Rear Air Bags for Dummies

[N2TRUX]

Originally Posted by 66-PMD-GMC

This is the ride height "look" I am going for with the fat and sort of skinny look using the "old school" slotted wheels.
The back tires could be N50 15's. If you know what those are... you may be as old as I am... LOL

Yeah, unfortunately do we know what they are, several of us have owned a set or two.

To make your wife happy, I suggest you look at Ride Tech or AccuAir for your management system. Even a simple air suspension will benefit from having a electronic control system that sets ride, cruise and show heights automatically.

[66-PMD-GMC]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

Yeah, unfortunately do we know what they are, several of us have owned a set or two.

To make your wife happy, I suggest you look at Ride Tech or AccuAir for your management system. Even a simple air suspension will benefit from having a electronic control system that sets ride, cruise and show heights automatically.

Back in the 70's, the N50-15 was the biggest DOT street tire we could get.
Air shocks, shackels for leafs and over sized coils were the only way a guy could get those big fatties on the back on a budget.
We just got home and the rear tire choice is M/T Sportsman S/R, LT 29 x 15R15, Radial.
The front is M/T Sportsman S/R, LT 26 x 8R15, Radial.
I am looking for a control system for the air springs that is switch and dial free.
I want to set the ride height while building the suspension and thats it. Just like any factory air system.
I am also trying to find A arms that work with the factory cross member but when I search using webcrawler or google all I find are car application stuff.
I will use the factory A arms if I can't find an inexpensive alternative.
I will check into AccuAir stuff.

[N2TRUX]

Both the Ride Tech and Accuair systems can be set to ride height on start up.If your going to set a fairly low ride height, you want the ability to bump it up if you encounter a steep driveway,speed bump or other obstacle.

Those systems aren't cheap, but they are as close to a factory system as you will get.

[66-PMD-GMC]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

Both the Ride Tech and Accuair systems can be set to ride height on start up.If your going to set a fairly low ride height, you want the ability to bump it up if you encounter a steep driveway,speed bump or other obstacle.

Those systems aren't cheap, but they are as close to a factory system as you will get.

I am starting to get the idea that what I want doesn't exist.
I have the bottom of the front bumper 9-10 inches off the ground and the rear of this truck slightly higher. (wood blocks are in the spring locations)
I absolutely do not want this suspension to have ride adjustable controls.
It doesn't need them, they just aren't necessary for what it will be used for.
I have spent hours online and wasted a lot of gas driving to shops to find what I want and all I find are aftermarket systems that are just more than what I want to do and guys that finish every sentance with "know what I'm saying" trying to talk me into an adjustable $3000 system.
My first thought was to do coil over suspension on all four corners of this truck.
The "air ride" guys write about the smoothness and comfort of the ride and my wife's navigator is "air ride" and rides very nice on the freeway so I am sold on that system, but.....
I can't find a "system" that I can plug into the "bags", the system inflates the airsprings and that is it.... suspension set... drive down the road and forget it.. Just like a factory vehicle with factory "air suspension"...
Question is... does it exist or will I need to build it from scratch to get what I want?

[SCOTI]

RideTech or AccuAir have control systems that function just like the factory set-up; you'll only be using 1 part of the control options/functionality.

It really sounds like properly spec'd coils would do the job for you vs the bags.

[PBFAB.COM]

From what I have read, the conversation that you and I had, and what Dave told me regarding your conversation, the best bet would be to use the air bags on a simple schrader system with remote fill for now. You set it where you want it, it stays there, and can be tuned and adjusted with a shop compressor. A little bit of testing and tuning will get it right where you want it. If for some reason you ever get the itch to go with a higher end air management, or build your own set up specific to your goals, you can just plug it in.

My guess is that you and your wife will be perfectly content with the simple, inexpensive, and effective schraders.
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[N2TRUX]

66-PMD-GMC I understand what your saying about set it and forget it, but your missing the point. The factory system is great on a stock height vehicle. I have owned 3 of them so I know exactly what your talking about.

What your forgetting is your wanting to lower the truck well below stock ride height. As Nate suggested, you might be fine with a simple non adjustable system. My thoughts are your going to be lower than average and you will need some ability to adjust it for certain situations.

