Setting up my frame for drag racing (Altered)

[PA-IndianRider]

Most of you know the direction our C10 stepside p/u is going.... what started out as a simple "just it get it back on the road" to little by little into a strip machine capable of "some limited" street use.

Then also "little by little" we started getting into a drag race C10 with a 60's gasser flare, tilt frontend started us heading into this "nostaglic direction" then race car interior with full roll cage & aluminum floor, fenderwell exit headers.... and then the biggest decision of all was to add a "ladder bar" suspension..... and because of this a "complete BODY-OFF which will allow us to do so much more to the frame with the body/bed off.

Now for the BIG QUESTION .... I know from reading here that adding an engine plate requires the engine to be moved back "slightly" ..... so why NOT move it back even alittle (or a LOT) further..... reminiscent of the "gas altered" cars of the 60's (see how nostalgic I am...ha).

Now for an even BIGGER QUESTION (or crazier one some of you may be thinking ...ha) .....being I am going to have a frame shop do the ladder bar/back half why not also ALTER the frame buy shortening the wheel base "some"???

Then the bed could be shorten a few inches (the step between the bed & cap also modified) something like the A/FX cars of days gone by.

As many of you also know... I am NOT building this C10 to go as fast as I can go... YES I want it to be fast but I am also interested in the "FUN factor" as well. A fun vehicle that will not only be "at home" at NOSTALGIA races but also on the street at cruises/shows.

I know there must have been some good reasons for "engine setbacks" & "frame alterations"..... so I need some GOOD advice about what to do or NOT do.

[Marv D]

There comes a point where you have to ask yourself,,, what am I doing modding a stock frame to the 'ninth' degree. A 2x3 or round tube full chassis will be safer, MUCH lighter and in the end,, easier and possibly even cheaper. IMO it's one of those things tht you need good 'foresight' in where you are eventually going with this chassis, to decide if a full chassis or modding the one you have is best. All I can say is GOOD LUCK with that. I'd venture to say 90% of the vehicles out there on the race track started exactly like yours, and my truck,, a little piece here led to some things there, that forced a mod of this, that now changed how we have to do that..... and we end up butt deep in something we never dreamed we'd build.

Moving the motor back simply alters the weight bias (front to rear). In a truck where you have limited weight on the rear anyways, it's always a good thing. It takes a lot of motor and a lot of tricks to put a truck on the bumper. An underpowered truck that can't hit the tires and start the chassis pitch rotating will just spin. An easy solution to that is to take weight off the nose and put it on the rear (battery in the back, move the engine back, move the rear axle forward),, all accomplishing the same thing.

my 2cents anyways

[djracer]

Personally I'd move the motorback some but I'd keep the firewall and floorboard somewhat in tact with just the area needed for the mid plate removed and moved back. I also would leave the trailing arms under the truck.

[Super73]

Marv,

I agree with you. However, you can do certain things with the intention on moving it over to a new frame. IE my front cross member that I am building, when I build a new frame, I'll move it over from the old one.

As far as pitch rotation, holding the tires from spining. If you store enough energy in the front suspension, you can get away with a lot. It's just a matter of having an adjustable shock and taking the time to set it all up.

[PA-IndianRider]

Originally Posted by Marv D

........There comes a point where you have to ask yourself,,, what am I doing modding a stock frame to the 'ninth' degree. ..... and we end up butt deep in something we never dreamed we'd build .........

Marv, DJ & 73 .... I had a feeling the 3 of you would be the first to respond to my thread about my thoughts (daydreams, pipe dreams, etc) about our C10 and the direction we are heading.

Marv.... yeah... why do we do this.... I NEVER thought I'd be making plans to do this to our C10 when I agreed to buy this project truck off of my nephew. Things do SNOWBALL .... and as you said ... here I am BUTT DEEP wanting to do something I have never dreamt I would want to do.

All my life I have tried to be "different" when possible.... just like I ride an Indian...NOT a Harley.... maybe that's why I an so into wanting to build this C10 rather than just building a Nova, Camaro, etc...

So with that in mind I think it helps to understand why I also want to be "different" when it comes to how i want to put the C10 together.

Another part of the "WHY" puzzle is being the C10 is coming ALL the way apart I feel I feel MORE inclined to do things that I have never thought to do before.

