01-17-2012, 01:45 PM | #1026 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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1972 C10 Deluxe.Shortbed. 402/400. A/C, white interior, needs complete restore. Project Red, white and blue. Used to be a Longbed apperently. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=451950 1971 c10 step 250 3 OTT 1969 c30 TOW-MATER. 307 4 speed, holmes 440 body. http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=451082 2006 CTS-V LS2 6spd. |
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01-17-2012, 02:41 PM | #1027 |
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Re: Make it handle
When you said the lower the front spring eye mount is the lower the anti squat, in what relatino is that? Is that to where the shackle mounts on the frame or the shackle to the leaf? Would longer or shorter shackles make a difference? Is there a correct ratio people should shoot for? how do cal-tracs effect this? Thanks
Last edited by 69gmcc10; 01-17-2012 at 03:09 PM. |
01-17-2012, 07:03 PM | #1028 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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Hey Rob, I am thinking of doing this to another crossmember I have, and was thinking of sectioning the upper A-arm mount to drop the mounting points while I am at it. Good idea? How much should I drop the mounting location?
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01-17-2012, 07:55 PM | #1029 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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They are about 9-5/8" tall so they would be about 1-3/4" taller than the stock spindles. They can be bolted on with the use of C20 lower A-arms once fit with the ball joints to match the spindles and the matching upper ball joints will bolt into the stock upper A-arm. I have them on my 69 stepside but have quite a bit of work left to do before it is on the road so I don't know how it is going to work out alignment wise. There are other board members who have done the swap too but I don't know of any that have the truck on the road with them yet. It might be something to look into even if it might require moving the TRE attachment point a bit.
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01-17-2012, 09:17 PM | #1030 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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01-18-2012, 05:32 AM | #1031 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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One nice thing about these as they sit is that they work with 15" wheels so they are a good upgrade even for those who wish to use stock rally wheels on their trucks, even if only occasionally. I'd like to see an aluminum bearing hub designed for these spindles that will use some off the shelf large Wilwood slip on rotors and good calipers. I'm sure the 88-98 truck guys would appreciate that too.
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miSSed opportunity - ground up creation of an AWD 1994 454 SS that never was http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=795577 69 C10 shortbed stepside 400 small block - built like what a super sport truck could have been 69 K20 lwb TBI 350 4L60E NP208 14-bolt Dana-44 w/disc 68 Camaro SS / RS 500hp 439 inch roller cam big block 4L80E 79 Malibu TPI 350 4L60 w/ Z28 steering & sway bars |
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01-18-2012, 09:13 PM | #1032 |
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Re: Make it handle
Lets talk Anti-Squat. For the most part, this is a comparison number. A way to say, "this is where the rear suspension lifts the truck". You may not know exactly where your 'anti-squat' is, but understanding it, and using it as a chassis tuning tool, will help. To understand anti-squat, we need to define a few things. CG (center of gravity), this is the balance point of the truck, both front to back, and top to bottom. As an estimate, say 58% of the wheel base (58% nose wieght) appx 68", and for hieght, say the center of the cam, appx 24" for a dropped truck. IC (Instant Center) this is the point where the suspension forces push on the chassis. For a leaf suspesion, we use the center of the front spring eye, for trailing arms, use the center of the front pivit. CC (contact Center) The center of the contact patch of the rear tire. Now that you have these 'points', draw a line from the CC, throught the IC, and contiue on that line until you pass the front/rear balance point. So, what do you do with it? First, you need to 'scale' your CG line. At the ground, you have 0% anti-squat. At the CG, you have 100%. You need to calculate where your 'force line' crossed your 'scale'. I try to set most projects up at close to 100%, with tuning room on either side. Below 100% = more lift on the front of the truck, the rear will sink some, more force pushing forward. Above 100% = more lift on the rear of the truck, the tires plant firm, but less force is pushing forward. The goal is to get all the downforce you need to keep the tires planted, and still push the truck forward as hard as you can.
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01-19-2012, 02:04 AM | #1033 |
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Re: Make it handle
I am on pins and needles for the trailing arm conclusion.
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01-19-2012, 12:36 PM | #1034 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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Personally, I am sold on the trailing arm design for both ease of use and cost. After seeing the NASCAR style setup with the adaptability to variations in courses with the slightest adjustment, it just makes sense. But I am waiting to hear what Rob has to say. Seeing how I blame him for me wanting to add more performance to my build.
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01-19-2012, 12:54 PM | #1035 |
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Re: Make it handle
OK, OK, - now that your all gettin a grasp of this, I'll throw in the curve ball. At the monent, these drawings are static, but in real life, Anti Squat (AS) in dynamic, it moves as the the truck moves up/down. Think about the pictures of old drag cars. Remember the long shackles to raise the rear? Well, this also raised the front leaf mount, or IC, and raised the AS. Not as dumb as it looked. Drag racers have evolved from this trick, but it did work. With trailing arms, The front eye of the arm is the IC, and it's pretty far forward. So, low trucks can have low AS %'s. I hear it comin', NASCAR uses these, and their mounts are low?? Yes, but their smart. They use air pressure to plant the rear tire, and the low IC give them more forward push, less energy waisted. BTW, ever see a cup car leave the pits? Smokes the tires without any hesitation, IE - not much bite on the tire from the suspension.
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01-19-2012, 01:04 PM | #1036 |
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Re: Make it handle
So from a NASCAR perspective, the suspension is set up so the air pressure created at speed by the aerodynamics is what creates downforce for traction and why they spin out so quick when they aren't doing 170.
