Make it handle

[Mike Bradbury]

Rob,
Can you let me know what the sway bar you are working on will fit? Is it going to be universal for varied suspension set-ups or is it strictly for the Chevy axle and stock truck arms?
I have build a unique set up and have been looking for an unsprung set up that does not require me welding anything on my powder coated and straightened Lincoln 9". I could fab a bracket to fit on the trailing arm bracket to match up to what ever sway bar I can find or if yours will work on this set up let me know.
Also does the bends in a sway bar affect its performance? I have seen some crazy shapes that look like a bent up coat hanger and I wonder if the straighter it is the better it performs?

[robnolimit]

Looks like a good set up. Yes, our new bar will work, no problem. There are two plates that slide between the arm and block, they provide the lower link mounting point.
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[robnolimit]

We are now in Texas, at the GoodGuys show. Check in to our Facebook page (no lilim engineering) for updates all weekend.
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[NPilot1975]

Rob, in redoing the rear of my frame, I am thinking of shortening it 11" and make a unibody out of it. This would give me 105.5" with the dropmember in the front. Will I be giving anything up with the wheelbase? Also in reinforcing 2"x4"x.120" tubular steel for the frame, could I cut 1/8" steel plates and put them inside the joints, drill holes through the outside and plug weld them or would I be better off reinforcing on the outside of the joints. Thanx again.
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[72k5zl1]

hey rob,
heres another way. i did this this spring. been sidetracked on to many other projects. just checked in for some motovation. thanks, looks great.

Originally Posted by robnolimit

4. Cut 3 - -, AGAIN, In the Center of the factory bend down, Cuts 3 & 4 will be opened up more to get the rails back down to the original height. Make Cut # 3, loosen the clamps, and drop the rear until a 1 5/8" spacer fits in. Check your level Side/Side in the rear and tack in.
Attachment 801402



Cut 4 - -Make these two cuts, and lift the rear rails until level. Check the height to the floor. If the height is back to O.E., fit in the 1 5/8" spacers and tack in. If not, Adjust the # 3, # 4 spacers. Shorter spacers lift the rear, longer spacers lower it. The rear section should be level and at the stock height when done. Take your time....... this effects the bed, fit later. Fab fishplates (fit inside) First, I use 1/2" holes to plug weld. Then, fab and fit in side inserts. When everything is tacked, check all levels again, then weld up




Attachment 801403

[Mike Bradbury]

That is a very creative way to notch the frame, I like the frame jig. Being a welding instructor, I am always encouraging my students to have complete joint penetration by beveling the joints. I am a firm believer that if your welds are sound you do not need a fish plate and you can still get a good nights sleep. Although fish plates are a good idea to make it bullet proof if your not confident in your welds, but I think the frame looks so much better with out them. The 70S wire in the MIG set up is stronger than the parent metal of the frame rail, I have done many destructive bend test with both MIG and TIG single pass weld joints and the weld performs nicely with out breaking at 25 ton. Conversely I have also done many tests on students welds they claimed they knew what they were doing and then watch it break along the joint line under 3 ton of pressure.

[ItsRandy]

Hey Rob, any chance the rear sway bar for 67 - 72 Chevy truck is available yet? I sure would like one like the one you have on your shop truck.

[robnolimit]

fronts are in stock now, and the rears are done and out of prototype and testing, production rear bars are due in right after SEMA (nov 5th)

[69gmcc10]

Rob, I really appreciate this thread and everything you contribute to c10s and this forum. I have another question for you (thanks for answering my previous one), I don’t really want to lower the front of my truck 2.5”, I was looking for more of a 1” or 1.5” drop. Would it be best from a handling standpoint to do a drop member on a stock height spindle, cut ½ of a coil out or be a real man and just buy drop spindles?

[bo-w]

awsome thread all and rob great insight on chassis and suspension. Do you all ever run in the sacramento area or reno? i Have to come watch you're truck stomp some sports cars.