I wish I could afford to just build a totally NEW 2 x 3 frame.... shorten the wheel base just enough to be noticed by people like you guys (most people wouldn't notice 3-4 inches outta the frame and the bed shortened) but I cannot afford to do that right now. Like 73 I can rationalize using this frame (or another stock frame) to get started with... mod it as i have described.... add the back-half ladder bar & straight front axle which could always be removed and used on a new 2 x 3 or tube chassis..... almost like the stock frame could be a "proving ground" for the mods I want to make.

I think all of you will agree that the ideas I'm kicking around a pretty radical and not necessarily popular nowadays. But then that's what I'm all about. I guess having grown up (i'm 61) while all that "gasser - altered - A/FX - etc" stuff was in it's heyday is why it's STILL stirring my hot rod juices.... WHAT is it that makes us like this??? What is is that makes us want to do it with "old trucks"??? (sounds like a good topic for a new thread)

So as I continue to work our way thru the planning stages of our project I am thinking LONG and hard about the things I have mentioned here.... the wheels are turning..... the new MillerMatic 180 is in the workshop wanting to be used .... now where is that "sawsall"?????

[hotrod 80]

Im with DJracer & Marv D on this one . IMHO If you are back halfing the truck the firewall and floor pan need to stay as intact as possible for inspection/cage/chassis cert . If going all out , it is time to go full tube. I am also a big fan of being different , but I run only bolt ons due to class rules .

[PA-IndianRider]

Originally Posted by hotrod 80

Im with DJracer & Marv D on this one . IMHO If you are back halfing the truck the firewall and floor pan need to stay as intact as possible for inspection/cage/chassis cert ......

There's something more thing to consider.... I have heard getting certified can be tough.... just one more thing to think about.

I have NO plans to remove the firewall but only to modify it as much as need be to accept the engine setback. That part of this idea I am NOT afraid of tackeling.... the "altered wheelbase" is.

I don't want to end up with something I cannot run anywhere because it is NOT done correctly and will NOT pass safety inspection/certification.... especially when it is NOT intended to be a 100% all out drag strip truck.

As for the floor (and some of the cab supports) here in Pennsylvania we have a common ailment called "rust" that has it's way more so here than in other locales. Even though the floor is "passable" for state inspection it is a far cry from what I want for this truck.... even as a cruiser.... let alone a drag racer. It's gotta go!!!

To say I am going "all out" might be right in concept but not in reality. I wish I could afford to go full tube chassis, etc, etc.... realistically if I wanted a 100% drag machine with tube chassis I buy one that is already done... at least a "roller" less engine/trans.... much cheaper that way with all the problems taken care of and certified. But I do not want that!!!!

Being "retired" and FINALLY having a workshop and the time to BUILD a "ride" instead of doing the "bolt on thing" which has been what I have done for the most part of all of my "hot rod years".

Looks like I have lots of planning and studying to do before I start the "frame part" of this project. Is this FUN or what!!!! : < ) Thanks for all the advice !!!!

[hotrod 80]

O.K. maybe i said that wrong . Just trying to remind you that a rollbar is good to 10 sec if the floor and firewall are not modified . A rollcage is required @10.99 if they are modified .

[Marv D]

Originally Posted by hotrod 80

O.K. maybe i said that wrong . Just trying to remind you that a rollbar is good to 10 sec if the floor and firewall are not modified . A rollcage is required @10.99 if they are modified .

And if a roll cage is required,, you HAVE to have a window net, if you alter 2 sq ft. of the floor or firewall, you have to have a SFI flexplate shield and trans shield. Probably the best advice I or anyone can give you is get a NHRA rule book and get intimate with the Super Street and SUperGas rules. Even tho it's a 10.90 / 9.90 class these cars push 8 seconds all the time and NHRA knows what kind of tricks it takes to get there. They have a ton of requirements for ANY car in S/ST or S/G, and every "IF" is refered to the general reg's. Before you cut anything, get yourself a rule book.

[PA-IndianRider]

I knew when these "latest ideas" popped into my head that I was opening a "can of worms."

The ideas I'm kicking around right now are NOT because I want to end up with a S/ST or S/G C10 capable of sub 9 second times.

These "new ideas" of mine are to build a good running C10 capable of consistant low 12 - high 11 second et's built using gasser/altered tricks from the earliest days of drag racing. Back when a 12 second car was considered "fast" and when these cars were either driven or towed to the strip by a car or truck using towing hubs & tow bar.