[66-PMD-GMC]

Actually, I had that idea about using 4 schrader valves when I was out there trying to figure out what to do to make this all more simple.
I was stuffing way too much tire under the truck and trying to do it inexpensively and then started to go overboard on the suspension. All to save money on tires that would slip under the truck.
I want to stay with air springs because I want to learn about them and incorporate them into my own build, my 63 GMC pro-street.
So springs would work Scoti but this truck is going to be a "Chic's truck" so to speak and I am looking full on comfort.
I was going to do a ladder suspension and then a 'vette rear end and then common sense soaked through my all too thick skull.
Stock suspension in the rear for the most part, the mod's other than air springs will be a sway bar and longer pan-hard bar.
The front will stay stock other than air springs and the 1 1/4" sway bar.
My wife's 63 will be a simple enough truck that I want to perform better than stock suspension wise and have the smooth vibration dampening effect that air springs have for long hauls like the hot rod tour that is done every year.
Power steering, power brakes, A/C and an automatic transmission are all on the list of to do's.
OH! and I want to go on record saying that Porterbuilt is a first class shop and nobody ended their sentences with "know what I mean".... And they even comb their hair! LOL
I would work there... it's a nice shop..

[66-PMD-GMC]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

66-PMD-GMC I understand what your saying about set it and forget it, but your missing the point. The factory system is great on a stock height vehicle. I have owned 3 of them so I know exactly what your talking about.
What your forgetting is your wanting to lower the truck well below stock ride height. As Nate suggested, you might be fine with a simple non adjustable system. My thoughts are your going to be lower than average and you will need some ability to adjust it for certain situations.

This is odd.
I do get your point but what I must be missing is what the ride height is stock.
With a Pontiac motor sitting on the frame and a TH400 behind that and the sheet metal mocked up, bumper and all etc.. etc.., springs installed the bottom of the bumper sat 13" and a bit off the ground. The rear has tons of space between the frame and axle tube.
The centerline of the front drum/hub is 13" off the ground to simulate a 26" front tire and the rear is at 14 1/2" to simulate the rear. I didn't think the truck was much more than 3 inch's below stock height for a 1/2 ton.
Am I off that much??
I appreciate your and everyones input so please don't take it wrong. My wife wouldn't know what to do with those controls anyway. LOL

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by 66-PMD-GMC

OH! and I want to go on record saying that Porterbuilt is a first class shop and nobody ended their sentences with "know what I mean".... And they even comb their hair! LOL
I would work there... it's a nice shop..

I was going to add that phrase to the end of my last post... but being that you don't know me very well yet, I didn't want it to be interpreted the wrong way!.... Know what I mean?! LOL

[66-PMD-GMC]

You see? I cant even get it right... it's "know what I'm sayin?"
Frankly, I'm not sure WHAT kids are "sayin" these days...
Sux being old.... LOL

[N2TRUX]

66-PMD-GMC ok, maybe I didn't read everything well enough. From the rendering I felt you were trying to set a lower ride height. You might not need anything adjustable at that height.

Now I will play devils advocate with our resident expert. I do not agree with using a schrader valve system for the "front" especially with your wife being the primary driver. In the event of a leak or failure, the front will air out completely and could render the truck unsafe due to lack of steering or completely inoperable.

That set up is fine for the rear since a failure would only create a rough ride home. I strongly urge you to consider a simple paddle valve system if your going to bag all four corners.

[PBFAB.COM]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

Now I will play devils advocate with our resident expert. I do not agree with using a schrader valve system for the "front" especially with your wife being the primary driver. In the event of a leak or failure, the front will air out completely and could render the truck unsafe due to lack of steering or completely inoperable.

Since we all know the wife is driving the truck.... a bumpstop would be MANDATORY to limit the drop of the front suspension in case of a failure/catastrophic leak.

One thing I gathered from all the information at hand, is that he doesn't want to drop much cash on a system, and doesn't care to make it adjustable "on demand" for now.

Schrader is the best solution to get it rolling and allow for an upgrade later. A simple schrader is an excellent solution. On all air suspension installs (adjustable suspension systems period), there is common sense that needs to be exercised when planning for the worst case scenario.

