Diagnosing a misfire

[1969c10joe]

call your local machine shop see if anyone has abandoned a block once theyget an estimate they abandon it

[1969c10joe]

ill never be offended if you dont take my ideas or advice im having fun

[1969c10joe]

circle track guys always know a shop who provides bulletproof bottom ends cheap those engines are tough to break just another idea

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by 1969c10joe

circle track guys always know a shop who provides bulletproof bottom ends cheap those engines are tough to break just another idea

That's a great idea actually. I'm new to this town so I don't know anyone but there is a circle track about 45 minutes away. Suppose I could go and ask some questions. I may just build one myself though, and see how it goes since it's my first short block

[Grumpy old man]

Buy a crate 383 and weld the hood shut ! Then concentrate on your frame , brakes and suspension .

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

Buy a crate 383 and weld the hood shut ! Then concentrate on your frame , brakes and suspension .

That would be fun too. It's certainly an option, but it would also be fun to put together a short block on my own

[Grumpy old man]

Investing money into any project be it a truck or a house the first thing you start with is a solid foundation , in this case a clean finished frame and suspension BEFORE you add go fast shiny parts . It's how it's supposed to be done , in today's instant gratification world it's seldom the case . How many times do you see in here daily someone bolt thousands of dollars of airbag suspension or 500 + HP to a drum brake rusty frame ? Just for outward appearances ? I've spent 3 years working on my restomod searching for the "right" parts it's been at considerable time and expense but in the end worth every dollar and hour I'll put in it . Choose your build plans carefully and use proven processes to get it to come to your end goal ! If anyone can just toss thousands of dollars into the wind good for them . I can't when I'm done I have to end up with a professional quality product with a value equal too or better than my investment of time and cash . Matt , you can't tell me you wouldn't be way further ahead in cash and time if you had not bothered with this welded , cracked short block and so so heads that's lasted less than a year than if you had started with a solid foundation and a crate 383 ? You've got a year in an engine that's toast . Professionally built engines don't turn 7,000 rpms weekly for long let alone every trip out the driveway and free revving an engine over 5,000 in the driveway will speed up the end fast . Old guys do certain things for a reason we've learned our lessons many years ago ... Take advantage of our past learning experiences and save yourself the costly education of being self taught !

[Mrturner1]

I was thinkin last night, and during the whole process from the very beginning when I just wanted to identify what cam I had, all the way til now I never really slowed down and made a plan, and took the time to do it all right. It's very very fast, and under the hood looks great with fresh paint and lots of shiney stuff, but it was bound to keep having issues and make me unsatisfied with the outcome after a lot of hard work and money invested. I think I'm gonna take this opportunity to really go through the whole process and draw up a plan, and then start/finish one chunk at a time and really do it right. I'll make a plan for suspension and brakes, then rear diff and trans which don't need much now, learn how to do body and paint plus a little interior work like a nice new seat and dash, and then build a nice cheap short block to put all my go fast parts on and finish it with a new wiring harness that has no splices or loose ends, just nice and clean and all soldered and shrink tubed. This is a real bummer but I'm pretty excited to see what the end result will look like.

[1969c10joe]

WELD THE HOOD SHUT thanks grumpy that made me laugh yeah im not convinced your rings are going im using cell phone hard to see

[1969c10joe]

mr turner I humbly suggest doing compression and leak down test. burning oil produces bluish smoke burning fuel more black

[1969c10joe]

married with children? congrats. I got this advice from a barber decades ago...if your wife is unhappy then you will be miserable

[1969c10joe]

rpm kills more engines than total power output grumpy is right consider going up in displacement eventually

[cleszkie]

Am I missing something here? ALL indications are that there is too much fuel being run through the engine, and multiple people have pointed this out on multiple occasions. Why not step down to a smaller carb as many have suggested????? If you are thinking of selling this truck as a package, it will bring more if it actually runs properly. All the pricey top end components you have in it now mean nothing to a potential buyer if they are mismatched, or don't produce the performance due to improper carburetion. Unless that is, the buyer is buying it to part out, at a parts truck price.

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by cleszkie

Am I missing something here? ALL indications are that there is too much fuel being run through the engine, and multiple people have pointed this out on multiple occasions. Why not step down to a smaller carb as many have suggested????? If you are thinking of selling this truck as a package, it will bring more if it actually runs properly. All the pricey top end components you have in it now mean nothing to a potential buyer if they are mismatched, or don't produce the performance due to improper carburetion. Unless that is, the buyer is buying it to part out, at a parts truck price.

I figured the rings had to be going if there was oil all over the spark plug. Call me crazy but that seems like an indicator to me. Maybe GrumpyOldMan is right and it's fuel, but I don't get why it looks like black oil.

[1969c10joe]

there is more than one way to get oil in combustion chamber Iknow a guy who thought he blew a gasket when it was a loose spark plug wire

[1969c10joe]

it wouldnt hurt to check fuel pressure and set floats or put your other carb on. call me crazy but run engine pull plug and smell it does it smell like fuel?

