The Great Critter Revival ‘09

[Thealien]

Shop and engine looking good. No looking back now!

[Jtrux]

Sexy!

[1956cameo]

I would say do the body work first simply because of the fact you will be more motivated to get all of the other jobs done when you have a cherry, near paint ready body waiting for you. Tough decision though.

[Wasted Income]

I am not sure that you will be happy with a 4L65E for that rig. If you are gonna mod that 6.0 at all, or have big ol tires on the other end, that 65 won't last long. If you haven't spent the coin on a trans yet, do yourself a favor and step up to a 4L80E and don't look back

Looking forward to the pics of the metal-work. Mine is about ready for some plasma/welder love.

[Critter]

Originally Posted by Wasted Income

I am not sure that you will be happy with a 4L65E for that rig. If you are gonna mod that 6.0 at all, or have big ol tires on the other end, that 65 won't last long. If you haven't spent the coin on a trans yet, do yourself a favor and step up to a 4L80E and don't look back

I went back and forth on this quite a bit. I was worried that the 4L65e wouldn't be strong enough then two things popped into my head. Overall length, and Hummer H2s.

The overall length of the 4L80e is such that even with the engine moved forward a few inches my NP205 shifter would have to be moved back in between my seats, or at least down to the edge of the center hump. I didn't like that.

Next was the H2s. Up until 2006-2007 (I forget exactly) they had an LQ4 with 325 HP in front of a 4L65e with 35 inch tall tires from the factory and they seem to hold up fine. Hell, half the time you see them lifted with bigger tires, etc. This is basically the exact drive train I plan to put together and I won't be doing any heavy off-roading or anything to push it to the limit. In addition you had other vehicles like the Denalis and Silverado 1500HDs with the same set up. From there we had some of the LQ9 engines (345 HP) in front of the 4L65e like the older Escalade all wheel drive, Vortec Max and Silverado SS. Over the last couple years most of these vehicles have moved on to some form of the 6.2L engine with a 6L90e tranny, but for 7 or 8 years the LQ4/4L65e held up fine. That being said, I 100% agree that the 4L80e would be stronger, but when considering the extra cost, length, weight, parasitic power loss, etc, I'm gonna go with the 65 and take my chances.

One last thing, I of course plan to rebuild the 4L65e to the strongest measure reasonably possible to help my chances.

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by Critter

The overall length of the 4L80e is such that even with the engine moved forward a few inches my NP205 shifter would have to be moved back in between my seats, or at least down to the edge of the center hump. I didn't like that.

Really? Hmm, because when I swapped from a 2wd 4L60E (same exact case as a 65E) to an 4L80E, I didn't have to change anything except the trans x-member mounting location. The overall length was exactly the same. I used my same exact driveshaft with no modification.

Originally Posted by Critter

Next was the H2s. ...they had an LQ4 with 325 HP in front of a 4L65e with 35 inch tall tires from the factory and they seem to hold up fine. In addition you had other vehicles like the Denalis and Silverado 1500HDs with the same set up. From there we had some of the LQ9 engines (345 HP) in front of the 4L65e like the older Escalade all wheel drive, Vortec Max and Silverado SS. Over the last couple years most of these vehicles have moved on to some form of the 6.2L engine with a 6L90e tranny, but for 7 or 8 years the LQ4/4L65e held up fine.

Actually the H2s, Escalades, Denalis, Vortec Max, and Silverado SS' all had the 345 horse LQ9 backed by a 4L65E. The 1500HDs had the LQ4 backed by a 4L80E.

The 65E is barely adequate in those vehicles listed above when left bone stock, with the GM torque management in the ECM left at the stock settings. Once you mod your 6.0, or throw a tune at it with reduced/removed TQ management, or get extreme with the tire size, all bets are off.

Originally Posted by Critter

This is basically the exact drive train I plan to put together and I won't be doing any heavy off-roading or anything to push it to the limit.

If that is indeed true, and you leave the stock tune in it, it will probably live for awhile, but your comments about building the 65E lead me to believe otherwise

Just remember that a stock 4L80E is stronger than a built 4L65E. Have you priced the "bulletproof" hard parts for a 65E? If so, the cost argument just went out the window.

Not trying to piss in your cheerios, but I've been there with both transmissions. I've come to the conclusion that it's cheaper to do it right once than to do it over Every truck i've ever owned with a 60E/65E has **** the bed relatively soon. I've been trying to kill the bone stock 80E in my 69 and it won't die. Not even with repeated abuse at 500 rwhp and slicks.