Nate

[66-PMD-GMC]

Originally Posted by N2TRUX

66-PMD-GMC ok, maybe I didn't read everything well enough. From the rendering I felt you were trying to set a lower ride height. You might not need anything adjustable at that height.

Originally Posted by porterbuilt

Since we all know the wife is driving the truck.... a bumpstop would be MANDATORY to limit the drop of the front suspension in case of a failure/catastrophic leak.

One thing I gathered from all the information at hand, is that he doesn't want to drop much cash on a system, and doesn't care to make it adjustable "on demand" for now.

Schrader is the best solution to get it rolling and allow for an upgrade later. A simple schrader is an excellent solution. On all air suspension installs (adjustable suspension systems period), there is common sense that needs to be exercised when planning for the worst case scenario.

Nate

Glad to see I wasn't off on my thinking here on this truck. For a minute I thought I was missing something in regard to ride height.

I started this thread in hopes to avoid expensive mistakes and to build a learning curve.
My system control choices aren't about cost necessarily, I want to find a system that mirrors my "vision" for this truck. If I use one of the expensive control systems I have seen so far chances are good I wouldn't use most of the features so it would be a waste of money.
While the schraders will get me "in the ball park" for setting up the suspension, I wouldn't drive on it. I am not into "good for now".
I want to find a way to do what I want to do.
My wife is excited that I will be building her a "Luxury" truck and that's what it will be, all about creature comfort.
As far as stock systems go, from what I have learned so far, there are some sort of leveling sensors that add pressure as load increases.
I need to figure out how that is done.
I also need to know how far from being topped out the bags need to be. Or maybe the leveling sensors take car of that. Still not sure. The "all out" systems like Porterbuilt produces are obviously a different animal all together.
The Escalade system I looked at last night looks like high tech air shocks to me.
Kind of cheesy really but I am a "newbie" to all of this "air system" stuff.
Since I simplified the tire/wheel issue I was able to keep the suspension mods simple.

[66-PMD-GMC]

So here is what I have found in my free time since yesterday.

Ridetech sells a E3 4 way control system that has a digital readout that is fairly inexpensive.
(inexpensive being a relative term)

I know, ....... it is WAY more system than what I am looking for but there is, and I am sure of this, no stand alone system that is not fully adjustable.

Most factory "air ride" systems are incorporated into the vehicles ECM so robbing one off of an Escalade or Navigator is probably not going to happen.

The other thing I found out is that I need 4 ride heights sensors and it is a good idea to incorporate pressure sensors too.

I think ridetechs air spring/bracket price is a bit high but if I can't find something comparable that will be a direct bolt on to the stock front suspension I may have to buy those from them too.

This is all information that is readily available IF one knows where to look.

[mikey882]

I agree 100% with what Mr. Porterbuilt has said and recommended........

Also.......I would pass on the Ride Tech parts. They are a bit over priced in my opinion and most of their parts have been surpassed in fit, form, and function by those from other companies.

Check out AccuAir! They have some incredibly cool technology in their air management systems......from touch sensitive controllers, to modular mounting systems, they also have sensors (just like the factory sensors you spoke of). You can install them so that the AccuAir system can monitor the suspension positioning and maintain a preset entered by you.

This means that you would could slam the truck or lift it on demand.......but the main point I'm trying to make is that the ride height sensors and AccuAir management system also allows you to have a much more "hands-off" experience in regards to adjusting the suspension and ride height. You make a few presets and you're done.
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[66-PMD-GMC]

I finally found the photo I was looking for to show how I want this truck to sit. Well almost. I want the rear slightly higher than the truck in the photo but the front exactly like the photo. I also want to loose the "broke back" look. Not sure is it is just the photo or if the cab and bed "sink" where they meet on this truck.
Going to go for the 4 bag setup from Porterbuilt with schaders for the time being.
Will add the "management system" before she goes on the road. I hope to learn more about all of this by then..
My concern at the moment is that the airsprings can handle the weight of the Pontiac (slightly less than a BBC by a couple pounds) and the TH2004R automatic.
I am sure they will support them for a time but what will the lifespan be?
Again... and I keep saying this,,, I am new to "air springs"

[Pro Performance]

I think that truck has a nice stance, and the Porterbuilt is the way to go.