OK, so what about the setup for a road course. Certainly they aren't creating nearly the downforce in a road course that they do in an oval. So do they raise the IC to create more AS at the lower overall speed? <edit> Hey Rob, can you just set up an online course to cover all this material? Or better yet a weekend class with track days? <edit2> Might be a dumb question, but do the bends in a trailing arm matter, or are you looking just at the mount points when drawing your lines? Or does the bend in the back of the arm only for mounting surface? I want to plot out my suspension now and see where it turns up on the scale.
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01-19-2012, 01:16 PM | #1037 |
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Re: Make it handle
So from a drag racing perspective what is the best way to get this heavy old ***** to hook?
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01-19-2012, 02:18 PM | #1038 |
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Re: Make it handle
Rob thanks for the "diagrams" to go with the words, it helps solidify the ideas you discuss. So for a vehicle that is at stock height or closer to stock it is less important to flip the trailing arm brackets, blocking the rear is just a tactic to maintain ride quality and the lower you go the more important these factors becomes correct?
Last edited by 69gmcc10; 01-19-2012 at 02:23 PM. |
01-19-2012, 02:43 PM | #1039 |
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Re: Make it handle
Truck Arm looks the easiest. Although leafs and cal trac bars do a great job...
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01-19-2012, 07:35 PM | #1040 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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Move as much weight as you can to the back of the truck and lighten the front end as much as you can too. Put the weight as close to the rear axle as you can. It will react quicker this way. If you put it further back the reaction will be slower and the front end lift will be more profound wasting energy. You need tires with the largest contact patch you can fit on the truck and the softest compound you can get your hands on to start with though. A set of rock hard street radials won't hook in a nose heavy truck even with 150% anti-squat. You can make one of our trucks hook like it has claws on a set of 28x10.50 slicks but a set of 325/50-15 drag radials work pretty well too if you need to drive it on the street and the track. Slicks will also require aftermarket axles so that may influence your choice as well. My favorite pic
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miSSed opportunity - ground up creation of an AWD 1994 454 SS that never was http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=795577 69 C10 shortbed stepside 400 small block - built like what a super sport truck could have been 69 K20 lwb TBI 350 4L60E NP208 14-bolt Dana-44 w/disc 68 Camaro SS / RS 500hp 439 inch roller cam big block 4L80E 79 Malibu TPI 350 4L60 w/ Z28 steering & sway bars |
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01-19-2012, 11:25 PM | #1041 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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how do you increase anti squat on a truck arm. i wouldnt mind lifting the wheels a bit |
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01-20-2012, 05:30 AM | #1042 |
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Re: Make it handle
Also who owns that truck?
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01-20-2012, 09:03 AM | #1043 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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01-20-2012, 12:46 PM | #1044 |
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Re: Make it handle
great pict. and right on the mark. Anti Squat is like carb jetting. You want just enough to get a good plant of the tires, too much will waste energy and run slower. With a trailing arm truck, there are only a few ways to do it. I'm going on the assumption (I know) that the truck will stay at it's current ride hieght. 1) move the front trailing arm mount up. You can flip the stock mounts or buy aftermarket. This is the easiest. 2) More work here. Shorten the arms appx 6", use a 'johnny-joint' style pivit ball, move the crossmember back 6", and use adjustable mounts. This is for the serious guys. 3) move the CG down. Lower the motor/trans, and everthing else you can find. BUT, moving the CG back, while helping weight balance, will lower your AS. So, if you move wieght back, you need to raise the IC farther. Sinking in yet?
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01-20-2012, 12:48 PM | #1045 |
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Re: Make it handle
One more thing, if your going to do this right, you need to know where yor are. Its time to weigh and measure your truck.
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01-20-2012, 05:59 PM | #1046 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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The rear mount has the shackle. Shackle length in the rear will effect ride quality and the longer the shackle the more side to side flex there will be. On a truck a longer shackle will lower the rear, unless the shackle is flipped like the car style, which will then raise the rear. Think 70's car with giant m50's in the back and the gas tank showing because the ass end is sticking up. Longer shackles on jeeps was a common inexpensive way to get soe lift, but the shackle is weaker, so now those kits usually have a bar welded between the shackle plates to strengthen it. Shackle flip kits for trucks are available through the off road after market as a common lift option. Othere will remove the front spring mount of the rear axle and swap it into the rear mount, so the shackle can point downwards. I have also seen pics of the regular rear spring mount with a hole cut through the bottom for the shackle to go through, but I think this would really reduce the strength of the mount. Here is a typical shackle flip mount...
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01-20-2012, 06:13 PM | #1047 | |
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Re: Make it handle
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01-21-2012, 12:15 AM | #1048 |
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Re: Make it handle
djracer currently owns the truck. He has reconfigured and rebuilt the truck since he picked it up.
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=151718 Previously it was Tom Durham's truck which is from the time frame the pic was taken.
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miSSed opportunity - ground up creation of an AWD 1994 454 SS that never was http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/s...d.php?t=795577 69 C10 shortbed stepside 400 small block - built like what a super sport truck could have been 69 K20 lwb TBI 350 4L60E NP208 14-bolt Dana-44 w/disc 68 Camaro SS / RS 500hp 439 inch roller cam big block 4L80E 79 Malibu TPI 350 4L60 w/ Z28 steering & sway bars |
01-21-2012, 12:10 PM | #1049 |
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Re: Make it handle
ok so to increase the anti-squat if i was to install something like this
wouldnt it change the driveshaft angle as well? would you have to add a drop block to correct it?. if you flipped the brackets it would effectively do the same thing? the higher the trailing arm is in the crossmember the higher the ride height in the rear would be? |
01-21-2012, 01:51 PM | #1050 |
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Re: Make it handle
Raising the arms in the cross member will change the amount of anti squat and the pinion angle. the springs will set the ride hight
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