1974 C20 Soon to become a project...

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by chrapladm

Looking god so far. Any chance for a side picture of the truck in the afternoon sun?

Just curious to see how these wheels and tires look. Was thinking 20 22 F/R or possibly 22/24.

The truck is down for the count until I get the wiring harness installed. Hope to be back up and running in a couple of weeks or so. Will take more photos then and update.

[midnight rambler]

dave hows the wiring install going ? did you get the headlight bezels I like that look better to. might have to steal your idea.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by midnight rambler

dave hows the wiring install going ? did you get the headlight bezels I like that look better to. might have to steal your idea.

The harness should arrive any day. The New Vintage gauge cluster should arrive as well. I suspect we will start the install next week.

The headlight bezels are on the wish list waiting for purchase. I need to focus funds on getting the wiring all done and then getting the truck back to the transmission shop to dial in the up and down shift points.

The "mystery oil leak" looks to be a bad power steering pump... so a new one is on it's way from Summit.

I anticipate having BABA YAGA! back in the driveway in about two-three weeks where I can start replacing the sheet metal and other stuff I can do without offending the HOA. I really need to get the "temporary" can-o-pee off the bed and give it away, then take another look at BABA YAGA! with the new wheels and tires to decide if I still want to drop it or leave it as is... A nice hard cap will take the place of the can-o-pee.

[Super_Dave]

I got the new 700r4 shift indicator off Ebay (crappy photo but I am too lazy to retake it...). It wasn't listed as an import but it is from Taiwan. It looks real nice and was packaged very professionally. I will have to compare it to the old unit when I remove it, to see how it compares robust wise. It does feel a bit on the fragile side... hut I have never held an OEM unit, so I really don't know for sure - or how much stress an indicator actually incurs, and where (other than the cable and spring) when in operation.

[midnight rambler]

picking away at it ..I like where your going with it.

[Super_Dave]

Summit just arrived: (and yes, it the sun does shine in Oregon)

1. AAW Wiring Harness
2. New Vintage Speedometer Sending Unit for the 700r4
3. Summit Power Steering Pump

I have high expectations for the New Vintage gauge cluster I ordered... however, the Detroit company is a bit challenged on deliveries. I called the company and it took days to get a returned call. After answering my questions, I asked how long before they would ship the cluster, since it's not an inventory item at Summit. I was told they would ship 2-3 days after getting the order form Summit.

The order was placed on 5/9 and I have the Summit products, however, the New Vintage gauges cluster is slated to ship on 5/23??? Makes getting the dash harness wired in next week a bit of a challenge. I think I would look into whatever it would take to distribute a $700 set of gauges in a more efficient manner if it were my company, especially if Summit was one of my main distribution channels... just say'in.

[Super_Dave]

I just cancelled the order for the New Vintage gauge cluster. I have too many pieces in motion to have one vendor blow smoke up my pant leg and bring everything to a screeching halt.

I can't run their business, all I can do is vote with my pocket book and I just did... to the tune of $700.

[UKNOWME]

I've been considering using their gauges too but I think I've talked myself into the Dakota Digital VHX gauges

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by UKNOWME

I've been considering using their gauges too but I think I've talked myself into the Dakota Digital VHX gauges

Yeah, for the additional $100 it's worth getting an in-stock item from a proven company geared to meet demand.

Just wondering, does anyone make an OEM style Volt Meter gauge for the Squares instead of the AMP Meter? I would consider building a new analog Tachometer cluster if I could install an OEM style Volt gauge instead of AMPs...

[68post]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave

I am looking at this Round Headlight Bezel that also incorporates the running light below. I like it better than the separate running light, however, I need to know what other trim parts I need to get (if any) to tie the grill trim together.

The BROTHERS listing says "WILL FIT 73-76 BUT IS NOT CORRECT" - not being period correct doesn't bother me. All I want to know is can I use the rest of my grill trim or do I need to replace some of the lower trim? Can anyone clue me in?

You'll need to replace some lower trim I'd think, those are 1980 only. Look on some of the other suppliers websites for more info.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by 68post

You'll need to replace some lower trim I'd think, those are 1980 only. Look on some of the other suppliers websites for more info.