Regardless, it sounds like you've thought it thru, and you have a game plan.
Can't wait to see your project come together

[Thealien]

If you really want a 4L65 to hold up to anything you can throw at it I would
Check out this thread, read all the way through looking at the attention to detail!. Now I didn't go that way and wish I did. Needing the output shaft changed you have to competely dissasemble the transmission anyway. I had a tranny guy do that and the sunshell upgrade for $325. But I bought a low mileage 4L60 for $800. I hope it holds up. If not I will definately send mine to Finish Line! They are building these transmissions for cars in the 600 HP range drag racing. Spend some time at LS1tech as there are a bunch of guys running their transmission.

Now FLT charges a $400 core but many times run a free shipping special and or 10% off for LS1 members. A transmission from them can run you $2-3000 depending what level you go with so it is 2-3 times what I have into mine right now. But if mine doesn't last I will have wasted 1/2 my purchase price (I'll have a core now so I would save $400 of the $800 I spent) And the $325 I paid a local transmission guy for the output shaft would be a loss?

If I wasn't so cash strapped I would just send mine to them anyway!

[Thealien]

Originally Posted by Wasted Income

Really? Hmm, because when I swapped from a 2wd 4L60E (same exact case as a 65E) to an 4L80E, I didn't have to change anything except the trans x-member mounting location. The overall length was exactly the same. I used my same exact driveshaft with no modification.

This right here is where all the confusion comes in. With the tailshaft in 2WD you are correct but in 4WD configuration and bolting to an NP205 this where the lengths become different. I spent a lot of time making this same decision and am partially responsible for swaying his decision.

If you can mate a 4L80 to an NP205 without changing the transmisiions ovrer all length I would like to hear more? Maybe I've missed something?

[Thealien]

Here is a great little website
That shows the length differences of the transmissions at the tailshaft, flange (where the 4WD measurement is), monuting boss, and bellhousing width

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by Thealien

This right here is where all the confusion comes in. With the tailshaft in 2WD you are correct but in 4WD configuration and bolting to an NP205 this where the lengths become different. I spent a lot of time making this same decision and am partially responsible for swaying his decision.

If you can mate a 4L80 to an NP205 without changing the transmisiions ovrer all length I would like to hear more? Maybe I've missed something?

Yeah, maybe I should have been more clear that my example is my personal experience with a 2WD trans swap. Sorry I am not real familiar with the specifics of mating an 80 to a 205.

Sounds like you've got him covered

[Critter]

Thanks Thealien, while I was wasting time doing stupid stuff (I was at work ) you were taking care of me.

Wasted Income, like I said, I would much rather have a 4L80e, but I just don't think it would work out like I want as far as driveline length and adaptation issues are concerend. If it were 2wd then this would be a whole different story. So I'm thinking I can build my 4L65e up to a point that will easily handle my expections for this Blazer.

As far as the HP of my LQ4 goes, it was originally a 300HP Silverado 2500 engine and I would like to have it bumped up a little at the computer, but I don't plan on adding any hard parts. So after a computer tune say we are up to 330HP or so, I will still be under the 345 of the LQ9. By the way I am going to disagree with you about the engine/HP of the H2. I don't see anything saying it EVER had a LQ9. It went from a 325hp LQ4 straight to a 390 HP 6.2L. I don't trust Wikipedia to be 100% correct on everything, but I have done research and most everything they say here about the 6.0 and 6.2 seems to be accurate. If you find info otherwise I would love to see it.

Anyway, I appreciate and encourage the discussion on this, I think it helps everyone make decisions.

[mcbassin]

Not trying to hyjack your thread Terry, but it sounds like you guys know way more about these drivetrains than I have ever thought about. Anyway, I have an 07 4X4 with vortec max 6.0. I was thinking it is around 367hp bone stock. First question, what tranny does my truck have 4l60e/4l65/4l80? Next question,
I hate the torque management thing I was thinking about a custom tune but don't want to trash my warrenty (100k or 5 years), will my tranny hold up if I do a tune? thanks,
Mike

[Critter]

Originally Posted by mcbassin

Not trying to hyjack your thread Terry, but it sounds like you guys know way more about these drivetrains than I have ever thought about. Anyway, I have an 07 4X4 with vortec max 6.0. I was thinking it is around 367hp bone stock. First question, what tranny does my truck have 4l60e/4l65/4l80? Next question,
I hate the torque management thing I was thinking about a custom tune but don't want to trash my warrenty (100k or 5 years), will my tranny hold up if I do a tune? thanks,
Mike

I'm not an expert by any means, but I believe you have a 4L70e transmission. It basically looks like a 60e or 65e on the outside, but has some better goodies inside i.e. harder, stronger parts. It's the same transmission that GM put in the new GTO, by the way. Also, I think you are correct about your engine, it should be the L76 which does have 367 HP like you mentioned.