[SCOTI]

Originally Posted by 66-PMD-GMC

I finally found the photo I was looking for to show how I want this truck to sit. Well almost. I want the rear slightly higher than the truck in the photo but the front exactly like the photo. I also want to loose the "broke back" look. Not sure is it is just the photo or if the cab and bed "sink" where they meet on this truck.
Going to go for the 4 bag setup from Porterbuilt with schaders for the time being.
Will add the "management system" before she goes on the road. I hope to learn more about all of this by then..
My concern at the moment is that the airsprings can handle the weight of the Pontiac (slightly less than a BBC by a couple pounds) and the TH2004R automatic.
I am sure they will support them for a time but what will the lifespan be?
Again... and I keep saying this,,, I am new to "air springs"

No problems for the correct bag to support your weight requirements just like a coil spring. Rubber does have a life span just like coil steel can sag over time. You might have to replace them after 10-15yrs of regular service.... might.

[mikey882]

I don't mean to awaken this thread after two weeks.......but I wanted to say that i have run a set of bags for 8 years on a daily driver.....and that was through a few chicago winters!

I have had huge success with contitech and Slam Specialties bags.

I recently did an install on a friends 64 Coupe DeVille and he wanted to try out the newer AirLift Dominator bags. I was open to try another name brand bag and they actually work very well.

And that is in a car that easily outweighs your truck.

We took it to Torquefest in Iowa earlier in May. 300 mile trip. No issues.
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[66-PMD-GMC]

I am still fiddling with this truck.
I should have the frame ready to do a final assembly soon and I have taken some photos.
Going back and forth on tire/wheel.
Same with fleet or step bed.
Even second guessing myself on the engine... 350 Pontiac mill or a 326 and shoot for ultimate milage....
I figure if I get the chassis done and the suspension complete, I will just make those decisions and live with them..
BTW.. I am attempting to build my own control for the air springs so we'll see...

[mikey882]

I always wanted to try something with ball valves, check valves, and some pressure regulators. I know it would be a cobbled together rig......but it would be just to experiment. Not for a driver.

Have you thought about the possibility of installing a pair of dual needle gauges and some manual paddle valves?

That might complicate things for you more than you want......but I wanted to suggest it.

I know that I wouldn't wanna crawl around to fill schraders.......and I'm a gray haired 30 year old with a bad back.......

You could keep a small air tank in the truck that you could refill at any time with your home compressor. That tank could feed 4 manual valves for you to adjust the bags while you and/or her are in the truck......and if you want a more dependable way of keeping track of your settings then you could run a pair of dual needle gauges or a set of 4 cheaper single needle gauges.
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[66-PMD-GMC]

Originally Posted by mikey882

I always wanted to try something with ball valves, check valves, and some pressure regulators. I know it would be a cobbled together rig......but it would be just to experiment. Not for a driver.

Have you thought about the possibility of installing a pair of dual needle gauges and some manual paddle valves?

That might complicate things for you more than you want......but I wanted to suggest it.

I know that I wouldn't wanna crawl around to fill schraders.......and I'm a gray haired 30 year old with a bad back.......

You could keep a small air tank in the truck that you could refill at any time with your home compressor. That tank could feed 4 manual valves for you to adjust the bags while you and/or her are in the truck......and if you want a more dependable way of keeping track of your settings then you could run a pair of dual needle gauges or a set of 4 cheaper single needle gauges.
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I ran and repaired CNC equipment for a good number of years and I learned a lot about air actuation.
I am using height and pressure sensors back to solenoids. Check valves on the supply side of the solenoids and a pressure regulator at the pump source.
It's a bench top project now and when I am confident I have all the bugs worked out I am going to retrofit it to the chassis.
I crossed the half century mark and am mostly grey, back is useless...

[chad64chevy]

a 5.3L is the gm ls 327, the ls 5.7 is a 346, with the ls motors its very eassy to do with just swapping the cam, heads,intake,throttle body,and fuel injectors!

[66-PMD-GMC]

Originally Posted by chad64chevy

a 5.3L is the gm ls 327, the ls 5.7 is a 346, with the ls motors its very eassy to do with just swapping the cam, heads,intake,throttle body,and fuel injectors!

That is cool Chad64chevy..
I have learned a little bit about the LS motors recently and they are cool and all but I run Pontiac...