68post,

I agree. From what I can determine, the lower trim is wider and has cutouts that match up with the valance on the '74.

[Super_Dave]

Well... After another call to NVU about exactly what their Direct Fit package includes and what it doesn't, I restored my Summit order.

The gauges arrived about three hours ago. Following are my initial impressions.

NVU 73-87 Direct Fit - List Price: $899 - Summit Price: $799.

Packaging: Sucks.

They arrived with next to no padding in a larger than necessary box. NVU uses one brass nut to connect the gauge coupler on the back of the large gauges, to their card board holder. The Speedometer did not have a nut attached. Consequently, the Speedometer was flopping to hell and back inside the NVU box and inside the Summit box. The net result: The Tach has 8-10 nicks and scratches in the black bezel. No telling what will show when the Dash Bezel is installed. THERE IS NO WAY THE SHOP MONKEY AT NVU DIDN'T KNOW THAT THE SPEEDOMETER WAS TOSSED INTO THEIR BOX... LOOSE! There was bubble wrap but it wasn't even wrapped around the gauge cluster, it was tucked in behind the cluster with the hardware bag. Perhaps it was a customer return and no one bothered to repackage it properly, who knows.

Quality: Middle of the road. 6.5-7 out of 10

The coupler's on the back of the large gauges, are held on by two tiny brass nuts tightened onto threaded screw ends sticking out of the back of the gauge housing. The coupler's are injection moulded plastic that have several 'legs' that are designed to press evenly against the back of the gauge when installed, distributing the holding pressure around the full diameter of the gauge.

However, these 'legs' are all different lengths and were cut from the mould with dykes... leaving pointy ends needing trimming. Because of the poor quality, you will most likely run into the same issue I had - the threaded rod will not project far enough through the coupler to take the washer, lock washer and nut. So, you will have to trim all the legs shorter and file them flat. Totally unacceptable.

Instructions: Poor. What instructions?

The installation instructions are a one page affair with a poor quality black and white photo. There are some small text areas and arrows pointing to areas on the back of a gauge cluster that are decipherable with some effort.

It shows the High Beam wiring going to the Tachometer even though the kit does not have a provision for High Beam, according to NVU.

There is no information for the shift indicator, even though there is a provision for one on the housing.

The contents listing states that there is a "GM Speed Sender" which is not true, according to NVU. You have to purchase one for $40-$50 additional cost.

Installation instructions simply state:
Remove original panel and gauges.
Install new gauges in panel in any position.
Install on back of original panel as shown using fasteners included in kit.

The 'kit' consists of a plastic bag full of a variety of hardware. Over time I suspect I will be able to determine what goes where.

They go on to say that if your 'direct fit' kit isn't so 'direct fit' you might need to get a heat gun and do your own bending... Okaay Dokeey, how about a discount on the $900 Direct Fit?

Wiring: Can you say "I am an electrical engineer?"

There is next to nothing in the instructions as to how to wire the gauge cluster into your OEM or Aftermarket Harness. There are a lot of loose wires that need to terminate somewhere. This will most likely be the single largest time consuming area. A color coded schematic identifying wires and connections to harnesses would have been the minimum expectation.

All in all, I am going to hold the line on my 6.5-7 out of 10 initial impression.

1. NVU could have taken a lot better care packaging my $900 gauge cluster....
2. NVU could do some serious improvement in their documentation accuracy...
3. NVU could do a better job of providing more detailed and comprehensive instructions. Not everyone is an electrical engineer.
4. NVU needs to update their documentation to be more application specific and less generic - one size fits all.
5. NVU needs to seriously improve their QC. Their Injection Moulding sucks.

In some instances you DON"T get what you pay for... or expect.

[chrapladm]

Wow sorry to hear about your experience. BUT very glad you informed us. I am still a ways off from starting my project but most of the stuff your doing I will also be doing.

[funkatation]

I absolutely love my Dakota digital gauges. I haven't looked closely at those before, but I love the expandability of the DD system. I currently have the GSS (gear selector) and fan controller boxes. Their instructions were awesome too.