[1969c10joe]

are all your plugs fouled or just some?if only some then yes probably oil does thismake sense?

[Mrturner1]

Well I'm working out of town so I won't be able to wrench on the truck till later this week. But are you guys saying it's probably just too rich and that's the black liquid on the plug? I thought for sure it could only be oil but after reading a bit it does make sense, because the plugs were all black and sooty, and if raw fuel gets on them it would make a black liquid kinda like dirty oil.

I think to really know for sure I'm gonna have to break out my new compression tester and see what the cylinders look like.

Somebody said earlier that there shouldn't be any fuel visible in the sight window, and on mine there's fuel halfway up the sight window. So Holley experts, is this why it's so dang rich? My vacuum is 6"Hg and power valve is now a brand new 4.5 so I'm ok there. Jets are 70/76 but I don't think that's an issue on the idle circuit. Somebody also said I need a N shaped screw driver but I don't know what it was I was supposed to adjust with it

[Grumpy old man]

Your answering all you own questions
black sooty plugs = fuel
Strong fumes from exhaust = fuel
fuel 1/2 way up site window = fuel

Everyone wants to see you win this battle but I'm beginning to believe we are all getting punked ?
You'll never tune any engine if you can't read plugs correctly . Pull any plug and wipe it on a clean white rag you'll see soot not oil
smell it ? Any hint of fuel ?

Now I'm not trying to give you a hard time but... your not going to build a high performance engine your first time out no matter how much $ you throw at it . And getting crazy over valve lash settings is overboard . If the directions say .0020 that's what you set them at period . You don't play with the numbers . Bigger and badder doesn't always work especially when dealing with carbs . Many guys suggested to forget the cracked block , but hey what do we know ? Many said you don't need the 750 dp ...well what do we know ? More than a few said those heads were ify at best but ... what do we know ? Timing takes less than 10 minutes to set but ... what do we know ? .....Well we know one thing none of this makes sense ... listen to some of these guys , they all want to see it work for you but have to use the information they give you and not reinvent the wheel .....

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

Your answering all you own questions
black sooty plugs = fuel
Strong fumes from exhaust = fuel
fuel 1/2 way up site window = fuel

Everyone wants to see you win this battle but I'm beginning to believe we are all getting punked ?
You'll never tune any engine if you can't read plugs correctly . Pull any plug and wipe it on a clean white rag you'll see soot not oil
smell it ? Any hint of fuel ?

Now I'm not trying to give you a hard time but... your not going to build a high performance engine your first time out no matter how much $ you throw at it . And getting crazy over valve lash settings is overboard . If the directions say .0020 that's what you set them at period . You don't play with the numbers . Bigger and badder doesn't always work especially when dealing with carbs . Many guys suggested to forget the cracked block , but hey what do we know ? Many said you don't need the 750 dp ...well what do we know ? More than a few said those heads were ify at best but ... what do we know ? Timing takes less than 10 minutes to set but ... what do we know ? .....Well we know one thing none of this makes sense ... listen to some of these guys , they all want to see it work for you but have to use the information they give you and not reinvent the wheel .....

I don't get it, I didn't worry about the cracked block because you guys said it was fine, I thought I bought a 650 carb but was given the wrong one by the parts guys, and I can set timing in 3 minutes? Apperently I sound like I'm arguing because that's the reaction I'm getting, but I just thought the wet black stuff was oil and obviously I was wrong. I've been following advice and got a few tools to start checking compression and vacuum but I'm working out of town now so I can't go work on the truck. I don't get how I'm rubbin people the wrong way but I suppose it doesn't matter that much.

[davepl]

Originally Posted by Grumpy old man

Everyone wants to see you win this battle but I'm beginning to believe we are all getting punked ?
You'll never tune any engine if you can't read plugs correctly . Pull any plug and wipe it on a clean white rag you'll see soot not oil
smell it ? Any hint of fuel ?

Let's teach a man to fish, as it were. What's the difference between a wet black sooty plug and an oily plug? How do you tell? When you wipe it on a rag and they both leave black, which is oil and which is soot? Give him something to go on.

Now I'm not trying to give you a hard time but... your not going to build a high performance engine your first time out no matter how much $ you throw at it .

Testify! I'll be the choir...

And getting crazy over valve lash settings is overboard.

I doubt his lash is wrong but I think he does't fully grok it. I think he's probably setting them correctly but isn't confident because he doesn't really -know-. Is it fair to say that if it runs for 10 minutes without clatter the lash is OK? If it were too tight, it'd die or wipe a lobe? Tell him what he needs to know to be confident that lash isn't the problem. He's big on lash. He knows EOIC and so on but doesn't feel like he's certain he's doing it right (my guess, anyway).

Bigger and badder doesn't always work especially when dealing with carbs .

