that, with a new style injection. More tuning and tricks with the chassis will help in the corners. My goal, is to gain .05 seconds in each section, corners and straights. And, and this is the big one, not make any driver errors. ( lots of go-cart practice) .05 sec. over 18 sections, would gain .9 seconds, and would have placed us with a 32.805 lap, and 4th over all. Also, this would have scared the heck out of the Pro Touring crowd, and been a huge move for Truck lovers. The October GoodGuys in Texas is the next time we run against the 'A' listers, and we really hope to have a good showing. Thanks for the interest.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

Thanks a bunch. We're having a great time with this. After Columbus we are now hungrier than ever to go faster. You see, GoodGuys autocross is dominated by the Pro-touring croud, and, truck guys don't get much respect, - until you start beating them. In Columbus, the nations fastest showed up lookin for a fight, and they all wanted to win the top trophy. We won our class, but more impressive, we ran 9th fastest overall. The really fast cars are now within reach. here are some of them. Mary Pozzi, 10+ time national auto-x champ, ran a 32.595, 72 LS Camaro. Mark Stielow, last years Optima Invitational winner, ran 33.081, 69 LS Camaro. Brandy Morrow, 70 LS Camaro, Spectra Performance, ran 32.622 to win the vendor class. Jimmy Day, in the Optima Batteries 'One Lap' Camaro, LS 67 Camaro, ran 32.844, and Ryan Mathews, the weekends fastest from Detroit Speed, ran 32.955 in thier LS 63 Nova.
Our fast lap was 33.704. We have never been so close to the top tier. So, my goal, is to shave 1 full second. The typical GoodGuys coarse has 8 to 9 corners, and 9 to 10 straight sections. We are way under powered compared to the 'A' list cars, our 330 @ the tire to their 450+ average. We're working on that, with a new style injection. More tuning and tricks with the chassis will help in the corners. My goal, is to gain .05 seconds in each section, corners and straights. And, and this is the big one, not make any driver errors. ( lots of go-cart practice) .05 sec. over 18 sections, would gain .9 seconds, and would have placed us with a 32.805 lap, and 4th over all. Also, this would have scared the heck out of the Pro Touring crowd, and been a huge move for Truck lovers. The October GoodGuys in Texas is the next time we run against the 'A' listers, and we really hope to have a good showing. Thanks for the interest.

I missed your runs last year but enjoyed talking w/you after the show Sat night. I do not plan to miss them this year. Watching the Bullet in action is my priority!

[gringoloco]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I do not plan to miss them this year. Watching the Bullet in action is my priority!

x2

[SBTork]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

We have never been so close to the top tier. So, my goal, is to shave 1 full second. The typical GoodGuys coarse has 8 to 9 corners, and 9 to 10 straight sections. We are way under powered compared to the 'A' list cars, our 330 @ the tire to their 450+ average. We're working on that, with a new style injection. More tuning and tricks with the chassis will help in the corners. The October GoodGuys in Texas is the next time we run against the 'A' listers, and we really hope to have a good showing. Thanks for the interest.

I think that should be VERY do-able with a little more under the (transparent) hood. Can't wait to see where you guys wind up.

[robnolimit]

HAHA, it has a real hood on it these days. Over the weekend, i installed the new panhard rod, and drove it around. To be honest, I can't tell for sure if there is much difference. there aren't too many roads where I can stuff it in a corner the way you do on a track. It did feel slightly smoother if I hit a bump in a corner. So, I started looking for sweeping corners with a bump in them. Then I put the standard panhard bar back in, and hit the same bumps, and it was a little smoother with the torque arm rod. So, I'm ready to go testing tues night. We'll see what happens.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

HAHA, it has a real hood on it these days. Over the weekend, i installed the new panhard rod, and drove it around. To be honest, I can't tell for sure if there is much difference. there aren't too many roads where I can stuff it in a corner the way you do on a track. It did feel slightly smoother if I hit a bump in a corner. So, I started looking for sweeping corners with a bump in them. Then I put the standard panhard bar back in, and hit the same bumps, and it was a little smoother with the torque arm rod. So, I'm ready to go testing tues night. We'll see what happens.

I've seen those TAR's in my local roundy-round catalog & always wondered how they would fare in a street environment. But, I figured the solid/fixed dimension would be better suited & that the 'give' (if any) might actually make the 'bump in a corner' situation worse. It will be interesting to see the results.

[aggie91]

I saw your runs last year, but the crowd around you afterward was to large and my boys where hungry. Maybe this year I will get to meet you. I love seeing your truck run the autocross and get so close to the big "A" listers...

[Zoomin]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

I've seen those TAR's in my local roundy-round catalog & always wondered how they would fare in a street environment. But, I figured the solid/fixed dimension would be better suited & that the 'give' (if any) might actually make the 'bump in a corner' situation worse. It will be interesting to see the results.

Seems like one more place to have to tune to get the effect you want. As far as the added power goes, it would seem your brakes are going to be doing a lot more work as well. What changes do you your think will be necessary? A larger contact patch?