[CHIZZLER]

Great project. Maybe see you at the local show in a couple weeks. I will have my 40 pick up there.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by CHIZZLER

Great project. Maybe see you at the local show in a couple weeks. I will have my 40 pick up there.

That was my goal back in March before nearly severing a finger followed by a smoking wiring harness that put an end to that.

I will be falling head long into the rewiring next week, and since I need to run the wiring inside the fenders, now is the time to tear the front end off and pull wires, replace cancerous inner fenders, core support, battery box... R&R all the rubber mounts... plus keep my customers happy on the spur of the moment.

As a one man show without a shop, I had to coordinate with my carb guru on Cipole Road, to use his assistance and shop space. If I am real lucky, I might be a roller again in 2-3 weeks.

I will look for you in June. We never connected on the shop tour a year or more ago. Amazing what you can do when you have some room to work!

[Super_Dave]

Well... After several unfruitful hours trying to get the NVU 'In-Direct Fit Gauge Cluster' to fit on the back of my new OEM Dash Bezel, I have come to the conclusion that it isn't going to do the job as advertised. PLUS... given that the gauges were packaged so poorly and the Tachometer bezel was nicked and scratched, I don't have any recourse but to return the $900 set to Summit for a refund. I think NVU had a good idea but more effort should have been spent refining the concept and ensuring repeatable accuracy. It would not have take much, and perhaps they will one day come to this conclusion.

Issues:

The replacement rear housing on the NVU gauge cluster is laser cut and then heat formed to simulate the angle for the four system gauges. This is a hit or miss proposition at best, as you are at the mercy of the shop monkeys ability to heat the material in the same place and bend it to the same angle EVERY time. These are clearly not done on any jigs to control accuracy. NVU's response to poor QC and production techniques, is to tell you that you might have to re- heat and re-bend your $900 cluster to fit; something that should have been fully disclosed on their website and isn't... UNACCEPTABLE.

The large Speedometer and Tachometer gauge holes in the NVU replacement housing is laser cut to accept the gauges. As noted in a previous post and accompanying photos, their secure ring is actually an injection moulded part with random length legs that were cut from the injection with Dykes; requiring every leg to be re-cut and filed to the same length. For a $900 cluster this is... UNACCEPTABLE.

The large Speedometer and Tachometer gauge holes in the NVU replacement housing were not cut on the correct center to center dimension. Either the Tachometer fits over the back of the dash bezel or the Speedometer fits over the back, but NOT BOTH at the same time. The holes were laser cut 1/6"+ off center and there is nothing you can do to correct it except spend an inordinate amount of time filing and grinding one of the large gauge holes to line up with the back of the Dash Bezel. For a $900 cluster this is... UNACCEPTABLE.

The small system gauges have their own issues.
On the back of the Dash Bezel, the system gauge housings have a slight inward rounded crown on the lip; in other words, the lip is not flat.
The inner diameter of the NVU gauge bezels are too small to fit 'over' the housing lip and outer diameter is too large to fit 'inside' the housing lip. What ends up happening, is the gauges 'skate' around on the back of the housing without a hint of positive engagement. For a $900 cluster this is... UNACCEPTABLE.

When it's all said and done, all these issues; from extremely poor packing to poor manufacturing QC and extremely poor fit, this $900 gauge cluster is on it's way back.

Perhaps others have had great, resounding success and enjoy their $900 purchase. I have not and will not be entertaining any future purchases from NVU.

[Super_Dave]

Before sending the NVU Gauge Cluster back, I took the weekend to do a proof of concept.

In another thread, I discussed the option of a Front Install Gauge Cluster using the OEM Dash Bezel. I had taken some rudimentary preliminary measurements and determined that it should be feasible with certain size gauges.

Over the weekend, I took a Dremel to the OEM Dash Bezel. I knew there were some specific peculiarities to the bezel. Some could be compensated for and others would have to be lived with. The goal was to see if both were acceptable.