Bigger and badder is often badder, but not badder in a gooder way, just badder in a badder way like runs like crap. Keep preaching, I'm with you!

Well we know one thing none of this makes sense

What is the difference between the Master and the Beginner? The Master has failed more times than the Beginner has tried. So before the Beginner can become a Master, he has to get all his mistakes out. I, like Grumpy, probably advocate making those mistakes on cheap parts.

Unless you're secretly a trust fund baby, you can't afford to make the mistakes on trick parts and you can't afford to make the same mistake twice. Any while even animals learn from their own mistakes, a refined man learns from the mistakes of others - so ask a lot of questions and LISTEN to the advice. That doesn't mean it'll all be right, but it's probably coming from people around here that already made all those mistakes, or if not, know how to avoid them.

You can't build a Top Fuel motor until you can make a 1-cyl lawn mower run for 10 seasons. And I don't think you should build a full-roller, forged-everything screamer until you can build a wheezy old 307 that starts in -40F and purrs like it'd rather be running than not.

Start small. Make it perfect. Build on that. Repeat. Skipping steps is failure.

And Mr. Turner, no one is mad or making fun of you at all - to the contrary, I think everyone wants you to succeed. It's just that they'll give you all this well-thought out advice about taking it slow, small changes, and you'll come back with why you need a high-dollar, forged and CNC'd magic part, when all it takes is a little careful wrenching of basic parts. Some days I'd swear if your float was low we'd suggest you raise the float level and you'd be adamant that the solution is multi-port direct injection.

Case in point: a black plug. Could be oil, could be fuel. You could sort out which, you could do a compression or leakdown test to verify the rings are still good (I bet they're just fine), but you already had the catalog out with pictures of the new killer rotating assembly! You just can't throw money after that stuff until you have the ability to sort an oily plug from a fueled plug. Well you can, but not usually with great results. So you need to be able to (a) diagnose that stuff, (b) fix that stuff. Otherwise what happens when you've got a billet block and 4340 forged crank and Olliver rods and THEN your power valve fouls a plug? What then, an even better Callies crank? As you can see, it's chasing the wrong thing.

To put it more simply, we all want to see you succeed small first. Then go blow up your expensive parts, but we want you to have the success of building a mundane but RELIABLE powerplant first. Then when your projects are no longer mundane, they'll still be RELIABLE. Then you take all of those skills you acquired on the cheap motor to the expensive motor.

Trying to acquire those skills on the fly with expensive parts is a recipe for heartache that I don't think any of us looks forward to watching.

We're rooting for you. Root with us, not against us :-)

[Mrturner1]

Originally Posted by davepl

Some days I'd swear if your float was low we'd suggest you raise the float level and you'd be adamant that the solution is multi-port direct injection.

Case in point: a black plug. Could be oil, could be fuel. You could sort out which, you could do a compression or leakdown test to verify the rings are still good (I bet they're just fine), but you already had the catalog out with pictures of the new killer rotating assembly!

Now that is funny, you nailed that one right on the head. Summit package, Scat 9000 crank, forged pistons and forged H beam rods lol I guess I did jump to conclusions about the spark plug, but I really thought it was oil and probably assumed the worst. I pulled the plug at night and then went out of town to work the next morning, and didn't think to smell it. But thinking back, when I swiped my finger on it the wet black stuff was very very thin and watery, so maybe there's hope for my rings.

[1969c10joe]

dont worry i can tell the guys mean well takin a week and makin a plan thats cool check fuel psi and floats use those tools you have focus on carb for a while maybe save some money

[1969c10joe]

maybe rebuild a 350 with some upgraded parts take the trick parts out of truck install your carefully rebuilt better than stock into truck drive truck while building trick motor maybe paint truck sell truck put trick motor in
a nova take your family to the track??? just an idea

[Grumpy old man]

First off NO ONE is mad at you , I think what's happening is we all get frustrated when we aren't there to help and we can only "see" what pictures you post or write so we can only give you a somewhat educated guess as to what's happening and why . You've come a long way in a few short months so be happy about that ! This is all supposed to be fun so let's try to bring some of the fun back into all of it ! All I'll say is if we were there with you , You would be buying the beer and burgers ! You have the opportunity to walk away from it for a few days and when you get back to you'll have a new look and these issues won't be so dire .you can back down some of the settings and get it to run great for a while as you work on other systems if we can just get you to keep your foot out of the pedal a bit . I'd be willing to bet you can still have a QUICK cruiser but it's just not to the race truck stage yet .check out some of the guys rides and build threads that are building their trucks along the same lines as yours and you'll see some of the do's and don'ts along the way in their builds , Remember it's all supposed to be fun and we all get frustrated in our own builds , learn from others mistakes or misfortunes and avoid some pitfalls along the way . There are a lot of guys with really high line restomods pushing serious HP that may only turn it loose 1-2 times a summer they've learned you can't do it every time you need milk and bread from the local choke and puke .