[robnolimit]

As brakes go, we're good. We are currently running Baer 14", 6 piston brakes on all four corners. I have swapped to a 1 1/8" master to get more pedal feel, as it was a bit grabby with a 1" master. I think we could use these brakes on the space shuttle. And yes, this is one more area to tune, which means we could get it wrong too. But right now it's just an idea we're going to try. If it works, great, and if not, at least we know.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by robnolimit

As brakes go, we're good. We are currently running Baer 14", 6 piston brakes on all four corners. I have swapped to a 1 1/8" master to get more pedal feel, as it was a bit grabby with a 1" master. I think we could use these brakes on the space shuttle.....

That's funny!

[gearheads78]

I always love seeing your truck run at gg events. That thing hauls ass in the curves.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by gearheads78

I always love seeing your truck run at gg events. That thing hauls ass in the curves.

Dang dude.... Haven't seen you anywhere lately. How life, wife, & kids?

[gearheads78]

Originally Posted by SCOTI

Dang dude.... Haven't seen you anywhere lately. How life, wife, & kids?

Without derailing the thread cliff notes

Built the new shop and got bent over with no lube lots of issues, way over budget and now broke and can't finish it yet. Twins born 3 weeks ago healthy boy and girl and I have forgotten what sleep is. PM me for more details. I hope to sneak up to Kellers one of these days again.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by gearheads78

Without derailing the thread cliff notes

Built the new shop and got bent over with no lube lots of issues, way over budget and now broke and can't finish it yet. Twins born 3 weeks ago healthy boy and girl and I have forgotten what sleep is. PM me for more details. I hope to sneak up to Kellers one of these days again.

Will do.....
[announcers voice] We now return the rest of you back to your regularly scheduled programming [/announcers voice] .

[CSGAS]

Originally Posted by Zoomin

Seems like one more place to have to tune to get the effect you want. As far as the added power goes, it would seem your brakes are going to be doing a lot more work as well. What changes do you your think will be necessary? A larger contact patch?

Imagine slapper bars on a leaf spring suspension first.

Now relate those to bars (Lakewood used to make some) that mounted solid at the front but slid along the tube.

Next imagine a spring that can be swapped out to adjust how firm or soft the "hit" is on that tube that slides, while the torque tries to wrap-up the leafs and that effort is diverted to transferring weight.

The bumpstop in that third link acts like a spring in a single Lakewood-style bar in the middle of the suspension. In a stock application, like Monzas/Camaros/Firebirds/ etc, the leafs are instead coils with one fixed-length trailing arm to locate each side. That's probably obvious to most members here. Instead of a bumpstop/spring, the stock applications have a bushing at the front mount--for much the same reasons our truck trailing arms do, and like Rob put back in his third-link to make a "soft-hit" panhard bar.

In racing, the front link is "solid"--sorta. Often the front floats. a system of chains and links like sway bars have are used to restrict the floating front location, making the hit softer still. It isn't always used--dirt cars are different from asphalt and even within the two a loose setup has different needs than a neutral or balanced setup.

Hopefully I oversimplified it enough that Rob will still sound like the genius he is, next to me. Good luck Rob, on the "soft-hit" panhard bar! I like the concept and wish I'd thought of it.

[robnolimit]

good explanation, thanks for the help. Sounds like you've done some oval racin. On to last night. Here was the test. Try to be consistent. 30 psi int the fronts, 22 psi in the rears. We started with our base shock set-up, and stayed with it. Everything else was set up nuetral. For the first session, from 6pm to 7:15pm, the sun was out, track was good. We ran with the OG bar. The six lap average was 49.57, with a high/low 1.41 sec. Then we put in the Flexi-bar, same set up, for the second session, 7:30 to 8:45pm. The sun was about down at the start, and it was getting dark. The air was cooler, but so is the track, and even though the track is lit, there's a few dark areas. The six lap average was 49.64, with the high/low of 1.21. So, maybe it's no real difference? But, we had set up a speed trap in the middle of a sweeping right hander at the end of the front straight. Average speed in session 1 was 39.47 mph, average speed in sesion 2 was 44.86 mph. Thats HUGE, so why slower lap times? At the end of the back straight is a 230 deg banked, decreasing raduis hairpin turn, it's challenging. With the Flexi-bar, the grip was really good here, then it would overpower the tire, and the truck would 'buck' to the side a little bit, then i would slow down to control it. Maybe I entered the corner too fast, But I do think I could have tuned that out with the rear shocks. - But, shock tuning wasn't part of the nights program. So, I'm not so sure there are big gains, but I'm not ready to give yup. The higher trap speed are too impressive. So, next week we'll go back, run two sessions with the flexi-bar, and tune with air pressure, shocks, and alignment, and see what we can get out of it. On a side note, we did take the JT out with us. It ran a 51.69 average, with a fast lap of 50.95. the high/low was 2.18. It's best running ever. We have installed a Painless Wiring trans controller, which helps with the lock up. Then we have changed the front alignment as follows, camber, -1/2deg. camber, +7 1/2 deg. toe out 1/8". the truck steers great, but it is a bit loose on corner exit. Mike says it's great to drive on the freeway, and in the hills around his house, better than a new truck.

[Jonboy]

Is there a link to the JT build? I saw it in classic trucks, but am really curious to see it. Hoping to do some budget friendly suspension on my '74 once it cools down a little here.