[Greywolf200]

Hi Rob, enjoyed the bio in Street Trucks this month. Quick question, what is the problem with wheel spacers? Breakage or? Was wondering about using late model wheels on my '70.

Thanks, Jack Byrd

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by 69gmcc10

Rob, I really appreciate this thread and everything you contribute to c10s and this forum. I have another question for you (thanks for answering my previous one), I don’t really want to lower the front of my truck 2.5”, I was looking for more of a 1” or 1.5” drop. Would it be best from a handling standpoint to do a drop member on a stock height spindle, cut ½ of a coil out or be a real man and just buy drop spindles?

If you only want 1 1/2" or so, use the 3/4 ton spring, and cut 1/2 a coil.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by bo-w

awsome thread all and rob great insight on chassis and suspension. Do you all ever run in the sacramento area or reno? i Have to come watch you're truck stomp some sports cars.

Thanks, well, we'll be in Pleasonton in Nov for the goodGuys show, come out and check it out, it's a fun show.

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by Greywolf200

Hi Rob, enjoyed the bio in Street Trucks this month. Quick question, what is the problem with wheel spacers? Breakage or? Was wondering about using late model wheels on my '70.

Thanks, Jack Byrd

Thanks, you can thank Tina and Michelle for getting them all the info. QUALITY wheel spacers are OK, cnc machined billit with good quality studs. Use anti-sieze and torque to spec. Our off-road buddy's use these to tune rear track width, and they can run 400 or 500 mile races with no problems. But, spacer rings, and cast spacers/adapters are BAD, BAD, BAD.

[aggie91]

My son and I are building a truck for him right now to drive when he is 16. We have been following this thread and the JT thread (am mag articles). We are going to do the front like the JT. It is an '82. For the rear we are thinking about a flip kit and C-notch.

What else would you do for the rear to handle better and not cost a ton of money? What type of sway bar? Bushing in the spring eye?

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by aggie91

My son and I are building a truck for him right now to drive when he is 16. We have been following this thread and the JT thread (am mag articles). We are going to do the front like the JT. It is an '82. For the rear we are thinking about a flip kit and C-notch.

What else would you do for the rear to handle better and not cost a ton of money? What type of sway bar? Bushing in the spring eye?

Should be a cool build. Pushing the front crossmember up 1 1/2" is a big plus. That solves the biggest problem with these trucks, the low hanging crossmember/arms.
Suare body's are easy builds. Don't over complicate it. IF it NEEDS new spring bushings, then use urathane. Otherwise, put it together. The tire will give up befor the bushing flex in an issue. Flip kit is good, use a C notch also. add in a Helwig rear bar, 1", I know, I'm not making any money here, but this will work great. Last, try the bilstien shocks.

[aggie91]

Thanks Rob.

The truck was sitting up for a long time. The bushings look dry and very cracked. We are going to pull the spring packs apart and clean up the leaves and paint them before going back together.

How do you feel about clamping the front half of the spring pack to help avoid wheel hop? Would that adversely effect the handling in corners?

[BustedTruck]

Lots of great information in this thread. Thanks Rob for taking your time & sharing some very valuable information. I read this thread multiple times & will have to read it many more times trying to get it all to stick. Thanks again Rob.

[robnolimit]