I might not be the best person to talk to about the torque managament issue as I have never messed with it myself. I have read that people do start to trash their transmissions pretty quick after they allow all that "MAX" torque to make its way into the tranny. I will promise you if you do it and GM finds out then you can kiss that warranty goodbye!

[Wasted Income]

Originally Posted by Critter

ThBy the way I am going to disagree with you about the engine/HP of the H2.

Ah, sonofabish. I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by mcbassin

I have an 07 4X4 with vortec max 6.0. I was thinking it is around 367hp bone stock. I hate the torque management thing I was thinking about a custom tune but don't want to trash my warrenty (100k or 5 years), will my tranny hold up if I do a tune? thanks,
Mike

TQ management sucks. However, it is there for a reason. When I tune a truck, I will usually reduce it or eliminate it if the customer insists, only in tow-haul. Most of my customers want a "sporty" shifting truck, but only sometimes, thus the tow-haul works perfectly for that.
If you remove TQ management for daily driving, and you drive the hell out of it, mark my word, you will be putting a trans in it, and it won't be covered by warranty, as critter said.

[Chevy-Art]

Originally Posted by Critter

LQ4 6.0L take out from a 2006 Silverado 2500 with 29K miles. It has all the front accessories, the flexplate, starter, computer, harness, DBW pedal, etc. I am HAPPY to say the least.

Where did you buy the engine? San Antonio area?

[Critter]

Originally Posted by Chevy-Art

Where did you buy the engine? San Antonio area?

No, I did check with Brothers on the south side, but all they had was higher mileage stuff (70K+) and they didn't really want to work with me on a complete pull-out. In fact that was the problem with almost all the salvage yards I called throughout TX, they wanted to sell me just the engine, oil pan to intake, no accessories or wire harness, computer, etc. I could purchase all that stuff as a kit, but they would just be pulling it off a shelf and bundling it together, no guarantee what vehicle it came off of or anything. So I started calling farther away from home with plans of having it shipped in. A lot of different groups in the Midwest suggested Schram for a complete pullout. I called them and they had what I was looking for. My requirements were a complete pullout, 2003+ LQ4, under 30K miles, and a reasonable price including shipping. I would recommend Schram to anyone looking for something similar, they were great to work with.

[Chevy-Art]

Cool, thanks. Here is another good place. East of San Antonio on 87, in Adkins. http://www.hpsalvage.com/

[my67chevytruck]

looking good, i like the route you and thealien are taking, and i want todo the same to the 69 k10 i just picked up.

[mcbassin]

Hows the weather in San Antone? Have you had any days to work on the new shop?

[Critter]

It was abnormally cold the last few days, but it was dry so no ice/snow for San Antonio. At one point a few nights ago it got down to 11... FAHRENHEIT...that's cold for us! It's warmer now and looks to be a nice week in the 50/60s. I had metal delivered on Monday with plans of my dad coming up this weekend to give me a hand on the shop, but it looks like rain is going to roll in. That may delay me.

[Critter]

Small Update...

Well, "Slow" is my middle name, but me and my brother finally got most of the shop structure done this weekend. I was only able to snap this one pic, but you get the idea. Notice the Critter and the 6.0 (wrapped in shrinkwrap) anxiously looking on as their new home makes some progress. This weekend I hope to start on the roof.

Also, I found a 14 bolt full floater down the road from me, I will be going to pick that up tomorrow. I now officially have more parts than enclosed storage space! Hopefully that will change over the next couple weeks.

[vtblazer]

Get that roof done, soon enough you'll be needing the shade.



I'm guessing you told us earlier in the thread but how big will the new space end up being?

[Critter]

Originally Posted by vtblazer

Get that roof done, soon enough you'll be needing the shade.



I'm guessing you told us earlier in the thread but how big will the new space end up being?

The actual shop floor itself will be 30x30 but I will also get one of the "bays" in the 3 car garage for my Dodge. It is large enough for some extra storage and I think I am also going to put the air compressor in there to free up some actual shop room. The whole thing will eventually get enclosed with a divider wall between the shop and garage.

No kidding about the shade! I'm sure it will be 100 degrees here before we know it.

[Critter]

I got my 14 bolt FF the other day, sorry no pics at the moment. It is the newer style which I am fine with because the price was more than right. Please see here...linky

[Jtrux]

Hurry up, I got stuff I need to store over there!