Peculiarities:

System Gauges

1. The top row are inset deeper than the bottom row by about .25".
2. They have a raised silver ring inside the recess that has to be dealt with if the gauge bezel doesn't cover it.
3. They have a cone shaped housing on the back that needs to be removed so the gauge lock ring can sit flush.
4. They needed to have the inner silver rings removed as the gauge bezel would not cover the ring.
5. The recesses needed something to fill in behind the gauge bezel once the inner ring was removed, as the gauge would fall all the way through.
6. The recess walls are flared on the left and 90° walls on the right.

Speedometer-Tachometer

1. They have all the same issues as the system gauges plus their front side bezel bases are oval, where as the system gauge bezel bases are not.
2. Also they do not have the same flare issues as the system gauges, making the main Dash Bezel face area essentially flat.

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Given these parameters, I set about cutting into the OEM Bezel.

1. I cut away the tapered backs of the system gauges.
2. I sanded the areas flat with a ROS.
3. I milled away the inner silver ring area, leaving about .125-.1875" flat land area.
4. I laser cut trim rings to slide over the back of the gauges, so they would not fall through the new holes.
5. I laser cut trim rings to slide over the back of the gauges, creating a base for the lock rings to tighten against.
6. I cut away the back of Speedometer and Tachometer housings, leaving the flat area intact.
7. I milled away the inner silver ring area, leaving about .125-.1875" flat land area.
8. I laser cut oval trim rings and slid them over the speedometer and tachometer and put them in the new holes.
9. I laser cut trim rings to slide over the back of the gauges, creating a base for the lock ring legs to tighten against.

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What I learned

1. It is possible to mount attractive gauges from the front of the OEM Dash Bezel.
2. If you take your time when trimming away the silver center rings on the OEM Dash Bezel, you will not gouge it like I did in a couple places. Using a Dremel with a .125" End Mill is not the tool of choice...
3. The front trim rings, used to keep the gauges from falling through and to conceal your cut, are better off milled from aluminum so it will not flex when tightening the locking rings on the back. The back trim rings can be anything that will stand up over time and not crack or deteriorate.
4. The black front trim rings were cut from black two ply acrylic (what I had on hand and not what I would use for a permanent install) which had a white back. The white shows up in the photos. Using a solid color material, or painted/powder coated aluminum front trim rings eliminates this issue.
5. There are a number of custom gauge companies and some will sell just the gauges and not lock you into a lot of questionable "direct fit" parts you don't need. Some, like Speedhut, use 1" deep gauges and have adopted the locking ring attachment concept on all the gauges, not just the 2.0625" system gauges. I would find this preferable to the NVU "legs" on their larger gauges.
6. The 2.0625" system gauges are the one's to use and the Speedometer and Tachometer need to be in the 4.75" diameter range measured at the front bezel. A smaller 3.375" diameter Speedometer and Tachometer could be used, you just need to adjust the width of your front trim ring.

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Assumptions still not proven

Since my project dash is still in the truck awaiting a stall to open up for the wiring harness install, I cannot prove the assumption that the OEM back housing will still fit on the back of the dash bezel.

If the back housing does fit, and the available 1" deep gauges lead me to believe it will, then you can retain your gear selection indicator and turn signal locations and hardware. If, for whatever reason, the back housing does not fit, and you want to retain the OEM gear selection indicator and turn signal functionality, you will need to modify the OEM back housing as need to accomplish the task.

[Super_Dave]

The $800 NVU Gauges arrived at the Summit facility several days ago. I am waiting to order different gauges, Speedhut most likely, until the credit appears back in my account.

I stopped by the shop this afternoon. The shop might have a stall open up sometime next week, so I can start pulling out wiring and get ready for the AAW Harness. While I was standing in the shop, looking across the parking lot to my project just sitting there, I notice a new puddle back by the transmission tail shaft. I asked Tony about it and he surmised it was the rear seal on the transmission. So, I crawled under the truck and sure enough, nice, fresh trans fluid.

Nice, $2200 and about 100 feet of driving and my new transmission has a platter size puddle under a truck that has been sitting for almost a month. My driving is measured by the foot, not the mile, since the trans was installed.