Lots of thread postings lately discussing the mounting point of trailing arms. The hieght of the pivit mount determines the "rate of rise" or "anti-squat" transfered to the rear tires. There is some disussion on wheather to raise or lower the pivit point for better handling/traction... This also may effect pinion angle, So, lets have a look.
Pinion angle If you are working on a truck with an existing rear axle, (most are) and it is stock height, then the pinion angle is set to factory spec. If you lower the truck 4", the pinion angle will decrease appx 3 deg. Raising the front pivit point of the trailing arm 4" will restore the pinion angle to it's orig. spec. As a note, It would be ideal for the pinion to be parallel to the crank/trans center line.
Anti-Squat Is heigher better? - maybe. It's all a trade off. lets start with some basic driving info. If a car/truck has "Oversteer", then when you go through a turn, the front will turn in, and the rear may tend to get a bit loose and rotate out, loosing traction. The truck is turned MORE than the input from the steering, = "Oversteer", or "LOOSE". Now, if the car/truck has "Understeer", then, when you turn the wheels in, the truck will not respond as quickly. The rear has great traction, and "PUSHES" the front straight. In this instance, the truck turns LESS than the steering input. It has "UNDERSTEER", or a "PUSH". Somewhere in th middle is a balance. If we take the front suspension out of the equation for a moment, to see how the rear can effect steering, we could say this. - More traction = push. Less traction = Loose. more traction is better, right? Maybe not if your in a corner. If you aretrying to get through a corner at speed, and the front "pushes" you have no choice but to get off the throttle, on the brake, and slow down enough to get the truck to turn. This is the slow way around. If the truck is "loose", you can use the throttle to help steer through the corner, as long as your not to heavy footed.
So, back to production based Chevys. Most trucks push a lot if you drive them hard. The weight imbalance (nose heavy) tends to make then "push" into a corner, and get "loose" on the way out. Since it is easier to drive with a bit of a loose condition, and most of us are dealing with existing axle housings, I tend to recomend raising the pivit point. Now, if it was a truck mostly for drag/straight line fun, then I would leave it low, and use a wedge shim to fix the pinion angle. Some companies, like Hotchkis, have a front trailing arm mount with multiple mount points. Realisticaly, you would need to check the pinion angle at each setting to get a true comparison. Also, Horsepower comes into the discussion. As we add Hp, traction goes away, So it is fair to say that a truck with big Hp may benefit from a slightly lower pivit point. On our "Silver Bullit", we have moved the front many times. The goal is to have as much traction as we can get, up to the point that it has a push, then we back off a bit, keeping it just to the loose side.

[NPilot1975]

Rob, do your front trailing arm mounts (uniballs?) fit in the stock trailing arm brackets?
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[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by NPilot1975

Rob, do your front trailing arm mounts (uniballs?) fit in the stock trailing arm brackets?
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No, our 'Monster ball' adjusters use a 9/16" through bolt, and are 2 5/8" wide. If you thinking about building adjustable arms, you will need to fab new front mounts as well.

[BMERDOC]

Whew, sat down for several hours, determined to read this entire thread! I started a thread on modernizing the basic alignment angles and now it looks like I may have to back pedal on a couple of things I thought to be true. Seeing some of the simple upgrades here looks like I'm gonna be busy! Thanks Rob for all the info, drawings and tips!

[robnolimit]

Originally Posted by BMERDOC

Whew, sat down for several hours, determined to read this entire thread! I started a thread on modernizing the basic alignment angles and now it looks like I may have to back pedal on a couple of things I thought to be true. Seeing some of the simple upgrades here looks like I'm gonna be busy! Thanks Rob for all the info, drawings and tips!

Hey Doc. I read over your alignment posting this morning. It got me thinking. I like the comment about toe out, keeping the front steering tight. While this is true, I never thought of it that way. I always used toe toe balance the acreman during initial turn in. Your concept/comment is right on. With slight toe out, the outside tire, the one you get all the feedback from, will never 'slack-up' while transitioning into the corner. Thanks for the great input. Keep it up.

[BMERDOC]

And your comments on Toe got me thinkin too. Thats what I meant when I said I needed to back pedal. Ive got to clean that section up.

I have some questions for you regarding the stock LCAs that were done in this thread and JT's thread. Uortunatley, I'm at work and only had time to take a peek.

[Hotchkis]

Originally Posted by NPilot1975

Rob, do your front trailing arm mounts (uniballs?) fit in the stock trailing arm brackets?
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NPilot1975 – The trailing arm front brackets we offer work with the stock trailing arms and give 4 adjustment holes for tuning pinion angle and traction for improved handling.

Hotchkis Sport Suspension ULTIMATE C-10 Pickup...