A C10 that can also be used for "VERY limited" street use as well as 1/4 mile racing at our local drag strips.

I have NO problem having to do the things required for IHRA/NHRA certification. In fact MANY if not MOST of those things I planned to do "anyway" from day one.....

I will strip the truck of all unnecessary weight, use light weigh parts and aluminum where possible - battery & fuel cell in the back of the bed - install a 12 point roll cage & safety harness - new aluminum floor pan (due to age & rust issues) - new recessed area for the firewall - engine plate - trans shield. This stuff is already on the list.... LONG BEORE any thoughts of "engine setback & altered wheelbase" popped into my "PISTON-HEAD" !!!!

Initially I thought to shorten the wheelbase & then "section" out 5" of the bed proportionally. With trusty "tape measure" in hand I did some measuring and realized it would be much better to just move up the rear fenders and let the 5" over hang the rear wheels ....making the bed look longer.

On our next trip to the drag strip I plan to talk to the Tech Inspectors about our C10 project .... and get a RULE BOOK which will be a very useful addition to the other parts/tools I need to build this "nostalgic looking" C10 hot rod truck.

Obviously a MUCH needed addition !!!!

[Super73]

With building a new frame you don't have to cut the floor or firewall if well planned.. I agree putting the safety equipment in it is a good idea. Just like the front cross member, I will be c-notching the rear of the factory in such a way that I can cut it out and reuse it on the new fram when I build it.

[PA-IndianRider]

Originally Posted by Super73

With building a new frame you don't have to cut the floor or firewall if well planned......

73 .... if I had a "southern C10" replacing the floor and/or firewall would not be an issue.

But most Pennyslvania vehicles, especially most trucks that were commonly used year round suffer from Winter salt damage .... our C10 is NO exception. The floor is definately going and the firewall I will modfy as needed.

I have always liked the "squared off type" firewall recess and transmission tunnel over the more common rounded/curved type.

The picture shows how a custom firewall recess was fitting to the existing firewall rather than completely replacing the entire firewall.

Lots of work to do..... even so looking forward to doing this.

[70rs/ss]

I think it'll be cool as heck, I just watched the Muscle car episode where they began an alter Falcon, I am diggin the idea. I think I'd use the stock trailing arms (or upgrade to some tough aftermarket ones, or heck build your own set) that way you just cut the rivets and slide the trailing arm crossmember forward. Put a C-notch in there to get the hump back into the frame and go from there. If you only want a 12 second ride the trailing arms are up to that and not using the ladder bar set-up will save some $$$ for the other stuff. As an alternative to the C-notch, I'd guess 5" out of the flat part of the frame and reweld the frame together (think longbed to shortbed conversions) then add the 5" to the rear of the frame, slide the trailing arm crossmember 5" forward and move the fenders 5" as well, then you have the altered wheelbase and have saved a lot of $$$$. Box the frame to ensure it is safe and go for it?! I am not as big time into racing as some of the other guys here, but from what I've seen these nearly stock trailing arms can handle a lot and work very well when set up right. I think the altered wheelbase and the engine set back with a solid axle will give you all the Dare 2 B Different (Car Craft Magazine has a whole section of the mag dedicated to doing things that are not mainstream, and I think this old P/U would fit there as well)status you are looking for and it will still perform they way you want it to!! Good Luck I am intently watching this, as I dig the Ole' School AFX cars!! My buddy started one when I was in college with a Falcon or Comet, can't remember but seeing the tires almost to the door was just TOO COOL.

[djracer]

Originally Posted by 70rs/ss

If you only want a 12 second ride the trailing arms are up to that and not using the ladder bar set-up will save some $$$ for the other stuff.

I have been 9.16@142 on trailing arms and will go well into the 8's with my next motor!

[PA-IndianRider]

Originally Posted by 70rs/ss

I think it'll be cool as heck, I just watched the Muscle car episode where they began an alter Falcon, I am diggin the idea..... I think the altered wheelbase and the engine set back with a solid axle will give you all the Dare 2 B Different (Car Craft Magazine has a whole section of the mag dedicated to doing things that are not mainstream, and I think this old P/U would fit there as well)status you are looking for and it will still perform they way you want it to!! Good Luck I am intently watching this, as I dig the Ole' School AFX cars!! My buddy started one when I was in college with a Falcon or Comet, can't remember but seeing the tires almost to the door was just TOO COOL.