It's under warranty and I know they will stand behind it; it's just the thought of a power steering pump and now a rear trans seal going out in a truck that's just been sitting for weeks... not to mention how the wiring started to smoulder with the key on but the motor not running, which damn near burned my truck to the ground!

Then there are the supplier issues, crappy $800 gauge cluster that tied up funds for three weeks and now every time I stop by the shop, there's a new leak under my truck with $6-$7K in motor and trans.

Oh, and the Buick Regal I bought to get me around while the truck was out of commission getting all the work done... the same car the tow truck driver who was moving by nearly burned down truck back to the shop; has developed a random shudder in 1st gear and the 1-2 shift. It's random in occurrence and severity. So, now I have another issue to deal with.

I know there is a reason we fart around with old trucks and cars, but I can't seem to remember at the moment...

[mikentosh]

Just read through all the issues you had with the NVU gauges It looks like they definitely have a QC problem going on there. I think cause mine was a custom order that they provided photos before shipping I avoided almost all these issues, but I agree with you that at $900 for their standard offer there shouldn't be any of these problems.

Both Dakota and NVU have the same bit in their instructions about re-bending the accessory gauge pod. I'm wondering if GM changed that angle in the 81+ gauges which is why they are calling this out?

Anyway, I think you've got a great idea going with the Speedhut setup. Good luck!

[LiveAnimals]

I don't know if this question was answered or not but I recently put those headlight bezels on my 73 (I like the full chrome front). The only difference is the lower grill trim, as far as mounting locations I found them to be in all the same spots.

I removed all the necessary components from a 1979 C10 which I believe was the first year for those style bezels. To my knowledge they were on the 1980 trucks too but only on the lower trim models.

[Super_Dave]

Originally Posted by LiveAnimals

I don't know if this question was answered or not but I recently put those headlight bezels on my 73 (I like the full chrome front). The only difference is the lower grill trim, as far as mounting locations I found them to be in all the same spots.

I removed all the necessary components from a 1979 C10 which I believe was the first year for those style bezels. To my knowledge they were on the 1980 trucks too but only on the lower trim models.

Thanks for the info!

[Super_Dave]

I finally got my Speedhut Gauges. After a couple of additional weeks delay at the shop, I am now in a position to get the wiring harness installed and get the project back on the road.

This morning, I unpacked the gauges. As far as packing goes, Speedhut has NVU beat hands down. Their packing was tighter than a bulls butt in fly time! There is no way anything is going to get damaged unless it's an Act of God.

Unlike the poor NVU gauges, you can see how every gauge is secured with a locking ring. You can also see how the wiring is simple daisy chained capable and that gauges are 1" deep, making the install in every application a lot easier.

The locking rings operate very smooth and positive and lock down very tight. The finish on the CNC Bezel Rings is superb. The graphics are crisp and clear.

[Super_Dave]

Every gauge has it's own sealed package of installation wiring and hardware and comes with individual installation instructions that are printed clearly and concise. Unlike NVU, who put a single, blurry, photocopied piece of paper in their box, that wasn't even specific to the 'Direct Fit' $900 kit. Sad, really, really, sad...

NVU used crimped on gauge bezels, while Speedhut had CNC machined aluminum bezels that thread onto the front of their gauges. They come in different profiles and finishes, allowing you to swap out the bezels should you want to down the road. Their threaded bezels are very snug and positive engaging.

Touching on the graphics again. Speedhut has a few pre-designed options, as well as allowing you to provide your own designs. I decided to go with a Black Minimalist Theme and added the silver disc as a throwback to the '70's time period. What I did notice with NVU, is that their graphics were not sharp and crisp, nor were they vibrant. With their 'Direct Fit' carbon fiber graphics, I was expecting something that resembles carbon fiber but it was just a poor image on a matte finish paper, glued to the face.

The Speedhut gauges will have blue reverse lit graphics and needle halo. I am definitely pleased so far with the Speedhut gauges. They produced a custom set of high quality gauges within their 10-15 day estimate. Their price, with an additional $30 for 2 day air express delivery, was still $100 less that NVU, and the quality and overall experience is way beyond what NVU provides.

[midnight rambler]

I like that wish I had the money