As I near the time to actually start "chopping" into our C10 stepside I am quite content with the plans I have made for this project. I am also pleased with the comments of others about what I plan to do, both here on this forum & locally within my group of friends.

Even though ALL these ideas has extended by build time SIGNFICANTLY I am really looking forward to building this nostalgic looking hot rod. I have always wanted to have/build a gasser .... preferrably a 37-41 Willys coupe but with how they have become sooooo costly that has become next to impossible for me unless I hit the lottery some day....ha!!!

So for this C10 to have fallen in my lap (or should I say driveway) I am pleased to have come up with an idea that definately says "dare to be different". Another plus is rather than doing this to a Nova, Camaro, etc using an older pick-up will be unique and still be functional on the drag strip using the once popular gasser/altered principles.

As for moving the rear forward wheels 5" ....I did NOT come to that number using any mathematical formula or the like. At least for now, the 5" I want to move the rear wheels forward came from eliminating 1/2 of the amount of the step between the bed & cap.

As for the amount of "engine setback" I have yet to come up with a #number# for that. In fact I have NO idea about what to do or how much to do. ......So any ideas or suggestions will be appreciated!!!!!

It's not like I can just move the seat back as needed much like you can do in a car. I have seen what seems to be a LOT of engine set-back in cars (12 - 15") . Guess I have to take that part of the build one step (inch) at time.

I also will more than likely end up REMOVING the dash and replace it with a stainless or aluminum flat panel dash. Again.... time will tell.... thankfully the Internet is such a great resource info both current and from the past.....As are all the drag racers & other C10 owners on this Chevy p/u forum. Special thanks to everyone here.... this is going to be fun.... in addition to a lot of work.

[Marv D]

Do keep in mind, these altered wheelbase cars were the predicessor of the 'funny car' and were running in the 9's back in the day. In the early 70's real 'funny cars' were running 8.6's at 160.
Skip forward 3 decades.... My 2900 pound 64 Nova with a naturally aspirated SMALL BLOCK runs 9.teens at 145 with all steel fenders, roll up windows, original glass.... You don't need the altered wheelbase,, DJ is living proof of that.

If it's the look your building for, I think you should build it any way you like. Just be SURE and get a rule book. The raised chassis and altered wheelbase of yesteryear would no more pass tech than the man in the moon today. Please just be carefull that you don't spend a ton of effort and $'s building somethhing that get's turned away at tech.

[PA-IndianRider]

Originally Posted by Marv D

If it's the look your building for, I think you should build it any way you like. Just be SURE and get a rule book. The raised chassis and altered wheelbase of yesteryear would no more pass tech than the man in the moon today. Please just be carefull that you don't spend a ton of effort and $'s building something that get's turned away at tech.

Thanks Marv.... I really NEED the advice & especially the encouragement or discouragement as needed.

Like I said before I have moments of saying the "hell" with this C10 and go off and buy a "turn key". At this point I could still justify doing that being that many of the things I have purchased for this project could be applied to "any" car or sold. But then at this point in my life I would probably NEVER build one "my way".....

...... and YES.... it is VERY MUCH about the LOOK and not only having something different but also about having something I can be OK with the officals at our local drag strips and at home at any of the "many" nostalgia drags/reunions that are becoming more & more popular.

In addition to the help I have been getting here I have also been getting the advice of local drag racers.... guys I used to race with back in the late '60's at a place called Pittsburgh International Dragway (closed in '76).

I do realize the dangers of building a C10 that could not pass tech if I am not careful. I will be very cautious about notdoing that.

Plus I do NOT plan to build one of those super high all over gassers (like the Chevy pictured below) rather I am going to to have my C10 lowered in the rear with the front end up slightly higher than the rear (much like the attached picture with the rear slightly lower).

And as you know the engine set back will not be as much of an issue being it is still pretty common today. I not only plan to do this stuff not only "my way" but also taking into consideration what the "rules" dicate.

The advice of everyone here means a LOT to me..... thanks again to everyone.

[PA-IndianRider]

Here's a very NICE Chevy truck done "gasser style" .... NOT too radical ..... just enough to get the "message" across.

Seeing "completed" trucks makes me overwhelmed when I think about how much work I have to do and how LONG it is going to take.

Got another BIG Swap Meet to go to next weekend (Canfield, Ohio), new welder in the workshop..... so as soon as we get a couple of more things done around here it FINALLY be cab/bed-off time !!!